Should the military ban smoking?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...-smoking_N.htm

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WASHINGTON — Pentagon health experts are urging Defense Secretary Robert Gates to ban the use of tobacco by troops and end its sale on military property, a change that could dramatically alter a culture intertwined with smoking.
Jack Smith, head of the Pentagon's office of clinical and program policy, says he will recommend that Gates adopt proposals by a federal study that cites rising tobacco use and higher costs for the Pentagon and Department of Veterans Affairs as reasons for the ban.

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The Air Force has been providing smoking cessation classes for quite awhile, and everywhere I've been it's frowned on, especially since we're trying to become a leaner, fitter fighting force.

Being a non-smoker, I wouldn't mind this too much. Since our health care is paid for by the taxpayers, it makes sense as well. And once they got out of the military, they could smoke.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen, and soon.

I'm all for stripping people of their rights.

Nothing better after a long day of fighting and keeping your ass from getting blown away than a stick of gum.

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Originally Posted by BacktoBasics

I'm all for stripping people of their rights.

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B2B, have you been in the military? Most of our rights are stripped as is. :D

Whatever the military decides for itself is fine by me. In my mind that's more an administrative deal, than an welcome/unwelcome imposition of the state upon public behavior. Definitely related, but being as it touches the military, they can regulate it any old way they want IMO.

It rubs me the wrong way, but not enough to complain to anyone about it.

The smokers will take care of themselves regardless.


Just don't make "overseas contingency" quit, is all, I guess. Denying smokes to troops already in the field in the Iraq and Afghanistan seems a bit stingy to me.

Sure, why not? Lets put soldiers in the field devoid of choices on how to relax after, you know, being in combat.

No big deal, right?

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Sure, why not? Lets put soldiers in the field devoid of choices on how to relax after, you know, being in combat.

No big deal, right?

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Hey, that guy might have to carry me if I get injured. I don't want him having smoker's lungs! :D

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Being a non-smoker, I wouldn't mind this too much. Since our health care is paid for by the taxpayers, it makes sense as well. And once they got out of the military, they could smoke.


I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen, and soon.

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Of course you wouln't mind it. Might I suggest a ban on all fast food and alcoholic beverages as well. Oh, and no steaks. Red meat is unhealthy.



You know what the real irony is? During some consulting work I did at Wright Patterson, I was told by a flight surgeon that the type of person that can handle the most G-forces before getting G-lock is a short, stocky pilot with high cholesterol -- typically a slightly overweight, smoker. People who are super fit have very good circulation and thinner blood. Good for running marathons, bad for handling G-forces.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Of course you wouln't mind it. Might I suggest a ban on all fast food and alcoholic beverages as well. Oh, and no steaks. Red meat is unhealthy.



You know what the real irony is? During some consulting work I did at Wright Patterson, I was told by a flight surgeon that the type of person that can handle the most G-forces before getting G-lock is a short, stocky pilot with high cholesterol -- typically a slightly overweight, smoker. People who are super fit have very good circulation and thinner blood. Good for running marathons, bad for handling G-forces.

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If you tried to ban alcohol, the military would institute a coup. :lol

I wouldn't be surprised if they were to try to take away fast food places from on-base as well though. As I said up-thread, even the Air Force is going to twice-a-year fitness testing involving running, pushups and situps.

Plus, the military is downsizing where it can, mainly by replacing people with machines/technology where possible. Doesn't surprise me that they'd try to eliminate behavior that hurts one's health.

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Originally Posted by BacktoBasics

I'm all for stripping people of their rights.

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is that in the constitution

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

is that in the constitution

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sarcasm is not built properly into Oh Gee's constitution.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...-smoking_N.htm



The Air Force has been providing smoking cessation classes for quite awhile, and everywhere I've been it's frowned on, especially since we're trying to become a leaner, fitter fighting force.

Being a non-smoker, I wouldn't mind this too much. Since our health care is paid for by the taxpayers, it makes sense as well. And once they got out of the military, they could smoke.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen, and soon.

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As a non-smoker, it still bothers the hell out of me. I cannot fucking stand tobacco, I fucking hate breathing it, I can't stand the smell, it used to make me cough like hell when I was a kid, but that's asinine to strip someone's right to put what he wants into his own body.

This ban smoking is BEYOND carried away.

They should also ban that whole getting shot at thing.

I hear it can lead to death.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

As a non-smoker, it still bothers the hell out of me. I cannot fucking stand tobacco, I fucking hate breathing it, I can't stand the smell, it used to make me cough like hell when I was a kid, but that's asinine to strip someone's right to put what he wants into his own body.

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To be fair, we can't even grow our hair out long, or have a beard unless we're on leave. There's a lot of seemingly asinine rules in the military.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

To be fair, we can't even grow our hair out long, or have a beard unless we're on leave. There's a lot of seemingly asinine rules in the military.

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Its a good thing you're in the Air Farce, you wouldnt last one minute in the Corps.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

To be fair, we can't even grow our hair out long, or have a beard unless we're on leave. There's a lot of seemingly asinine rules in the military.

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you know that going in
you also have a HELL of a retirement plan

Good luck getting that shit passed 70 to 80 percent of current military are smokers. Many start when they join due to the stresses of their jobs.

Not me I only smoked weed and did acid when I was in the Navy. But I didn't inhale.

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Originally Posted by Heath Ledger

Good luck getting that shit passed 70 to 80 percent of current military are smokers. Many start when they join due to the stresses of their jobs.

Not me I only smoked weed and did acid when I was in the Navy. But I didn't inhale.

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so if you do not smoke you have no stress?

The smart ones handle their stress in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Heath Ledger

The smart ones handle their stress in other ways.

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and maybe the ban will help them
if I as a taxpayer have to pay for them to be buried because of cancer and their heath care
they should be banned from smoking

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Originally Posted by Heath Ledger

Good luck getting that shit passed 70 to 80 percent of current military are smokers. Many start when they join due to the stresses of their jobs.

Not me I only smoked weed and did acid when I was in the Navy. But I didn't inhale.

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I don't know where you get those statistics, but my 11 years tells me that there are roughly half. Not 3/4. IF stress brought the numbers up to 3/4 since I was in, then you are giving me reason to blame it on the additional military cuts during the Clinton years.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

If you tried to ban alcohol, the military would institute a coup. :lol

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You don't think the same would be true if they tried to ban smoking? Based on my time in, there are more smokers than non-smokers in the military...especially in high-stress jobs like aircraft maintenance.

Wouldn't it be ironic if they established this while the sitting president and Commander-in-Chief himself was still a smoker? :lol

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

To be fair, we can't even grow our hair out long, or have a beard unless we're on leave. There's a lot of seemingly asinine rules in the military.

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Those aren't assanine policies.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

As I said up-thread, even the Air Force is going to twice-a-year fitness testing involving running, pushups and situps.

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I think the bigger point with the physical fitness standards is that they recently put it as a pass/fail category on the yearly performance reports...reports that greatly impact your ability to advance to the next rank and ultimately impact your long-term career goals.

STILL...I don't think stricter physical fitness standards have anything to do with a ban on smoking. As is, the standards promote having a small waist and running fast (80% of the current test)....which says nothing about smoking.

I was watching a natl. geographic documentary about Green Berets staioned in Afghan and they had some epic beards.

Anyone in the military should be allowed to smoke. If you're willing to risk your life for your country, then you should have the right to smoke. Besides, doesn't smoking calm the nerves of soldiers? If soldiers are not allowed to smoke then Barry shouldn't be allowed to do it either.

They should allow them to smoke weed instead of tobacco...

This is complete and utter bull shit. These guys train to sustain themselves on three hours of sleep, with nothing more than coffee and cigarettes to keep them going. You take that shit away and you got more Tillman's getting their heads blown off by friendly fire.

Stupidest thing I've heard all fucking month.

Smoking doesn't calm your nerves, unless you're nervous due nicotine withdrawl. It only calms the craving created by cigarette addiction in the first place. That said, nicotine is a cheap stimulant that can keep you awake and improve alertness and quickness sometimes.

Over all, I think people should be able to smoke but it really doesn't calm your nerves unless you're an addict. The natural effect of nicotine is just the opposite of calming in fact...it is a stimulant.

Anti-tobacco people are the most ridiculous mother fuckers out there. I can understand tobacco prevention for kids, but once they hit 18 get the fuck out of their lives and let them smoke if they want to. Most will start before then if that's what they want. But Johnny Lee Congressman getting up there and saying soldiers shouldn't smoke not only should lose his seat, but also be kidnapped and have a few dozen nicotine patches slapped onto him like they did in "Thank You For Smoking" when they tried to kill Harvey Dent.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Smoking doesn't calm your nerves, unless you're nervous due nicotine withdrawl. It only calms the craving created by cigarette addiction in the first place. That said, nicotine is a cheap stimulant that can keep you awake and improve alertness and quickness sometimes.

Over all, I think people should be able to smoke but it really doesn't calm your nerves unless you're an addict. The natural effect of nicotine is just the opposite of calming in fact...it is a stimulant.

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I bet if you laced cigarettes with some brown china it would calm your nerves a little.

I think there are two different issues- one of allowing smoking and the other of the military actually selling cigarettes.

Smoking isn't a basic human right.

When you sign up with the military, they own you for the length of your enlistment. You are an investment -- not an employee. There are a buttload of things military enlistees can't do the general public can. So, man up and quit bitching.

Frankly, I don't care if they sell tobacco at commissary but, to me (a former smoker), it doesn't make sense to abet a destructive habit for those in who you've invested so much time and money in training.

so, bc they are paid with taxpayer money they shouldn't be allowed to smoke? i guess everyone on medicare/medicaid should be forced to quit as well.

wait til obama and gov healthcare comes on board...

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Originally Posted by BacktoBasics

I'm all for stripping people of their rights.

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:downspin:

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Originally Posted by dimsah

Nothing better after a long day of fighting and keeping your ass from getting blown away than a stick of gum.

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:lol

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

B2B, have you been in the military? Most of our rights are stripped as is. :D

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I have and can honestly say I enjoyed a lot of rights. Many of them in line with the constitution.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Hey, that guy might have to carry me if I get injured. I don't want him having smoker's lungs! :D

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and 'that guy' is still required to pass a pft. i smoked the whole time i was in, about a pack a day and still ran better than a lot of non smokers. shit one guy i worked with refused to even try to run bc his pull ups carried his score so that all he had to do was pass the run and still get a first class score. so do you want me who ran (no longer that good of shape) a 21 min 3 mile or the non smoker who ran a 28 three mile?

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

As a non-smoker, it still bothers the hell out of me. I cannot fucking stand tobacco, I fucking hate breathing it, I can't stand the smell, it used to make me cough like hell when I was a kid, but that's asinine to strip someone's right to put what he wants into his own body.

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WOW. finally a non smoker who is sensible. Congrats, I wish i could shake your hand.

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Originally Posted by SonOfAGun

They should also ban that whole getting shot at thing.

I hear it can lead to death.

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:lol

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

To be fair, we can't even grow our hair out long, or have a beard unless we're on leave. There's a lot of seemingly asinine rules in the military.

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Lots of jobs have rules about grooming, not just the military. Shit even hitler had a cropped stache because of gas masks. Also themain reason why professional pilots can't have facial hair.

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Originally Posted by PEP

Its a good thing you're in the Air Farce, you wouldnt last one minute in the Corps.

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Yes, that's why I'm not in the Corps. :lol

The Air Force is more corporate than the other military branches, for better and for worse.

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Originally Posted by AFBlue

Those aren't assanine policies.

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You're right; I spoke poorly. I know there's a good reason for them, but I'd say the benefits aren't as "tangible" as those from banning smoking.

Again, I'd like to note that the original article states that it won't be a full-stop. It will be grandfathered in over the space of many years, so people in NOW can still smoke, but people just getting into the military would have to be non-smokers.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Again, I'd like to note that the original article states that it won't be a full-stop. It will be grandfathered in over the space of many years, so people in NOW can still smoke, but people just getting into the military would have to be non-smokers.

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Something like that would be more appropriate. I am against such a ban, but I would say they have the right to.

Personally, I think pussies who hate the military are trying to find ways of making it harder to get new recruits. This would have an impact of recruitment!

The military imposes a minimum fitness requirement. If a man can still match those requirements while smoking, then they should be allowed to smoke. If smoking has lowered his fitness below the minimum, there are already things in place to fix that. Thats enough for me.

fucking stupid. they can kill and take bullets but not light a cigarrette?????

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Originally Posted by sam1617

The military imposes a minimum fitness requirement. If a man can still match those requirements while smoking, then they should be allowed to smoke. If smoking has lowered his fitness below the minimum, there are already things in place to fix that. Thats enough for me.

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True enough. One of my coworkers when I was in the Army used to razz me about smoking. He was years younger, and I would smoke him in the Physical Fitness testing!

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Originally Posted by nkdlunch

fucking stupid. they can kill and take bullets but not light a cigarrette?????

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No shit, right?

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Originally Posted by sam1617

The military imposes a minimum fitness requirement. If a man can still match those requirements while smoking, then they should be allowed to smoke. If smoking has lowered his fitness below the minimum, there are already things in place to fix that. Thats enough for me.

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Would that apply to women in the marines as well?


As for smoking, IIRC, as a GI you have few, if any rights. Most are signed away. I like the grandfather clause idea. I am a non smoker, and I believe in consistency. If weed is illegal, so should tobacco. If tobacco is legal, so should it be for weed, alcohol etc. If a person is an adult, they are an adult, not someone who can only vote but can't drink. If you can be drafted you should be able to drink.

I also am aware of the problems involved with worker safety. But if it is a private establishment it should be permitted per the owners' business plan. I am conflicted, but I can't get over the violation of the owners' rights, even at the cost of someone's job.

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Originally Posted by jacobdrj

Would that apply to women in the marines as well?

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Yes, women Marines should be able to smoke too, if they continue to match the physical requirements....

Nice deflection sam... :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by jacobdrj

Nice deflection sam... :rolleyes

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I thought that smoking in the military was still the topic ;)

In reality, if women are capable of fulfilling the same mental and physical requirements as men, then they should be permitted to serve in the same conditions. As it is, the Marine Corps basic training is different for men and women, and they do have different physical requirements, so I'm ok with women not being able to serve in combat situations.

It was an 'extreme' logical analogy used for the purpose of pushing the boundaries of the same line of reasoning. It is about smoking. You opened it up with the meritocracy comments, of which I agree with.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z4-I2c8peE...s400/DUTCH.jpg

AAAaaahhhnould in a movie... If he smoked that stogy anywhere near me, I'd shoot him...

Some perspective from the AirForce Times

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The main reason is economic. The Veterans AFfairs Department spent $5 billion to treat smoking-related emphysema in 2008, and the Military Health System spent about $564 million on tobacco-related costs in 2006-- almost as much as the $611 million in tobacco sales in military stores in 2005.

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Oh, and the percentages of smokers in the military:

Any Smoking:

Army - 38.2%
Navy - 32.4%
Marine Corps - 36.3%
Air Force - 23.3%

Any smokeless tobacco:

Army - 18.8%
Navy - 11.1%
Marine Corps - 22.3%
Air Force - 9.2%

Combined cigarette/smokeless tobacco initiation in military (meaning, they started once they got in)

Army - 55.2 %
Navy - 46.5%
Marine Corps - 49%
Air Force - 52.7%

Other detriments the article cites (but doesn't provide numbers for):

Smokers are more likely to drop out of service before fulfilling their enlistment commitments, worse day and night vision, miss more work, bleed more heavily after surgery, heal slower after injury and are at higher risk for infection.