Will Obama or any future president of America do anything about higher education?

I know this issue is probably not really high on the priority list right now but it matters to me. I went to college for 5 and a half years and I'm over 40,000 dollars in college loan debt that I will be paying back until I'm dead. I just wish that Obama or any future president would do something about this problem. There are millions of Americans that are in the same boat as me. They have to put themselves in debt with college loans just to get a college degree. That's not right or fair in my opinion. You shouldn't have to dig yourself a hole in debt just so you can get a college degree. Obama probably won't do anything about it. I will admit that I did make mistakes during my college years when it came to borrowing money for college. If I could go back and do it again, I probably would. It just makes me mad that I'm stuck with a huge amount of debt just so I could get a college degree. And what have I done with my college degree? Nothing. I wasted 5 and a half years in college and borrowed over 40,000 dollars and it all got me was a job at a retail store. The president or someone high up needs to make it where poor students can go to college at dirt cheap prices or at least make it where they don't have to be in tens of thousands of dollars in debt because of college loans. Why is it that you go to school for free from K-12th grade but when you get to college, you basically have to sell your soul to pay for it?
Anyone in the same boat as me?

so you fucked up and you want somebody else (oh, i'm sorry 'the government') to bail your miserable ass out?

and you didn't go to k-12 free. your parents paid taxes so your ass could go to school.

cry me a fucking river you fucking pussy.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I know this issue is probably not really high on the priority list right now but it matters to me. I went to college for 5 and a half years and I'm over 40,000 dollars in college loan debt that I will be paying back until I'm dead. I just wish that Obama or any future president would do something about this problem. There are millions of Americans that are in the same boat as me. They have to put themselves in debt with college loans just to get a college degree. That's not right or fair in my opinion. You shouldn't have to dig yourself a hole in debt just so you can get a college degree. Obama probably won't do anything about it. I will admit that I did make mistakes during my college years when it came to borrowing money for college. If I could go back and do it again, I probably would. It just makes me mad that I'm stuck with a huge amount of debt just so I could get a college degree. And what have I done with my college degree? Nothing. I wasted 5 and a half years in college and borrowed over 40,000 dollars and it all got me was a job at a retail store. The president or someone high up needs to make it where poor students can go to college at dirt cheap prices or at least make it where they don't have to be in tens of thousands of dollars in debt because of college loans. Why is it that you go to school for free from K-12th grade but when you get to college, you basically have to sell your soul to pay for it?
Anyone in the same boat as me?

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Obama had more loans then you then got lucky
his wife had more debts to

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

The president or someone high up needs to make it where poor students can go to college at dirt cheap prices

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If you are only $40k in debt after five years, you did go to college for a dirt cheap price.

Sounds like college wasn't the right path to take in life. I would of bailed at the first sign of needing to be there almost 6 years. Hindsight is 20/20.

Good luck finding people that support bailing you out $40k. That is several years of income tax from one person.

That K-12 education you got was anything but free. The taxpayers funded your high school diploma. If you want a college one you can pay for it yourself. If you don't feel you got your money's worth, then sorry. But that's your problem. Not the taxpayers.

Let me get this straight... you're asking us, the tax-paying american people, to fund six years of your college education that, you admit, only landed you a retail store job.

Hmm... no thanks.

I would add... I have what I would consider a better job than yours, and I don't have a college degree. So, something doesn't really jive there.

40k aint shit. the avg pilot "graduates" flight school with more than that. It costs at least that much to get your ratings/licenses. Not to mention the required college degree. And the awesome job you get making 12 bucks an hr as a flight instructor building hrs and the even better entry level job you make for "20" bucks/hr as a regional airline pilot.

Want free college? shoulda joined the armed forces. GI Bill right now is 12k/semester for texas plus housiing allowance and book stipend. Can be more/less for tuition depending on what state you go to school at.

Dang, who pissed in your kool-aid? I was just saying that it frustrates me that I owe that much on college loans. I'm sorry if that offends you. Besides, I am fuckin' right about college being too damn expensive. You shouldn't have to put yourself in debt just to get a piece of paper that says you graduated from college. And I have a stupid retail job because the fuckin job market is shitty. I was desperate and took whatever I could find. You try getting a good job when the unemployment rate is 9.5%. I did fuck up with my college experience. I wasted two years going to a judgmental shitty Baptist university. After that, I got some sense and went to a community for two semesters and paid for both semesters with my own money. Once I was done there, I transferred to Texas A&M at Commerce and graduated finally. My stupid high school teachers sucked ass on preparing me for college. All they cared about was if we passed the TAAS, TASP test, or whatever it's called now. I worked my ass off to get my damn college degree. A lot of people would have quit if they had been in my situation but I didn't. Besides, it would have been a waste. The best thing to do when you're going to attend college is: attend a community college for 1st two years then transfer over to a state university. If I had known that, I would have done that but I was a dumbass and I fucked myself by borrowing so much damn money. I need to write a book on that shit. Wouldn't you be pissed if you were a college graduate and you were stuck working at a store? No offense to people who work at stores but that's not something I want to do for the rest of my life. Some people might enjoy and love working at retail or grocery stores and that's cool but it's not for me.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

Dang, who pissed in your kool-aid? I was just saying that it frustrates me that I owe that much on college loans. I'm sorry if that offends you. Besides, I am fuckin' right about college being too damn expensive. You shouldn't have to put yourself in debt just to get a piece of paper that says you graduated from college. And I have a stupid retail job because the fuckin job market is shitty. I was desperate and took whatever I could find. You try getting a good job when the unemployment rate is 9.5%. I did fuck up with my college experience. I wasted two years going to a judgmental shitty Baptist university. After that, I got some sense and went to a community for two semesters and paid for both semesters with my own money. Once I was done there, I transferred to Texas A&M at Commerce and graduated finally. My stupid high school teachers sucked ass on preparing me for college. All they cared about was if we passed the TAAS, TASP test, or whatever it's called now. I worked my ass off to get my damn college degree. A lot of people would have quit if they had been in my situation but I didn't. Besides, it would have been a waste. The best thing to do when you're going to attend college is: attend a community college for 1st two years then transfer over to a state university. If I had known that, I would have done that but I was a dumbass and I fucked myself by borrowing so much damn money. I need to write a book on that shit. Wouldn't you be pissed if you were a college graduate and you were stuck working at a store? No offense to people who work at stores but that's not something I want to do for the rest of my life. Some people might enjoy and love working at retail or grocery stores and that's cool but it's not for me.

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What career did you graduate in?

I got a BS in psychology. I picked psychology because I've always found it interesting. The one bad thing about psychology is that you have to do massive amounts of schooling to make the big bucks.

Oh yeah, I don't know about you but 40K is a lot of fucking money to me. When you've lived in the upper part of the lower class and the lower part of the middle class all your life, that is a lot of money. 1,000 dollars is a lot to me. You have to realize that not everyone comes from wealthy families or families that are well off. Not everyone is able to have their mommy and daddy pay for their college tuition. And I tried the military thing. It didn't work out because of my anxiety and flat feet. People don't realize this but the military is still anal about flat feet. If the military would have let me in, I would have served time there to get a free college education but it didn't work out.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I got a BS in psychology. I picked psychology because I've always found it interesting. The one bad thing about psychology is that you have to do massive amounts of schooling to make the big bucks.

Oh yeah, I don't know about you but 40K is a lot of fucking money to me. When you've lived in the upper part of the lower class and the lower part of the middle class all your life, that is a lot of money. 1,000 dollars is a lot to me. You have to realize that not everyone comes from wealthy families or families that are well off. Not everyone is able to have their mommy and daddy pay for their college tuition. And I tried the military thing. It didn't work out because of my anxiety and flat feet. People don't realize this but the military is still anal about flat feet. If the military would have let me in, I would have served time there to get a free college education but it didn't work out.

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I think you're simply impatient. I understand you want to get a $120k/year job right off the bat, but a lot of times it's not like that. Especially in this economy. So you need to be patient. While you do your retail store work, see if you can get yourself some work experience on your field somewhere else. Look for internships and stuff like that. They won't pay big bucks (or much at all) to start with, but will help you build up your resume and connect yourself with people in your field that could eventually land you a better job.
It takes work and time to get ahead in life. But if you do work hard, once the economy turns around a bit, you'll do fine.
Let's revisit this 15-20 years from now, and let's see if you still owe that much, or anything at all.

120K a year? I'd be happy even if I was making between 25K to 35K. Well, I kinda knew that I wasn't going to get a dream job right after college. I just was always told by my shitty high school teachers that going to college and having a college degree makes your life better. And I wouldn't say I'm not patient. When you've gone without sex for 26 years, you definitely learn patience.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

Some people might enjoy and love working at retail or grocery stores and that's cool but it's not for me.

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Then shut up, stop whining and put more effort into getting into a field that is for you. Opportunity is always out there, you just got go after it.

$40k :rolleyes that's less than my truck cost.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

120K a year? I'd be happy even if I was making between 25K to 35K. Well, I kinda knew that I wasn't going to get a dream job right after college. I just was always told by my shitty high school teachers that going to college and having a college degree makes your life better. And I wouldn't say I'm not patient. When you've gone without sex for 26 years, you definitely learn patience.

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Your teachers were just giving you sound advice based on statistics. Statistically speaking, those with college degrees do generally better than those without.
You need to take this as a multi-tiered task. Your first tier was to go through school and earn your degree. Second tier is gaining experience and making a name for yourself. The last tier will hopefully be making a living off what you like, paying off what you owe, and living a fulfilling life.
It's a journey. It takes time.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I got a BS in psychology. I picked psychology because I've always found it interesting. The one bad thing about psychology is that you have to do massive amounts of schooling to make the big bucks.

Oh yeah, I don't know about you but 40K is a lot of fucking money to me. When you've lived in the upper part of the lower class and the lower part of the middle class all your life, that is a lot of money. 1,000 dollars is a lot to me. You have to realize that not everyone comes from wealthy families or families that are well off. Not everyone is able to have their mommy and daddy pay for their college tuition. And I tried the military thing. It didn't work out because of my anxiety and flat feet. People don't realize this but the military is still anal about flat feet. If the military would have let me in, I would have served time there to get a free college education but it didn't work out.

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Look son, one thing you are going to have to learn about life is none of us give half a shit about you. We don't care how hard you worked to get a degree. We don't care about how hard it is to find a job. You don't matter. Frankly, I'm annoyed that you couldn't figure out that as a member of the lower class, you're not supposed to get educated. You probably took a spot away from somebody with more money who deserved it more.

You are simply a pawn to be used by people who actually matter in this world. Now stop trying to make something of yourself and go get high on meth.

When I am (finally) done with college, I will be in a similar boat: 38k-42k in debt. That is after 7 years (and numerous internships).

And you know what? I am happy to pay it. Unlike a car, or an apartment, that 40k will have been value added. It might get my foot in the door somewhere. In the mean time, I will work for myself, and take internships where I can.

My siblings (one is going to a much more costly university, and another to the same) will be in far worse shape. But that's OK. One will be a bio-medical engineer, and the other a psychiatrist. Even 80k is nothing, as long as you are smart about your money.

It will suck paying for those loans for a while, but as long as you are at least part time in school, those loans are deferred. Think about getting your masters right away. I certainly will.

It would be nice if higher education was less expensive. I don't understand why some universities charge 400 dollars a credit hour. I just want a degree, not a sport arena, and certainly not some space-aged building that just hikes my tuition. I can understand private universities charging an arm and a leg, but a public one? Asinine. I am paying for red tape and bad professors' tenure. IMHO, that is wrong.

Solve that problem, and you will be well compensated my friend.

Jacob,

It sucks, and I empathize, but you have to keep fighting. Just stick with your job and look for openings.

Another good idea to get your foot in the door is to call around some local psychologists and ask if there is any mentoring program you could go through. Sure, it'd suck to work for free, but at least then you get some real-life experience.

It does not take an entire lifetime to pay back $40k...

But yeah, life sucks.

Let yours be a cautionary tale. If you live in a county with a community college, you can attend there for very little the first two years and stay at home. The majority of that cost can be retrieved through your tax credit. You can also work during community college to save up for the two years that will cost you more. If money is an issue, you do not have to attend a private school- which it sounds like you did at one time- and again many students work while they are in college. Just because loans are offered does not mean you should accept them.

In addition, programs exist that will pay back student loans for you. Look into those, especially with a psychology degree.

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Student Loan Forgiveness Programs for Charitable Volunteers
When you spread kindness and goodwill, VISTA (Volunteers in Service to America), the Peace Corps, and Americorps, and return the favor by paying off a percentage of your student loan.

VISTA rewards its volunteers with $4,725 after completing 1700 hours worth of service. VISTA’s mission is to eliminate hunger, illiteracy, poverty, and homelessness. Learn more by calling 1-800-942-2677.

The Peace Corps rewards it volunteers in more ways than just good feelings. The Corps will repay 15% of a volunteer’s qualified student loans for each year of service until 70% of the starting balance is repaid. To discuss this opportunity further, contact the Peace Corp at 1-800-424-8580.

Americorps is the branch of the Peace Corps that operates within the United States. Americorps rewards volunteers with $4,725 after 1 year of volunteer work. You can discuss this student loan forgiveness opportunity with an Americorps representative by calling 1-800-942-2677.

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Student Loan Forgiveness

VISTA's pretty stingy... 1700 hours worth of service for 4,725? That equals out to about 2.77 per hour...

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

If you are only $40k in debt after five years, you did go to college for a dirt cheap price.

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add a house and car
and you are 300k in debt easily

then people want to know why they are broke

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I know this issue is probably not really high on the priority list right now but it matters to me.

etc... etc...

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Well, without even yet reading other peoples responses yet...

Why do you want more government involvement?

They are the source or more problems than solutions.

We have had an educational crisis ever since the Department of Education was formed.

You know what the dirty secret is. There are only so many jobs available in each field. People talk about getting near 100% participation in college, but you still only have X number of jobs in a given field.

Got to be the best of the best for some fields. Otherwise, you just wasted your money.

more gov is not going to help
ask candana about their heath care

So you're gonna tell me that nothing should be none to higher education? The costs and interest rates on college loans should just stay the same? Poor students shouldn't receive any type of help at all? They should just suck it up and get fucked in the ass by a huge amount of debt right. Sometimes I wish there would be a scenario where I save Obama's life and he would owe me for life. That would be sweet.

I went to college hoping that it would change my life for the better. So far, it's kinda made it worse.

If you cannot afford college out of high school, you don't go to college.

Work for 2 years, then go to community college, then transfer to good state univ, then get an entry level job because you are green, then work your way up, then pay off debt as much as possible, then put money into appreciating assets, then get promotions, etc etc

Life is suppose to be hard. You turn out stronger than the rest if you can survive it.

Obama has talked about programs for doctors/nurses/teachers/etc where they go into low-end communities after school and work there for so many years to get their student loans forgiven.

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

So you're gonna tell me that nothing should be none to higher education? The costs and interest rates on college loans should just stay the same? Poor students shouldn't receive any type of help at all? They should just suck it up and get fucked in the ass by a huge amount of debt right. Sometimes I wish there would be a scenario where I save Obama's life and he would owe me for life. That would be sweet.

I went to college hoping that it would change my life for the better. So far, it's kinda made it worse.

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What would you like to do to make college more affordable? And who's going to have to pay for that? Presumably not people like you, so tell me, who do you think needs to be financially responsible for funding your college education?

You got a freaking psychology degree. You should have known that without at least a masters it was going to be worthless. If you didn't do some research before you blow 40k down the drain.

Is it really such a bad idea to have some of our tax dollars go to help make college more affordable? If college was more affordable, more people can get a job and possibly reduce the percentage of poverty and crime. Also welfare social programs will decline as well thus saving us money. It pays for itself.

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Originally Posted by jacobdrj

It would be nice if higher education was less expensive. I don't understand why some universities charge 400 dollars a credit hour. I just want a degree, not a sport arena, and certainly not some space-aged building that just hikes my tuition. I can understand private universities charging an arm and a leg, but a public one? Asinine. I am paying for red tape and bad professors' tenure. IMHO, that is wrong.

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You're probably not paying a lot of that for the tenured professors, as they're not paid huge salaries by any means. You're paying because as a college student you're a peon that universities can use to grow their own wealth. At my uni my money was going to shit like

1) Let's have a state of the art gym costing millions of dollars.
2) Let's build an overpriced physics building with architecture tailored to fit in with the overpriced library building and the overpriced performance hall and the overpriced bookstore and so on.
3) Let's pay out the ass to have famous guest speakers like Bill Clinton and Mikail Gorbachev or to get that douche Al Gore to teach for a quarter.

Not to mention the money for student groups. And then they went and fired the best computer science professor I ever had because his salary wasn't in the budget. For the same reason they went and fired a professor in the humanities department that was so well-liked and respected by his students that they protested on campus for days to get the school to keep him (never had him for a class though, so I can't personally comment). Then they lost my probability professor who was also a top-notch teacher with a Ph.D from Cambridge to a school with a much lesser reputation. It disgusts me to see the actual education as first on the chopping block when money becomes a concern to these schools.

This is one of the few times I'll ever agree with Jacob, but he has a bit of a point. Look at school textbooks: the prices are completely off the fucking wall. If you want a disgusting illustration of how badly students are exploited by textbook companies, check this thread I made a few months ago about a $60 book that was sold for about $110 when used for a class (the $60 version was from MIT Press, the $110 version from McGraw-Hill for classroom use)

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115596

Here's what a professor who used this textbook had to say:

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Originally Posted by Michael Vanier, professor of Computer Science at Caltech

http://www.amazon.com/Press-edition-...sin=0262011530

As I tell my students, the MIT press version uses dark blue ink (really violet) on the cover, whereas the McGraw-Hill book uses light blue ink. Obviously, light blue ink is so much more expensive than dark blue ink as to more than double the price of the entire book.

Snark aside, the real reason is that textbook publishers gouge the textbook-buying public, and specifically the bulk-buyers. I tried to bulk-buy the MIT Press version, hoping to save money for my students, but I was told that only the McGraw-Hill version could be purchased in bulk (e.g. 100 copies at a time, for a course). I find this system reprehensible, but don't blame the authors; they've put the entire contents of the book on the MIT Press website where it can be read for free. I've met two of the authors and they are wonderful people.

Note that there is exactly zero, zip, nada difference between the two editions. They are identical except for the cover.

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Are some colleges, book publishers, etc ripping students off? Possibly.
Does that means the government has to go in there and start regulating? Maybe.
But I think that's the extent of it.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Are some colleges, book publishers, etc ripping students off? Possibly.
Does that means the government has to go in there and start regulating? Maybe.
But I think that's the extent of it.

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10 years ago I used to think Rice sounded prohibitively expensive for something like $12,500 a year. Now scrub-ass UTSA is around $8G a year in tuition and fees for a reasonable courseload.

Study hard and get scholarships. There are so many out there that only get a few applicants. Scholarships will cut your student loans way down. I also suggest going to public schools where the education is just as good. I went to private school for my undergrad and a public school for my graduate degree. I graduated with 0 debt. I also worked throughout college. Nothing glorious, but I delievered pizzas, worked for mentally handicapped centers and I washed cars. It can be done.

amazon and half.com are two great sites that can lower your book expenses.

Its funny to hear people dismiss the cost of higher education in this thread with things like "why should we have to pay for it" because I'm fairly certain that people without college degrees cost more on average than the cost it would take to education our country's population properly. Its rampant nearsightedness that leads to everyone just looking at the upfront costs of having an educated population.

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Originally Posted by ducks

more gov is not going to help
ask candana about their heath care

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I do. They complain. Ask if they wish they had ours (US), they say 'Oh, hell no!'

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

You're probably not paying a lot of that for the tenured professors, as they're not paid huge salaries by any means. You're paying because as a college student you're a peon that universities can use to grow their own wealth. At my uni my money was going to shit like

1) Let's have a state of the art gym costing millions of dollars.
2) Let's build an overpriced physics building with architecture tailored to fit in with the overpriced library building and the overpriced performance hall and the overpriced bookstore and so on.
3) Let's pay out the ass to have famous guest speakers like Bill Clinton and Mikail Gorbachev or to get that douche Al Gore to teach for a quarter.

Not to mention the money for student groups. And then they went and fired the best computer science professor I ever had because his salary wasn't in the budget. For the same reason they went and fired a professor in the humanities department that was so well-liked and respected by his students that they protested on campus for days to get the school to keep him (never had him for a class though, so I can't personally comment). Then they lost my probability professor who was also a top-notch teacher with a Ph.D from Cambridge to a school with a much lesser reputation. It disgusts me to see the actual education as first on the chopping block when money becomes a concern to these schools.

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Well, that's the thing. I have absolutely no problem if the behaviors your are describing (albeit reprehensible) are being preformed by private institutions. Private universities are either a benevolent dictatorship or an outright corporation. But it is the State funded universities that have these exorbitant costs that do these things that pisses me off (my school is no exception). Being that these are taxpayer funded, they should be regulated. It is already 'big government' because the school is government.

I actually work for my university as well as a work study. I got to see some of the 'behind the scenes' stuff that goes on. They have money. They just spend it badly, as any government institution will tend to do.

Why is higher education so expensive?

1) It can be: In America, the number of jobs paying enough for a person to enter the middle class without a college degree has shrunk to virtually nil. Meanwhile, the population keeps growing. Supply and demand.

2) Stratification by school: For the most part, undergraduate degrees are the same from one school to another (graduate programs are something different altogether), but what is not the same is the prestige behind the name of the school on the diploma, and the networking opportunities among one's peer group at a school. There are a ton of companies out there who won't give you a first glance for a job unless you graduated from a particular school. Didn't matriculate at an Ivy? Don't bother asking.

Even my own company, which is hardly Goldman freaking Sachs, won't let you in the door if you got your degree from the University of Houston or Lamar rather than Texas or Texas A&M.

The more prestigious schools become vastly more valuable.

3) Arms race: This creates a vicious cycle where schools have to stay ahead in the race for prestige. Attracting a particular scholar or research project, or having the most up-to-date facilities, determines whether a school stays a "first-tier research school," or some backwater commuter school. And this filters all the way down the food chain to the UTSA's and TAMU-Commerces of the world. Schools are spending tons of money so they can build the best facilities and attract the best scholars (who by the way come in shorter and shorter supply as America declines), so they can turn around and charge students more to have those facilities.

3A) Arms race, part II: Gone are the days when students attended university because they were interested in learning. Students today are paying money (OK, their parents are paying money) to receive a product called a diploma with the name of the university on it, which they can then show to an interviewer and get hired somewhere. And students don't have any intention of living with a roommate in an 8 x 8 room with bunk beds and a little sink, with a bathroom down the hall. They don't have any intention of eating on long wooden benches in a mess hall with poor-quality food on plastic trays. There is no way they are going to work out in a drafty old convocation building with a couple of vent fans where the equipment consists of a medicine ball and some ancient free weights. They have no interest in old classrooms with peeling paint on the walls and wooden desks that have been there since 1965.

No, today's students are discriminating consumers, and they demand luxurious, private living spaces, complete with all the amenities, including granite countertops. They demand gourmet-quality food in aesthetically pleasing dining spaces. They demand the latest fitness facilities -- dozens of machines for weights, treadmills, elliptical machines, elevated tracks, rock-climbing walls, racquetball courts, beach volleyball, you name it, they demand it. They want comfortable well-padded theater seating in their new classrooms, complete with Wi-Fi and cupholders.

All those things cost money. Guess who pays for it?

4) Funding: State support for public universities is far less than it was in years past, so students would have to pick up the slack even if all the other craziness hadn't set in.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Even my own company, which is hardly Goldman freaking Sachs, won't let you in the door if you got your degree from the University of Houston or Lamar rather than Texas or Texas A&M.

The more prestigious schools become vastly more valuable.

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Thats fucked up right there. That should be a form of discrimination. Guy that went to UoH probably studied more than the guy that went to an Ivy League. Maybe he didnt want to go to an Ivy school to be close with his family. Or maybe it was family tradition to go to a certian school.

use half.com, go to community college and trasnfer. (community colleges are a joke you can walk into a room and get an A) and problem solved. chose a major that isnt impacted or that every single person in the world takes. people either take psych or sociology so you have a bunch of competition.

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Originally Posted by Creepn

Thats fucked up right there. That should be a form of discrimination. Guy that went to UoH probably studied more than the guy that went to an Ivy League. Maybe he didnt want to go to an Ivy school to be close with his family. Or maybe it was family tradition to go to a certian school.

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Part of it is "quality control" -- it is so hard to discern from an interview what a candidate is really like, and so companies play it safe.

Part of it is "class control" -- people from the upper class know that those graduating from the elite schools either are members of the upper class like them, or if they aren't in fact blue bloods, then they're probably quite exceptional if they're rubbing shoulders with the progeny of the elites.

On the topic of interviews -- at the one for the job I recently got, my boss was convinced that in hiring Extra Stout he was getting a engineer of moderate technical talent, but fantastic interpersonal and leadership skills.

Yeah, he kind of missed the mark there. :lol

You are in a similar boat with all those people who bought houses too big for them. Just like them, you were way too optimistic about the future. When you take out a big loan, you are making a big bet, pure and simple. Now you've lost the bet, so the bank has you by the gonads, and is hoping to squeeze you dry for as long as possible. The CEO's multi-multi-million salary depends on suckers like you.

What you need to do is do some real research for once, and figure out how you can get a break from the banks. And please, please don't pay out to any of these con artists who say they will be able to reduce your loan for a fee.

Along the way, you'll have to learn to live like a pauper: no iPhone, no eating out, no bars, no clubs, nothing above basic cable and internet and phone. Don't run up your credit card. The credit card companies want to suck you dry, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

So you're gonna tell me that nothing should be none to higher education? The costs and interest rates on college loans should just stay the same? Poor students shouldn't receive any type of help at all?

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There's plenty of help out there. Pell grants for example are not paid back. You just need to maintain good grades and so many credit hours.

Hard work is a necessary step. If one is not willing to work hard, then why should we waste tax dollars on them?

I could go on, but I'm low on time. Doing other things as I'm in the web as well.

Stop complaining and do what it takes.

There is one thing that Obama and fellow politicians can do that would help college graduates deal with their debt from loans. They should make it easier for students to get into programs that let you erase some of your college loan debt by volunteering. I know you're going to say "they already have those". Yes, they do exist but they are very specific on which type of loans they will erase or be counted toward to. If I tried to do that, it wouldn't work because I don't have the specific loans that you have to have in order to have them erased or have some money taken off of. I know that teaching will pay off your loans but like I said before, they only cover certain kinds of loans. And the type of loans that I have are not covered. Teaching and volunteering will not help me because my loans are not covered by the programs. You should be able to get into some type of volunteering program and have some part of loans erased or at least lessened. And the rules shouldn't be as strict as they are right now. They need to ease up on the specifications of the loans that are covered.

When 50 years down the line the United States is lagging far behind much of the world you need look no further than the attitudes in this thread.

There won't be a United States in 50 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

So you're gonna tell me that nothing should be none to higher education? The costs and interest rates on college loans should just stay the same? Poor students shouldn't receive any type of help at all? They should just suck it up and get fucked in the ass by a huge amount of debt right. Sometimes I wish there would be a scenario where I save Obama's life and he would owe me for life. That would be sweet.

I went to college hoping that it would change my life for the better. So far, it's kinda made it worse.

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Government does give out grants, like Pell grants. If anything, school is one place where it's pretty libertarian as far as funding goes... you have to rely on the kindness of strangers.

Besides, if the government hands out a ton, then schools will just raise their prices. What would you have, government mandated colleges like public schools? That's the only sort of 'answer' I could see from your request.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

There is one thing that Obama and fellow politicians can do that would help college graduates deal with their debt from loans. They should make it easier for students to get into programs that let you erase some of your college loan debt by volunteering. I know you're going to say "they already have those". Yes, they do exist but they are very specific on which type of loans they will erase or be counted toward to. If I tried to do that, it wouldn't work because I don't have the specific loans that you have to have in order to have them erased or have some money taken off of. I know that teaching will pay off your loans but like I said before, they only cover certain kinds of loans. And the type of loans that I have are not covered. Teaching and volunteering will not help me because my loans are not covered by the programs. You should be able to get into some type of volunteering program and have some part of loans erased or at least lessened. And the rules shouldn't be as strict as they are right now. They need to ease up on the specifications of the loans that are covered.

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What type of loans do you have? Did you borrow from a guy named "Vinny the Shark"? :D

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

There won't be a United States in 50 years.

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No shit. At least not like we know it. With all the people thinking they should get things for free, who's going to be left to pay for it all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Besides, if the government hands out a ton, then schools will just raise their prices. What would you have, government mandated colleges like public schools? That's the only sort of 'answer' I could see from your request.

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That's actually one reason education costs so much. There's always government, with deep pockets, killing the real supply and demand economics of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I got a BS in psychology. I picked psychology because I've always found it interesting. The one bad thing about psychology is that you have to do massive amounts of schooling to make the big bucks.

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Look, I don't mean to be an ass about this, but what were you thinking? Did you have a career plan? It doesn't look like it. To take a subject just because you like it, without assessing the probability of getting anywhere was not a smart move. I pay more than $10 an hour in taxes, and the thought of bailing someone out for their decisions infuriates me. I pay too damn much already to have my wealth redistributed. Life is a mix of talent, hard work, and luck. Not everyone can succeed. Sorry if I'm not too sympathetic, but someone has to work retail. Hell, I screwed up with stocks and am paying back $80K in back taxes. I skipped paying taxes on a sale, was going to on the next, and the marker fucked me. It's like paying a mortgage. My life's not as easy as I'd like, and I sure in hell don't want my tax dollars bailing people out unless I get that $80k bailout myself.

But you know what. I put my self there, and I will pay it off. Be a man dammit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

There is one thing that Obama and fellow politicians can do that would help college graduates deal with their debt from loans. They should make it easier for students to get into programs that let you erase some of your college loan debt by volunteering. I know you're going to say "they already have those". Yes, they do exist but they are very specific on which type of loans they will erase or be counted toward to. If I tried to do that, it wouldn't work because I don't have the specific loans that you have to have in order to have them erased or have some money taken off of. I know that teaching will pay off your loans but like I said before, they only cover certain kinds of loans. And the type of loans that I have are not covered. Teaching and volunteering will not help me because my loans are not covered by the programs. You should be able to get into some type of volunteering program and have some part of loans erased or at least lessened. And the rules shouldn't be as strict as they are right now. They need to ease up on the specifications of the loans that are covered.

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What difference is that going to make? You still end up working off your loan. If you have time to go volunteer and work for free you have time to take a second job part time to increase your earnings so that you can pay back your loans.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Why is higher education so expensive?

1) It can be: In America, the number of jobs paying enough for a person to enter the middle class without a college degree has shrunk to virtually nil. Meanwhile, the population keeps growing. Supply and demand.

2) Stratification by school: For the most part, undergraduate degrees are the same from one school to another (graduate programs are something different altogether), but what is not the same is the prestige behind the name of the school on the diploma, and the networking opportunities among one's peer group at a school. There are a ton of companies out there who won't give you a first glance for a job unless you graduated from a particular school. Didn't matriculate at an Ivy? Don't bother asking.

Even my own company, which is hardly Goldman freaking Sachs, won't let you in the door if you got your degree from the University of Houston or Lamar rather than Texas or Texas A&M.

The more prestigious schools become vastly more valuable.

3) Arms race: This creates a vicious cycle where schools have to stay ahead in the race for prestige. Attracting a particular scholar or research project, or having the most up-to-date facilities, determines whether a school stays a "first-tier research school," or some backwater commuter school. And this filters all the way down the food chain to the UTSA's and TAMU-Commerces of the world. Schools are spending tons of money so they can build the best facilities and attract the best scholars (who by the way come in shorter and shorter supply as America declines), so they can turn around and charge students more to have those facilities.

3A) Arms race, part II: Gone are the days when students attended university because they were interested in learning. Students today are paying money (OK, their parents are paying money) to receive a product called a diploma with the name of the university on it, which they can then show to an interviewer and get hired somewhere. And students don't have any intention of living with a roommate in an 8 x 8 room with bunk beds and a little sink, with a bathroom down the hall. They don't have any intention of eating on long wooden benches in a mess hall with poor-quality food on plastic trays. There is no way they are going to work out in a drafty old convocation building with a couple of vent fans where the equipment consists of a medicine ball and some ancient free weights. They have no interest in old classrooms with peeling paint on the walls and wooden desks that have been there since 1965.

No, today's students are discriminating consumers, and they demand luxurious, private living spaces, complete with all the amenities, including granite countertops. They demand gourmet-quality food in aesthetically pleasing dining spaces. They demand the latest fitness facilities -- dozens of machines for weights, treadmills, elliptical machines, elevated tracks, rock-climbing walls, racquetball courts, beach volleyball, you name it, they demand it. They want comfortable well-padded theater seating in their new classrooms, complete with Wi-Fi and cupholders.

All those things cost money. Guess who pays for it?

4) Funding: State support for public universities is far less than it was in years past, so students would have to pick up the slack even if all the other craziness hadn't set in.

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Great post. You nailed it.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Part of it is "class control" -- people from the upper class know that those graduating from the elite schools either are members of the upper class like them, or if they aren't in fact blue bloods, then they're probably quite exceptional if they're rubbing shoulders with the progeny of the elites.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I know this issue is probably not really high on the priority list right now but it matters to me. I went to college for 5 and a half years and I'm over 40,000 dollars in college loan debt that I will be paying back until I'm dead. I just wish that Obama or any future president would do something about this problem. There are millions of Americans that are in the same boat as me. They have to put themselves in debt with college loans just to get a college degree. That's not right or fair in my opinion. You shouldn't have to dig yourself a hole in debt just so you can get a college degree. Obama probably won't do anything about it. I will admit that I did make mistakes during my college years when it came to borrowing money for college. If I could go back and do it again, I probably would. It just makes me mad that I'm stuck with a huge amount of debt just so I could get a college degree. And what have I done with my college degree? Nothing. I wasted 5 and a half years in college and borrowed over 40,000 dollars and it all got me was a job at a retail store. The president or someone high up needs to make it where poor students can go to college at dirt cheap prices or at least make it where they don't have to be in tens of thousands of dollars in debt because of college loans. Why is it that you go to school for free from K-12th grade but when you get to college, you basically have to sell your soul to pay for it?
Anyone in the same boat as me?

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lol !!!

I received 1 grant during my college experience. Just one. I used most of it to pay for books and yes college books are fuckin' expensive. Like I said before, I was unprepared for college. I was brainwashed and misguided by my high school teachers that going to college and getting a degree would make my life better. I borrowed most of my money from Satan aka Panhandle Plains Loan Center. My loans were the advantage and stafford type. There are a lot of haters in this thread but that's life.
I'm the type of person that would only volunteer if I was required to by the law or if I was going to benefit it from. If that makes me a douchebag then so be it. If I could get some of the amount that I owe erased, I would volunteer my ass off. It just makes me mad that I'm stuck in this damn hole that's full of debt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I received 1 grant during my college experience. Just one. I used most of it to pay for books and yes college books are fuckin' expensive. Like I said before, I was unprepared for college. I was brainwashed and misguided by my high school teachers that going to college and getting a degree would make my life better. I borrowed most of my money from Satan aka Panhandle Plains Loan Center. My loans were the advantage and stafford type. There are a lot of haters in this thread but that's life.
I'm the type of person that would only volunteer if I was required to by the law or if I was going to benefit it from. If that makes me a douchebag then so be it. If I could get some of the amount that I owe erased, I would volunteer my ass off. It just makes me mad that I'm stuck in this damn hole that's full of debt.

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Your debt will not disappear overnight. If you continue to work, maybe take on a second job delivering pizzas, you will pay off your debt. Don't eat out, go see movies at the theatre, waste money on expensive apartments. If you live within your wage then you will be able to pay off the loans. No one should erase your debt, it is yours so you need to own up to it. I purchased a house, I should not be allowed to stop making payments just because it is expensive. I made my own bed and I will sleep in it.

go suck a dick man

higher education is not for everyone...you can find success somewhere else without a paper with a university name on it. You can work your way up

I will pass on sucking a dick. I am owning up to my shit. If I wasn't then I wouldn't be paying off a monthly payment to my college loan collectors. So don't even give me that shit. I was just saying that my situation is kind of what happened to a lot of people that took loans on houses and other things. The lenders approved loans to people that they knew wouldn't be able to pay them back or make payments on them. It was like giving a drug addict drugs or a drunk a beer. And don't fuckin tell me to be a man. I survived 5 and a half years at 3 colleges. A lot of people would have been pussies and quit but not me. I sucked it up and finished and got my degree. And life is hard. That's why I look forward to death. When I'm dead, I won't have to worry about money. In this life, money is everything. Sad but true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I will pass on sucking a dick. I am owning up to my shit. If I wasn't then I wouldn't be paying off a monthly payment to my college loan collectors. So don't even give me that shit. I was just saying that my situation is kind of what happened to a lot of people that took loans on houses and other things. The lenders approved loans to people that they knew wouldn't be able to pay them back or make payments on them. It was like giving a drug addict drugs or a drunk a beer. And don't fuckin tell me to be a man. I survived 5 and a half years at 3 colleges. A lot of people would have been pussies and quit but not me. I sucked it up and finished and got my degree. And life is hard. That's why I look forward to death. When I'm dead, I won't have to worry about money. In this life, money is everything. Sad but true.

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A bit melodramatic, aren't we? Maybe you should have taken an acting degree :)

Look, the only college I've been to is the late-night ones at Tulane when I squeeze in time between deployments and TDYs... and even I know that a psychology degree won't get you much if you're not already in the career field. (My mom has a BS; but she got that while she was working as a drug counselor for the state.)

You went to college and majored in psychology because you liked it... but did so without looking at the long-term situation. It sucks, certainly, because most 18 year olds aren't looking at the long-term. But don't act like it's some insurmountable debt.

Like I said, ask around the local psych departments; ask if they have a mentoring program. Good psychologists get paid 60 to 80K a year, so you can definitely recover. You just have to suck it up right now. Or find a sugarmomma.

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Originally Posted by violentkitten

so you fucked up and you want somebody else (oh, i'm sorry 'the government') to bail your miserable ass out?

and you didn't go to k-12 free. your parents paid taxes so your ass could go to school.

cry me a fucking river you fucking pussy.

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... if it was good enough for Goldman Sachs...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

I received 1 grant during my college experience. Just one. I used most of it to pay for books and yes college books are fuckin' expensive. Like I said before, I was unprepared for college. I was brainwashed and misguided by my high school teachers that going to college and getting a degree would make my life better. I borrowed most of my money from Satan aka Panhandle Plains Loan Center. My loans were the advantage and stafford type. There are a lot of haters in this thread but that's life.
I'm the type of person that would only volunteer if I was required to by the law or if I was going to benefit it from. If that makes me a douchebag then so be it. If I could get some of the amount that I owe erased, I would volunteer my ass off. It just makes me mad that I'm stuck in this damn hole that's full of debt.

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Student loan debt is simply a symptom of the conservative malaise that has afflicted the country since the Republican "revolution" that swept Gingrich into power in the nineties.

We have, as a society simply neglected the basic investments in human captial that we need to remain competitive.

We under-invest in education at all levels, we under-invest in health care, we under-invest in drug-treatment programs at the expense of feel-good, tough-on-crime jails, etc, etc, etc.

If one's parents have the funds for college, then you have a huge advantage out of the gate over those who don't. Just another glaring example of the widening income gap between haves and have nots that does nobody any good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

There won't be a United States in 50 years.

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The more I think about this, the more I am convinced you are wrong.

We'll see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced you are wrong.

We'll see.

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Well, youre the lone optimist among people who actually understand what is going on around them.

In 20 years, we wont even be using the US Dollar. The dissolution of the American State isnt too far beyond that.

(EDITED: I am editing this post to make clear that you, RG, are a person who understands whats going on around them, but that youre the lone optimist)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Well, youre the lone optimist among people who actually understand what is going on around them.

In 20 years, we wont even be using the US Dollar. The dissolution of the American State isnt too far beyond that.

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To paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of America's death are greatly overstated.

We still have lots of nukes, and our GDP, though propped up by funny money, I'll bet is still top 5 in terms of real value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Student loan debt is simply a symptom of the conservative malaise that has afflicted the country since the Republican "revolution" that swept Gingrich into power in the nineties.

We have, as a society simply neglected the basic investments in human captial that we need to remain competitive.

We under-invest in education at all levels, we under-invest in health care, we under-invest in drug-treatment programs at the expense of feel-good, tough-on-crime jails, etc, etc, etc.

If one's parents have the funds for college, then you have a huge advantage out of the gate over those who don't. Just another glaring example of the widening income gap between haves and have nots that does nobody any good.

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One out of every two dollars the federal government spends these days has to be borrowed from someone. I cringe to think how quickly we'd end up in financial ruin if education and health care were funded to your standards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Communist Party member, circa 1975

Paraphrase Mark Twain, report of Soviet Union death greatly overstated.

We still have lots nukes, and our GDP, though like vodka with much water to dilute, probably still top 5.

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ES,

I feel that America is made up of different people than Russia. I don't think we're necessarily better, but some countries do impress different mindsets upon their people.

Call it 'exceptionalism' if you will, or blind optimism. I think we will eventually rebound. At this point, it's all navel gazing anyways, no? Unless you plan on visiting this forum for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

ES,

I feel that America is made up of different people than Russia. I don't think we're necessarily better, but some countries do impress different mindsets upon their people.

Call it 'exceptionalism' if you will, or blind optimism. I think we will eventually rebound. At this point, it's all navel gazing anyways, no? Unless you plan on visiting this forum for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes

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I dont think there is anything uniquely exceptional about Americans opposed to other countries.

Our difference lies not in our people, but in our beliefs as a people. Russians and Russian leaders felt deeply about their beliefs, just as much as we did/do. But they ended up being on the wrong side of the economic formula (capitalism vs communism).

FWIW, if the US keeps going down the road we are, the only thing the Cold War will have proven is that capitalism can outlast communism if this were a marathon neither runner had any intention of finishing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

ES,

I feel that America is made up of different people than Russia. I don't think we're necessarily better, but some countries do impress different mindsets upon their people.

Call it 'exceptionalism' if you will, or blind optimism. I think we will eventually rebound. At this point, it's all navel gazing anyways, no? Unless you plan on visiting this forum for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes

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I have to agree. We have always, in the past, been exceptional people. Now I see a socialized mentality wanting to make everyone the same. I hate liberals for this. An analogy to mathematics would be the "Least Common Denominator." The liberal mindset is killing exceptionalism.

Quit buying textbooks.

Rent them for 1/4 of the price.

I'm usually against leasing, but my vehicles don't become obsolete after 2 years :lmao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

We have always, in the past, been exceptional people.

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Oh God, really? With an attitude like that and you have the audacity to blame Democrats?!

Youre a relic, the world has truly passed you by. There is nothing unique about American people, unless you consider obesity and saddled debt a unique trait.

Our government type was unique, for a time there. It isnt anymore, not even close. Its been corrupted and soiled, and contrary to your opinion, Democrats arent solely to blame for this.

Man, its like you write this dumb shit on purpose...

RG, are you going to set up an ESA for your son or just rely on the government to foot the bill?

Me personally, I will not be saving up for your son's education. Sorry. I'm sure those hip compassionate liberal universities are leading the march on lowering university tuition :lmao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Oh God, really? With an attitude like that and you have the audacity to blame Democrats?!

Youre a relic, the world has truly passed you by. There is nothing unique about American people, unless you consider obesity and saddled debt a unique trait.

Our government type was unique, for a time there. It isnt anymore, not even close. Its been corrupted and soiled, and contrary to your opinion, Democrats arent solely to blame for this.

Man, its like you write this dumb shit on purpose...

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You make it seem like our government was a shining beacon of goodness before the past 50 years though.

I'm pretty sure our government became corrupt as soon as the Founding Fathers passed on. Probably earlier.

Now, it might catch up to us... we might already be there. But saying that the government was unique, but is now corrupt, seems as short-sighted as saying that everything has already been invented... in the 1800's.

In my high school experience, the teachers only cared about getting paid and getting bonuses and raises. They were so obsessed with us passing the stupid state tests i.e. TAAS, TASP, or whatever it's called now. But I know why. The better kids do on those tests the more money teachers get. There should be some type of class or program that prepares high school students for college if they are thinking about going. My high school teachers didn't prepare any of us for college or the real world.
It just made me mad that I worked my butt off in high school and didn't translate over to college. My college experience was a disaster from the start. I did graduate eventually and got a degree but overall the whole thing was mostly an epic fail. I need to write a damn book about all the stupid ass mistakes I made so I can tell little turds who are going to college to avoid the mistakes that I made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob1983

In my high school experience, the teachers only cared about getting paid and getting bonuses and raises. They were so obsessed with us passing the stupid state tests i.e. TAAS, TASP, or whatever it's called now. But I know why. The better kids do on those tests the more money teachers get. There should be some type of class or program that prepares high school students for college if they are thinking about going. My high school teachers didn't prepare any of us for college or the real world.
It just made me mad that I worked my butt off in high school and didn't translate over to college. My college experience was a disaster from the start. I did graduate eventually and got a degree but overall the whole thing was mostly an epic fail. I need to write a damn book about all the stupid ass mistakes I made so I can tell little turds who are going to college to avoid the mistakes that I made.

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Sue the school district for incompetence if you want to do anything. Bring the problems into the light.

I agree the schools fail out kids, and I primarily blame two things. The teachers unions, and the creation of the Department of Education in 1979.

Unions have no place for government employees because those negotiating on the tax payers side have no vested interest. Government employees should do the work because they want to serve the community. Not because it is an elitist job, like it has become. I know teachers don't do so well in other areas, but they bank out pretty good here in Oregon for only working 9 months a year.

Than God. I graduated before that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

You make it seem like our government was a shining beacon of goodness before the past 50 years though.

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It was far, FAR more thorough IMO. An opinion formed only from books, admittedly. I am quite sure Americans of the day would differ. But I believe those same Americans would emmigrate in today's America.

Quote:

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I'm pretty sure our government became corrupt as soon as the Founding Fathers passed on. Probably earlier.

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I dont. Corruption is inevitable, no matter what. What we see today in government is not corruption. Not corruption in the way the word was used throughout history.

What we have today, and this is the kicker, is an abortion of the original idea compounded by years and years of crony legislation and precedent in what turns into SOP for all officials.

There is no more ugly and detestable American political experience than "The Campaign".

Whether youre running for a city council position all the way to the Presidency, what our system of government has morphed into by way of law and corporate wealth is grounds for revolution on behalf of a so-called representative government.

Every donor, every hanger-on, every favor, every entry into the guest book has a debt attached to it that will be paid in full upon taking office. All the conflicts of interest and unethical behavior that runs rampant throughout the political universe in this country is just written off as business as usual.

When perception becomes reality, reality transcends perception.

Quote:

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Now, it might catch up to us... we might already be there. But saying that the government was unique, but is now corrupt, seems as short-sighted as saying that everything has already been invented... in the 1800's.

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The government type that came out of the Revolutionary War was unique. It was Greek in its nature and scope, but wholly American (and to a lesser degree, influencing the French revolution by way of bankruptcy).

As it stand today, it is not uniquely American. At all, in any way, shape or form. Our government has been adopted by just about every single developed nation in the world not named China (labeling China developed may be an overstatement).

What was once our advantage has become an even playing field, both economically and culturally. Yet instead of forging ahead with our own ideals, our massively uneducated leaders look across the Atlantic for direction, which is fucking pathetic.

Our situation is quite reprehensible and should lead to the total dissolution of the American government unless some...leader pops out of frickin nowhere and actually (somehow, by way of miracle) sells the American people on the idea of individual responsibility and thrift (:lmao....yeah right).

This nation's #1 responsibility right now and for every year, term and President hereafter should be balancing the budget. Not adding massively expensive social programs in some futile attempt to lift ourselves up by handle of the bucket we're standing in (i stole this from somewhere, but it wasnt in reference to this subject).

That means making massive cuts to government spending, across all categories and intiatives. Yes, even the military if need be. The government, instead of going into default at some point in the near future, should default on its promises to its own people first and foremost. No SS, no Medicare, no nothing for anything or anyone. No handouts, no food stamps, no welfare, nothing, nada.

Infrastructure only. If the tax does not benefit private business, then it shouldnt exist, period. Business should be debt relieved, not riddled. Once the budget is balanced, thats it, thats the way we live until the debt of this country is reduced to near zero.

If it takes 10 years, 20, fuck it....100 years, so be it. It will suck, people will die due to no medicare or free health insurance (maybe at first, but i doubt it after that). People will starve without welfare and foodstamps (maybe at first, but i doubt it after that). It will suck.

But the fucking alternative to this is dissolution and conformity to a world system of government and taxation. People used to willingly die to avoid such things, the common American idiot is chomping at the bit for the day they can finally get something for nothing.

Problem, theyre too damn uneducated and entertained to know what it cost them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SonOfAGun

RG, are you going to set up an ESA for your son or just rely on the government to foot the bill?

Me personally, I will not be saving up for your son's education. Sorry. I'm sure those hip compassionate liberal universities are leading the march on lowering university tuition :lmao

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The problem with much conservative thinking is that it is unable to fully encapsulate the complex intereactions within an economy. People are viewed as if they are completely independent of everyone else and islands in and of themselves.

If we, as a nation, fail to provide enough college graduates for any given field, where do businesses go to find the skilled workforce?

If other nations can provide those graduates, they simply become economically more competitive.

I will be setting aside some money for my sons, but will encourage them to work/save for a few years before starting college. I will even encourage them to consider military service.

That you fail to see you have a vested interest in my sons simply says to me that you don't understand macroeconomics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Well, youre the lone optimist among people who actually understand what is going on around them.

In 20 years, we wont even be using the US Dollar. The dissolution of the American State isnt too far beyond that.

(EDITED: I am editing this post to make clear that you, RG, are a person who understands whats going on around them, but that youre the lone optimist)

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I beleive we may eventually dissolve into some smaller economic units though. That seems to be the way contries actually work, although it makes for certain inefficiences.

Unlike ES, I don't think this process will be violent.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

One out of every two dollars the federal government spends these days has to be borrowed from someone. I cringe to think how quickly we'd end up in financial ruin if education and health care were funded to your standards.

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Once again, a narrow view.

If we managed to keep people out of bankruptcy, gave them decent preventive care, and kept them generally healthier, how much more productive would our population be in general?

Remember that one out of every 10 dollars spent in the US is for health care. If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

Health care reform does not add ONLY costs to the system. Adding more college graduates does not ONLY add costs to the system.

There are some rather tangible benefits to both. The problem with conservative myopia is that they fail to see the other side of the coin, and would rather pinch a penny now and miss out on the dollar tomorrow. It is more politically attractive to the right to build expensive jails to produce new super-criminals than it is to spend a few pennies on the dollar for drug-treatment programs.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The problem with much conservative thinking is that it is unable to fully encapsulate the complex intereactions within an economy. People are viewed as if they are completely independent of everyone else and islands in and of themselves.

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Not true. At least as far as I know, most conservatives recognize it is too hard to complex to try to control, and natural supply and demand economics usually work well with less restrictions. Not more regulations.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we, as a nation, fail to provide enough college graduates for any given field, where do businesses go to find the skilled workforce?

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This was not a historical norm. The problem I see is that schools do not teach to the levels they used to. In an effort to pass everyone in K-12, we teach to the lowest common denominator. Excellance isn't rewarded and acknowledged like it used to be either, in fear of making those less gifted feel bad.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If other nations can provide those graduates, they simply become economically more competitive.

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And it happens. They aren't as complacent, and recognoze the necessity of hard work.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we managed to keep people out of bankruptcy, gave them decent preventive care, and kept them generally healthier, how much more productive would our population be in general?

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Lets see. Less productive...

There are already programs where people are given medical treatment. Now, when you take away the incentives for excellence by making all things equal, the reason people strive for excellence is diminished.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Remember that one out of every 10 dollars spent in the US is for health care. If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

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Plenty.

Can we start with serious tort reform, and a push to the free market? Supply and demand with competition will bring down the prices. Insurance rates will decrease with tort reform, making the cost of a doctors visit less.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Health care reform does not add ONLY costs to the system. Adding more college graduates does not ONLY add costs to the system.

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Reform that increases the cost is not any form or reform I want to see.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

There are some rather tangible benefits to both. The problem with conservative myopia is that they fail to see the other side of the coin, and would rather pinch a penny now and miss out on the dollar tomorrow. It is more politically attractive to the right to build expensive jails to produce new super-criminals than it is to spend a few pennies on the dollar for drug-treatment programs.

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No, we see the long term ramifications, and don't like what we see.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Once again, a narrow view.

If we managed to keep people out of bankruptcy, gave them decent preventive care, and kept them generally healthier, how much more productive would our population be in general?

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How much more productive would our population be if it weren't saddled with trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars of debt?

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Remember that one out of every 10 dollars spent in the US is for health care. If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

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Preventative care isn't some new idea. It's been around. Yet we still ended up here.

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Health care reform does not add ONLY costs to the system. Adding more college graduates does not ONLY add costs to the system.

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The costs of getting government involved always exceed the benefits. That's how our educational and medical systems have ended up in the financial holes that they are in.

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There are some rather tangible benefits to both. The problem with conservative myopia is that they fail to see the other side of the coin, and would rather pinch a penny now and miss out on the dollar tomorrow. It is more politically attractive to the right to build expensive jails to produce new super-criminals than it is to spend a few pennies on the dollar for drug-treatment programs.

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And the problem with liberal myopia is that they fail to see that government is incapable of taxing and spending it's way into making life fair for everyone. All their good intentions only result in massive piles of debt that future generations will have to pay off. And you can quit with the jails reference because all the money we spend on jails is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the holes that social security and medicare are, and the ones cap and trade and universal healthcare will become.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we, as a nation, fail to provide enough college graduates for any given field, where do businesses go to find the skilled workforce?

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College enrollement is not a problem. The percentage of high school graduates who enroll in college has been steadily climbing for 40 years now. There's no shortage of college graduates whatsoever. If anything, there's more college graduates than the workforce can support right now. The original post in this thread is a prime example. When you get right down to it the problem with education in this country is that not enough people graduate high school and too many graduate college.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

College enrollement is not a problem. The percentage of high school graduates who enroll in college has been steadily climbing for 40 years now. There's no shortage of college graduates whatsoever. If anything, there's more college graduates than the workforce can support right now. The original post in this thread is a prime example. When you get right down to it the problem with education in this country is that not enough people graduate high school and too many graduate college.

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I agree, I meant to cover that too.

Then you also have these commercials getting students to take certain types of courses. Historically, I have noted that this just causes a surplus of that discipline, so industry can have a cheaper workforce. Notice most claim they are tied to employers for job placement? Guess what... That's intentional...

I remember a time when local high schools use to have trade programs to support the local industry. With all the requirements and costs of bureaucracy now, so many things like this are hard to find, or gone all together. Electives and sports are being cut. Agenda's are being taught.

Last figures I have are $11,400 per student average K-12 for Oregon. I'm sure it's higher now. If we assume 20 (more like 25+) student per class, that's $228,000 per class. Why isn't that enough money already? Why do schools need more?

DarkReign,

What about Chicago? Where do you think its reputation comes from? Tammany Hall? Or how about the fact that they put in an Amendment in order to make senators electable by popular vote?

Corruption has been around a long time. I think that your opinion of it is somewhat akin to old people saying, "Back in MY DAY... etc etc"

Just like people who say, "Campaigns are so vicious with mudslinging nowadays!" who don't even bother to look up the slander that was cast back in the day.

And I think your solution wouldn't work either. Let's throw out a hypothetical: say, for instance, the good people of America decided to elect these politicians who promised not to throw any pork their way.

How long without food do you think a society can stay stable for? How long before neighbors turn on one another?

America has been able to stay ahead because we've had an entrepreneurial spirit, and we're good at foreseeing things people want. We've also got some very strong culture. That's what makes us a worldwide leader.

If we manage to become more isolationist in the future, and shout down everyone who wants us to be the world police with no other nations kicking in their fair share of the cost, then we'll go a long way towards relieving the problem, I think. Once we take the focus off international affairs, we can point it inwards, and spend our resources on eliminating what isn't working.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

This was not a historical norm. The problem I see is that schools do not teach to the levels they used to. In an effort to pass everyone in K-12, we teach to the lowest common denominator. Excellance isn't rewarded and acknowledged like it used to be either, in fear of making those less gifted feel bad.

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That's a good point. The boomers went WAY overboard with political correctness, and hopefully there's a correction for that within 20/30 years.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

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That's a lie of the left. Preventative care in modern medicine means more testing which is often more expensive. If every male over 40 gets an annual PSA test and a colonoscopy all you have done is increase the the cost of healthcare. It does nothing to lower the number of people who get prostrate or colon cancer.

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

That's a lie of the left. Preventative care in modern medicine means more testing which is often more expensive. If every male over 40 gets an annual PSA test and a colonoscopy all you have done is increase the the cost of healthcare. It does nothing to lower the number of people who get prostrate or colon cancer.

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:lmao

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

That's a lie of the left. Preventative care in modern medicine means more testing which is often more expensive. If every male over 40 gets an annual PSA test and a colonoscopy all you have done is increase the the cost of healthcare. It does nothing to lower the number of people who get prostrate or colon cancer.

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Preventive care is more lifestyle than treatment related. Diet, exercise, not smoking or overdrinking/drugging and so forth. It has less to do with what the doctor does to you than what you do to yourself.

If you take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, and exercise your demons, you have less need for traumatic/emergency intervention, generally.

The apothecary is poison too. Overmedication is a big killer. Don't take any of the f*****g medicine unless you really have to. The docs will give you almost any effing thing just to get you out of their office.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Preventive care is more lifestyle than treatment related. Diet, exercise, not smoking or overdrinking/drugging and so forth. It has less to do with what the doctor does to you than what you do to yourself.

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That's not all that preventative care means.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/7/661

The only one here implying that is you.