To circumsize my child, or not to, that... is the question

Spoiler! The post below may contain TMI.

Hey all,

So, as you might know already, I will be having my first child soon. He's due October 21st.

After getting past the naming debate (Devin), we're trying to decide whether or not to circumsize him, i.e. is it ethical?

Up until a few years ago, it was deemed that circumcision was healthier for the child. However, recently I've seen a few articles that state that uncircumsized children are just as healthy as those who are.

If you want to look at this from a broader perspective, the question is this: Am I ethically justified in performing ANY sort of cosmetic procedure on my child, especially one that has no strong medical benefits?

Ethically speaking, I'm inclined to say no. But culture, as well as the fact that uncircumsized penises *look gross* to me, would have me say yes instead.

What do the board regulars think?

Edit: Can a mod please fix the spelling on the title?

I don't know if this counts as an argument, but I'm glad I was. I'd hate to go through that procedure as an adult.

Is this really a question from you, LnG?

If so, Im surprised. Ethics and morals play no part...its entirely up to you and your family, period.

BTW, every time I see your name I think of Guns 'n' Roses (GnR). Dont ask why.

Circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex. That's a medical benefit.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Is this really a question from you, LnG?

If so, Im surprised. Ethics and morals play no part...its entirely up to you and your family, period.

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You think so DR?

I mean, let me put it this way. Say a family wishes to cut off a child's ear due to a cultural/religious/etc reason. Would you say that's ethically acceptable?

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Originally Posted by doobs

Circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex. That's a medical benefit.

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Ah, I see that now.

I guess I'm slightly worried that my child will be one of the rare cases where the surgery is botched. I'm not sure how I'd deal with that, if that were the case.

I had neither of my boys (one is 15, the other 8) circumcised. There have been NO, ZERO, NADA negative consequences from that decision. No infections, no teasing - nothing.

Forget morality or any other reasons - why put your son through that procedure if it isn't necessary?

I remember seeing this really gross Penn & Teller "Bullshit" where they argued over this.

This one guy who was circumsized put a metal weight on his penis so he could grow back his foreskin. Bleh.

Here's a helpful link: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/fac...rcumcision.htm

Anyway, think about it like this. You're not contemplating circumcising him so that his penis is beautiful to you, right? You're doing this for him. His best interests should prevail.

Is it healthier to be circumcised? I would say yes.

Do women get grossed out by uncircumcised penises? Yes, some of them do. Do any women get grossed out by circumcised penises? I don't think so, I've never heard of it.

So . . .

1. There are medical benefits.

2. Circumcision will likely help him emotionally and sexually when he's an adult. To a small degree, perhaps.

Obviously, there are some people who reasonably conclude that circumcision is painful and unnecessary. That's fine. A perfectly good reason not to do it.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Ah, I see that now.

I guess I'm slightly worried that my child will be one of the rare cases where the surgery is botched. I'm not sure how I'd deal with that, if that were the case.

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While I get the analogy youre trying to make, ears are used to "cup" sound so your ear drum can work its magic effectively.

Foreskin is used for ______.

Found it:

If you are circumsized, it may seem odd to your son if he isn't. Little boys identify with their dads. I don't think there's anything moral or ethical to it. Medical professionals debate the benefits of tonsillectomy, immunization all the time; gather all the info you can but ultimately it is up to you to make the best decision for your child. You have no reason to feel guilt over either decision.

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Originally Posted by doobs

Obviously, there are some people who reasonably conclude that circumcision is painful and unnecessary. That's fine. A perfectly good reason not to do it.

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Along that line, I am quite sure being passed through a pelvic bone hurts like hell, too. Or that having your umbilical cord tied might cause a slight discomfort...dont believe me? Push or pull reeeeeal hard on your belly button right now. Odd feeling, isnt it?

Circumcision isnt necessary and I dont pretend to think one should or should not, but using pain as a reason not to seems kind of weak to me.

Some of the majesty and wonder of early childhood (like as in, immediately post-birth) is that we as a species dont remember shit from it.

The only reason we know circumsicion hurts is because its pain, and pain is something we can relate to and remember from our own experience. If youve never broke your leg or even a bone in your body, you could still easily empathize with someone who has a cast on.

Babies cant do that. They feel pain, they just wont remember it or even be able to cognicize until much later about what something like that would feel like.

But again, this is your family's choice. Do as you will, the boy will be fine one way or the other.

my friend got his done when he was an adult 21 i think....they give u anesthesia or some cream on it and cut it....

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

While I get the analogy youre trying to make, ears are used to "cup" sound so your ear drum can work its magic effectively.

Foreskin is used for ______.

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Well, I've heard that keeping the foreskin increases the pleasure of sex.

But on another note, even if it had no medical drawbacks, is it ethical to take the risk of a botched surgery on?

(If you can't tell, I'm slightly nervous about becoming a father. :D)

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

my friend got his done when he was an adult 21 i think....they give u anesthesia or some cream on it and cut it....

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That's another point... theoretically he could get it done when he's older.

But, let's say you weren't circumsized. Would you be willing to go through that pain, and the risk of someone screwing up, in order to perform what is basically a cosmetic procedure? I'm not sure about you, but I'd probably say hell no.

Now I have to decide it for my kid. :) I probably will, and be happy that he won't remember it. But it's good to examine my thoughts against you guys here, and help me firm up or discard my beliefs. We've got a vast crowd of different beliefs here, and it's nice to hear from the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by mrsmaalox

If you are circumsized, it may seem odd to your son if he isn't. Little boys identify with their dads. I don't think there's anything moral or ethical to it. Medical professionals debate the benefits of tonsillectomy, immunization all the time; gather all the info you can but ultimately it is up to you to make the best decision for your child. You have no reason to feel guilt over either decision.

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I am circumcised, by boys are not. It has NEVER come up.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Well, I've heard that keeping the foreskin increases the pleasure of sex.

But on another note, even if it had no medical drawbacks, is it ethical to take the risk of a botched surgery on?

(If you can't tell, I'm slightly nervous about becoming a father. :D)

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They said that ribbed condoms are actually designed to mimic the feeling of having sex with a guy with foreskin. That Penn and Teller doc said it decreases the area of a penis by like 20 something percent.

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Originally Posted by 101A

I am circumcised, by boys are not. It has NEVER come up.

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If it's not too personal, might I ask why you and your spouse chose not to circumsize them?

First and foremost, congratulations on being a dad!

Where I come from, circumcision is pretty much only done by jewish people because of their tradition. Nobody else I know had it done (including me).
The first time I heard about any health benefits was when I came to the US.

I just wanted to give you a perspective from somebody from somewhere else.

I honestly think that this is just a minor issue. Whatever you do will probably be right, because you will be doing it with the best intentions for your child. And by the time he grows up and understands the meaning of doing it or not, he'll be thinking about pussy, and not much else...

Whatever you decide don't base the decision on what Penn & Teller think...jeez :rolleyes.

Personally I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

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Circumcision for baby boys: Weighing the pros and cons
If you have a baby boy, you'll need to decide whether to have him circumcised. Consider the pros and cons.
By Mayo Clinic staff

Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis. The procedure is fairly common in certain parts of the world, including the United States and Canada. But is it right for your son? Here's help making an informed decision.

Opinions are mixed
For some parents, circumcision is a religious ritual. It can also be a matter of family tradition, personal hygiene or preventive health care. For others, however, the procedure seems unnecessary or disfiguring.

In 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) issued a policy statement that says the benefits aren't strong enough to recommend routine circumcision for all male newborns. Today, the AAP leaves the decision up to parents — and supports use of pain relief for infants who have the procedure.

The benefits
Circumcision may have health benefits, including:

Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it easy to wash the penis — although it's simple to clean an uncircumcised penis, too.

Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The risk of urinary tract infections in the first year is low, but these infections may be up to 10 times as common in uncircumcised baby boys. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.

Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis may be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can also lead to inflammation of the head of the penis.

Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men.

Decreased risk of sexually transmitted diseases. Safe sexual practices remain essential, but circumcised men may have a slightly lower risk of certain sexually transmitted diseases — including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

The drawbacksCircumcision also has drawbacks, including:

Surgical risks. Excessive bleeding and infection are uncommon, but possible. The foreskin may be cut too short or too long or fail to heal properly. If the remaining foreskin reattaches to the end of the penis, minor surgery may be needed to correct it.

Pain. Circumcision hurts. Local anesthesia can block nerve sensations during the procedure.

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I've never known a girl who didn't think an uncircumcised penis was gross.

It is a personal if not religious choice but I don't recommend it.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

If it's not too personal, might I ask why you and your spouse chose not to circumsize them?

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Because it was unnecessary surgery. It causes immediate pain and a lack of pleasure (allegedly), for questionable, if any, benefits. It's been 15 years now, and I've never had reason to question the decision.

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Originally Posted by 101A

I am circumcised, by boys are not. It has NEVER come up.

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Not to be a prick, but it will when they see their first porn.

...hope I didnt step over any bounds there...

Oh wait, one of your boys is 15?

Well, nevermind, he's already seen his first porn (most likely).

BTW, the list provided by Snake Boy has a list of Cons - neither boy has had urinary tract infections, head infections, or inability to retract. (No STD's yet, either - but the 8 year old is too young for that to be an issue, and the 15 year old, well, too goofy).

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Oh wait, one of your boys is 15?

Well, nevermind, he's already seen his first porn (most likely).

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Yep.

Grandma caught him on HER computer!!!! That was a pleasant phone call from mom....

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Originally Posted by 101A

Yep.

Grandma caught him on HER computer!!!! That was a pleasant phone call from mom....

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:lmao

Classic.

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Originally Posted by 101A

Yep.

Grandma caught him on HER computer!!!! That was a pleasant phone call from mom....

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Awesome. :lmao

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I don't know if this counts as an argument, but I'm glad I was. I'd hate to go through that procedure as an adult.

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Same here.

I'm with 101A on this one. I am circumcized, but my son is not. We have had zero issues.

To put it simply, it is an unnecessary surgical procedure. The benefits do not clearly outweigh the risks unless you are Jewish or live in a high-HIV infection country.

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

I've never known a girl who didn't think an uncircumcised penis was gross.

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With modern health knowledge and practices, circumcision is not necessary in my opinion. The Torah had it as law, and like so many other laws, I believe was for health reason. We now have toilets, and don't go so far away and bury our excrement. For that reason, don't listen to the Bible Thumpers.

Snakeboy's reason I would agree is the most valid one. Not very many women accept the uncut men. That is the consensus of the women I have had unusual conversations with around the penis.

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Originally Posted by 101A

BTW, the list provided by Snake Boy has a list of Cons - neither boy has had urinary tract infections, head infections, or inability to retract.

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All of those things are just a higher risk factor not saying that any of it will happen. Odds are still higher that there will be no difference if they are or aren't circumcised.

My wife gets the NEJM and I usually look through it. I knew I had seen something about circumcision & std's recently. I found the abstract online so you can see some real numbers to the risk factors.

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Male Circumcision for the Prevention of HSV-2 and HPV Infections and Syphilis

ABSTRACT

Background Male circumcision significantly reduced the incidence of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection among men in three clinical trials. We assessed the efficacy of male circumcision for the prevention of herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2) and human papillomavirus (HPV) infections and syphilis in HIV-negative adolescent boys and men.

Methods We enrolled 5534 HIV-negative, uncircumcised male subjects between the ages of 15 and 49 years in two trials of male circumcision for the prevention of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections. Of these subjects, 3393 (61.3%) were HSV-2–seronegative at enrollment. Of the seronegative subjects, 1684 had been randomly assigned to undergo immediate circumcision (intervention group) and 1709 to undergo circumcision after 24 months (control group). At baseline and at 6, 12, and 24 months, we tested subjects for HSV-2 and HIV infection and syphilis, along with performing physical examinations and conducting interviews. In addition, we evaluated a subgroup of subjects for HPV infection at baseline and at 24 months.

Results At 24 months, the cumulative probability of HSV-2 seroconversion was 7.8% in the intervention group and 10.3% in the control group (adjusted hazard ratio in the intervention group, 0.72; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.56 to 0.92; P=0.008). The prevalence of high-risk HPV genotypes was 18.0% in the intervention group and 27.9% in the control group (adjusted risk ratio, 0.65; 95% CI, 0.46 to 0.90; P=0.009). However, no significant difference between the two study groups was observed in the incidence of syphilis (adjusted hazard ratio, 1.10; 95% CI, 0.75 to 1.65; P=0.44).

Conclusions In addition to decreasing the incidence of HIV infection, male circumcision significantly reduced the incidence of HSV-2 infection and the prevalence of HPV infection, findings that underscore the potential public health benefits of the procedure.

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This notion that women gross out at an uncircumsized penis is obviously a geographical thing as the vast majority of men in Europe are not circumsized unless they are Jewish or Muslim.

That being said, I left it up to my son's dad who is a physician- and he wanted it done.

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Originally Posted by ploto

This notion that women gross out at an uncircumsized penis is obviously a geographical thing as the vast majority of men in Europe are not circumsized unless they are Jewish or Muslim.

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Of course, but in American society that is how it is viewed. I would not want my son to miss out on blowjobs because of a decision I made. When he starts missing out on blowjobs because he got married, well, that's all his decision.

I had my kid's done.

But I couldn't get my doggie's ears cut... how cruel.

my wife thinks they are gross, btw... (ones not done).

I never thought of it as a religious thing.

Just do it. Babies don't remember anything.

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Originally Posted by SonOfAGun

I never thought of it as a religious thing.

Just do it. Babies don't remember anything.

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I agree.

So it's ok to beat a baby too, since they won't remember it.

Seems like a weird argument.

"It's BARBARIC !!"

http://www.thesocialcentre.com/images/kramer2.jpg

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Originally Posted by 4cc

you named him devin?

might as well cut his whole dick off

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It's an ambiguous gender name actually. And it's Irish, as I am. It was either that or Brady.

Oooh man this will draw out more heated debate than one would imagine.

My wife and I decided not to do so for either of our boys. (3 and 6 yrs)

Looking back now, subjecting them to the procedure would have been needlessly cruel, and we do not regret the decision in the slightest.

They are just fine, happy and healthy.

I figure if they ever grow up and really want to do the procedure themselves, they are free to do so, but it seems to be a decision for them, and not for us to make.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by 101A

Because it was unnecessary surgery. It causes immediate pain and a lack of pleasure (allegedly), for questionable, if any, benefits. It's been 15 years now, and I've never had reason to question the decision.

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Good to know. Thanks.

I wouldn't do it, or support any other cosmetic surgery.

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

Whatever you decide don't base the decision on what Penn & Teller think...jeez :rolleyes.

Personally I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

I've never known a girl who didn't think an uncircumcised penis was gross.

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There has actually been very little scientific research on this to my knowledge, and my wife and I did do a fairly thorough look through of the REAL evidence (the source studies, not what some jackass wrote about something he saw on a website run by some guy who he heard knew something about medicine) at the time.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So it's ok to beat a baby too, since they won't remember it.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Oooh man this will draw out more heated debate than one would imagine.

My wife and I decided not to do so for either of our boys. (3 and 6 yrs)

Looking back now, subjecting them to the procedure would have been needlessly cruel, and we do not regret the decision in the slightest.

They are just fine, happy and healthy.

I figure if they ever grow up and really want to do the procedure themselves, they are free to do so, but it seems to be a decision for them, and not for us to make.

Just my 2 cents.

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lol! no man would willingly subject himself to such a procedure.

It's either baby or bust.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

There has actually been very little scientific research on this to my knowledge, and my wife and I did do a fairly thorough look through of the REAL evidence (the source studies, not what some jackass wrote about something he saw on a website run by some guy who he heard knew something about medicine) at the time.

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Have you ever found anything to corroborate the point 101A made about decreased pleasure with the foreskin removed? That was a major point Penn & Teller made on their show, but testimony from one couple is hardly convincing.

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Originally Posted by SonOfAGun

lol! no man would willingly subject himself to such a procedure.

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I think Abraham did it himself, without anesthetic. I would totally respect a dudes covenant with God in that case. Otherwise it just seems to be a cash cow for môhels and hospitals.

But you are the parents, so it's up to you.

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Originally Posted by 4cc

you named him devin?

might as well cut his whole dick off

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He's also going to be a Celtics fan... Circumcision is probably the least of the kid's problems...

:lol

it's been proven that circumcised men have less sexual pleasure than uncircumsized one.
But you are the parents, it's your choice.

i cant believe this a thread

i would say yes because of the smegma factor, if anyone was ever to leak that secret to your friends

thats a lifetime of ruthless regulation inflicted upon you

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Have you ever found anything to corroborate the point 101A made about decreased pleasure with the foreskin removed? That was a major point Penn & Teller made on their show, but testimony from one couple is hardly convincing.

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I would simply think that because there's more skin then there'd be more size. More size would mean more pleasure.

I'd think that since ribbed condoms (for her pleasure) are based off an uncircumsized penis that would point towards that being true.

i wonder what argentina and esmegmol think about this?

I would figure that the majority of the international fans here are not circumcized.

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Originally Posted by ploto

i would figure that the majority of the international fans here are not circumcized.

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+1

If it isn't a religious thing, and you don't think the HIV stuff would be relevant to your kid (teach him safe sex) than I see no reason to do it.

If you choose to, find the most experienced Moyl you can find (most Doctors know who they are in the area) and do it while the child is very young...

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Originally Posted by SonOfAGun

lol! no man would willingly subject himself to such a procedure.

It's either baby or bust.

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Don't Muslims elect circumcision at 12ish/13ish?

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

It's an ambiguous gender name actually. And it's Irish, as I am. It was either that or Brady.

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Oh &$%#@ reminds me of that article of those parents in Sweden that named their kid some "gender neutral" name and dressed "it" in clothes that you couldnt tell if it was a boy/girl. :bang

http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.

Pop’s parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pop’s sex a secret. Aside from a select few – those who have changed the child’s diaper – nobody knows Pop’s gender; if anyone enquires, Pop’s parents simply say they don’t disclose this information.

In an interview with newspaper Svenska Dagbladet in March, the parents were quoted saying their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction.

“We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset,” Pop’s mother said. “It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead.”

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Originally Posted by PEP

Oh &$%#@ reminds me of that article of those parents in Sweden that named their kid some "gender neutral" name and dressed "it" in clothes that you couldnt tell if it was a boy/girl. :bang

http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.

Pop’s parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pop’s sex a secret. Aside from a select few – those who have changed the child’s diaper – nobody knows Pop’s gender; if anyone enquires, Pop’s parents simply say they don’t disclose this information.

In an interview with newspaper Svenska Dagbladet in March, the parents were quoted saying their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction.

“We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset,” Pop’s mother said. “It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead.”

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This is a cool social experiment. Unfortunately, without many more subjects, it will just be a statistical anomaly.

I don't know what today's medical practices are, but to do it at 8 days old was once said to be the best time to have it done. It has to do with the immune system being at peak and healing faster.

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Originally Posted by jacobdrj

Don't Muslims elect circumcision at 12ish/13ish?

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Damn. If they do, respect. That'll toughen you up quick.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Have you ever found anything to corroborate the point 101A made about decreased pleasure with the foreskin removed? That was a major point Penn & Teller made on their show, but testimony from one couple is hardly convincing.

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From my understanding, and obviously I'm not an expert, it's not so much that circumcision leads to decreased pleasure as it is that keeping the foreskin increases sensitivity and, therefore, leads to the potential for increased pleasure. If you're talking about pleasure for the person on the receiving end (and I'm guessing you're not), I really don't think it matters.

I did a quick survey of my female friends and they all agreed that the uncut penis is a major turn off.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

There has actually been very little scientific research on this to my knowledge, and my wife and I did do a fairly thorough look through of the REAL evidence (the source studies, not what some jackass wrote about something he saw on a website run by some guy who he heard knew something about medicine) at the time.

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The info I posted is not from some random website. The first is from the mayo clinic and is quite measured in listing the possible pros/cons. It does state up front...

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In 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) issued a policy statement that says the benefits aren't strong enough to recommend routine circumcision for all male newborns.

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Maybe you didn't actually read it.

The second is a REAL study from the New England Journal of Medicine. It has REAL numbers from the study. Maybe you didn't actually read it.

So no need to be a jackass.

I love the whole "lost sensitivity" argument. Does that organ really need MORE sensitivity?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I love the whole "lost sensitivity" argument. Does that organ really need MORE sensitivity?

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3 pump chump, eh?

Do it, it's a lot easier to clean and your wife isn't going to want to pull it back to get in and clean it when he's young.

I would say the child has no rights as an individual. It is totally reliant on the mother to live and isn't really aware of what is going on. A newborn is just a dumb as an adult dog. It takes some months before things like individualism and independence form, after which they have real rights.

It sounds worse than it is, but it's true. A newborn doesn't have personhood yet. Given that, the decision is totally yours.

I would do the cut if you're in the states so the kid doesn't feel weird when he finds out everyone in gym class looks different than him. Same thing going into adult life and dating.

Also, beating your child is obviously not OK because they won't remember it. That would leave obvious physical and psychological scars. The kid might not remember the situation, but people are going to question what's up when he cowers in a corner at the sight of his parents.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I did a quick survey of my female friends and they all agreed that the uncut penis is a major turn off.

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They are liars. If it is big enough who gives a damn?

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Originally Posted by MsMcGillyCutty

They are liars. If it is big enough who gives a damn?

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:lol I'm uncut and I've never had any complaints and have always received head.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

He's also going to be a Celtics fan... Circumcision is probably the least of the kid's problems...

:lol

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:lmao

Yeah, by the time he's old enough to understand what's going on, the Celtics will suck again. :)

This is coming from a woman's perspective. My 2nd husband came from a poor Mexican family who immigrated from Mexico right before he was born - so I'm not sure if it was a cultural thing or a financial thing - but he wasn't circumscised. It was a REALLY big turn off for me. I tried very hard to get over it, but I just found him gross looking. Needless to say, it caused a LOT of problems in the marriage and we ended up divorced. Not just over this issue - but it was a big factor because our sex life really suffered.

And - I didn't want to give him oral sex unless I knew he'd just showered - so no spontaneous wild sex for him! It just never seemed clean to me. It's such a big deal to me that it's a question I ask pretty quickly when I start dating a guy - because if he's uncut - the relationship ain't goin nowhere!

I have 3 sons - and all of them were circumcised - with no thought not to do it. I guess this is a lot of TMI - but my opinion is you should have it done.

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Originally Posted by Crookshanks

This is coming from a woman's perspective. My 2nd husband came from a poor Mexican family who immigrated from Mexico right before he was born - so I'm not sure if it was a cultural thing or a financial thing - but he wasn't circumscised. It was a REALLY big turn off for me. I tried very hard to get over it, but I just found him gross looking. Needless to say, it caused a LOT of problems in the marriage and we ended up divorced. Not just over this issue - but it was a big factor because our sex life really suffered.

And - I didn't want to give him oral sex unless I knew he'd just showered - so no spontaneous wild sex for him! It just never seemed clean to me. It's such a big deal to me that it's a question I ask pretty quickly when I start dating a guy - because if he's uncut - the relationship ain't goin nowhere!

I have 3 sons - and all of them were circumcised - with no thought not to do it. I guess this is a lot of TMI - but my opinion is you should have it done.

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Thanks for the honest response Crookshanks.

Wow -- if nothing this thread has proved that women can be just as shallow as men, if not more. It will certainly erase any potential problems with that if you cut the kid now.

You can't really argue if a woman thinks it's oogy -- but then women shouldn't act indignant when they get dumped for another woman whose tits don't sag and who doesn't have cellulite either.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

You can't really argue if a woman thinks it's oogy -- but then women shouldn't act indignant when they get dumped for another woman whose tits don't sag and who doesn't have cellulite either.

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No smegma on saggy tits.

Sound tasty to you Chump?

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Smegma was originally thought to be produced by sebaceous glands near the frenulum called Tyson's glands, however subsequent studies have failed to find these glands.[6] Wright states that smegma is produced from minute microscopic protrusions of the mucosal surface of the foreskin and that living cells constantly grow towards the surface, undergo fatty degeneration, separate off, and form smegma.[2] Parkash et al. found that smegma contains 26.6% fats and 13.3% proteins, which they judged to be consistent with necrotic epithelial debris.[6] Newly produced smegma has a smooth, moist texture. It is thought to be rich in squalene[7] and contain prostatic and seminal secretions, desquamated epithelial cells, and the mucin content of the urethral glands of Littré.[4] Some state that it contains anti-bacterial enzymes such as lysozyme and hormones such as androsterone,[3][4] though others dispute this.[8]

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

No smegma on saggy tits.

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Do you find a man's unwashed crotch otherwise fragrant and attractive if there is no foreskin?

Is it tasty to you?

I'm pretty neutral on the decision. It's just funny how cultures differ.

I'd be pissed if once I hit the age where I realized my dad was too liberal/anti-religious to circumcise me as a baby and now girls are grossed out by my wang.

Risky move with no real benefit.

So superficial conformity is important to you.

Fair enough.

It's as good a reason as any. Might as well do it. It's just a penis.

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Originally Posted by Crookshanks

This is coming from a woman's perspective. My 2nd husband came from a poor Mexican family who immigrated from Mexico right before he was born - so I'm not sure if it was a cultural thing or a financial thing - but he wasn't circumscised. It was a REALLY big turn off for me. I tried very hard to get over it, but I just found him gross looking. Needless to say, it caused a LOT of problems in the marriage and we ended up divorced. Not just over this issue - but it was a big factor because our sex life really suffered.

And - I didn't want to give him oral sex unless I knew he'd just showered - so no spontaneous wild sex for him! It just never seemed clean to me. It's such a big deal to me that it's a question I ask pretty quickly when I start dating a guy - because if he's uncut - the relationship ain't goin nowhere!

I have 3 sons - and all of them were circumcised - with no thought not to do it. I guess this is a lot of TMI - but my opinion is you should have it done.

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What the fuck did you marry him for then? That's pretty chickenshit.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So superficial conformity is important to you.

Fair enough.

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When it involves my wang, hellllsss yea.

Same reason those super remote Amazon/African tribes do all kinnnddds of crazy things down there.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

What the fuck did you marry him for then? That's pretty chickenshit.

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Like I said - I really tried my best to overcome my aversion, but I just really found his penis unattractive. And not to get too graphic - but it didn't do anything to add to my satisfaction.

I just think in America, circumcision is the accepted norm - and I wouldn't want my son to feel or look different - geez, puberty is difficult enough without adding THAT to it!

Thats an honest response and one I would think to be pretty much normal amongst American women.

One thing though...

Crook, have you ever noticed you end a majority of your posts with exclamation points? Its as if you feel your last point is your best point...that isnt always the case. When I read your posts, I find the voice in my mind rising toward the end...its just sort of weird.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Thats an honest response and one I would think to be pretty much normal amongst American women.

One thing though...

Crook, have you ever noticed you end a majority of your posts with exclamation points? Its as if you feel your last point is your best point...that isnt always the case. When I read your posts, I find the voice in my mind rising toward the end...its just sort of weird.

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I guess I never noticed that. When I talk, I use my hands, or I modulate my voice to make a point. Can't really do that here - so I guess that's why I use the exclamation point. But now that you've pointed it out - I'll be more aware of when and how I use it. Thanks.

As for the honest response - thanks for recognizing that certain things are just unattractive and we can't change our feelings. I mean you have to be attracted to a person to want to have a sexual relationship with them. Marriage involves a lot more than just physical attraction, but that's a big part of it - especially at the beginning of a relationship. Unfortunately, I was already emotionally involved before I found out he was uncircumcized - that's why I thought I could overcome my aversion.

But I learned from that - and now I just have to be blunt and ask the question early in a relationship - because there's no reason to let a guy think he's getting somewhere when he isn't.

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Originally Posted by Crookshanks

I guess I never noticed that. When I talk, I use my hands, or I modulate my voice to make a point. Can't really do that here - so I guess that's why I use the exclamation point. But now that you've pointed it out - I'll be more aware of when and how I use it. Thanks.

As for the honest response - thanks for recognizing that certain things are just unattractive and we can't change our feelings. I mean you have to be attracted to a person to want to have a sexual relationship with them. Marriage involves a lot more than just physical attraction, but that's a big part of it - especially at the beginning of a relationship. Unfortunately, I was already emotionally involved before I found out he was uncircumcized - that's why I thought I could overcome my aversion.

But I learned from that - and now I just have to be blunt and ask the question early in a relationship - because there's no reason to let a guy think he's getting somewhere when he isn't.

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Without the exclamation points, the end of your post was disappointing to me, there was no climactic build up. ;)

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Originally Posted by Crookshanks

I guess I never noticed that. When I talk, I use my hands, or I modulate my voice to make a point. Can't really do that here - so I guess that's why I use the exclamation point. But now that you've pointed it out - I'll be more aware of when and how I use it. Thanks.

As for the honest response - thanks for recognizing that certain things are just unattractive and we can't change our feelings. I mean you have to be attracted to a person to want to have a sexual relationship with them. Marriage involves a lot more than just physical attraction, but that's a big part of it - especially at the beginning of a relationship. Unfortunately, I was already emotionally involved before I found out he was uncircumcized - that's why I thought I could overcome my aversion.

But I learned from that - and now I just have to be blunt and ask the question early in a relationship - because there's no reason to let a guy think he's getting somewhere when he isn't.

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Understandable.

Oh, and without the exclamation points, it makes you seem much more clearheaded and rational. With them, it always seems like you're yelling. Save the exclamation points for when they're needed, and it will make them much more effective. :)

Nip it in the bud.

Crookshanks with a nice post


guys can see tit size and how big their ass is before their ask a girl out
girls can not did you get circumsized before going on a first date

You are cutting off a part of your child's body... think of it that way...

I guess I can see the "cleanliness" aspect of it 2000 years ago... when people took baths like once a MONTH... other than that it is fucking stupid to do...

Why is it your choice... it's your son's... if he wants it done... he can get it done later... if he doesn't want it done... it's not like he can get it reattached.