Will Obama or any future president of America do anything about higher education?

ES,

I feel that America is made up of different people than Russia. I don't think we're necessarily better, but some countries do impress different mindsets upon their people.

Call it 'exceptionalism' if you will, or blind optimism. I think we will eventually rebound. At this point, it's all navel gazing anyways, no? Unless you plan on visiting this forum for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

ES,

I feel that America is made up of different people than Russia. I don't think we're necessarily better, but some countries do impress different mindsets upon their people.

Call it 'exceptionalism' if you will, or blind optimism. I think we will eventually rebound. At this point, it's all navel gazing anyways, no? Unless you plan on visiting this forum for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes

---

I dont think there is anything uniquely exceptional about Americans opposed to other countries.

Our difference lies not in our people, but in our beliefs as a people. Russians and Russian leaders felt deeply about their beliefs, just as much as we did/do. But they ended up being on the wrong side of the economic formula (capitalism vs communism).

FWIW, if the US keeps going down the road we are, the only thing the Cold War will have proven is that capitalism can outlast communism if this were a marathon neither runner had any intention of finishing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

ES,

I feel that America is made up of different people than Russia. I don't think we're necessarily better, but some countries do impress different mindsets upon their people.

Call it 'exceptionalism' if you will, or blind optimism. I think we will eventually rebound. At this point, it's all navel gazing anyways, no? Unless you plan on visiting this forum for the next 50 years or so. :rolleyes

---

I have to agree. We have always, in the past, been exceptional people. Now I see a socialized mentality wanting to make everyone the same. I hate liberals for this. An analogy to mathematics would be the "Least Common Denominator." The liberal mindset is killing exceptionalism.

Quit buying textbooks.

Rent them for 1/4 of the price.

I'm usually against leasing, but my vehicles don't become obsolete after 2 years :lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

We have always, in the past, been exceptional people.

---

Oh God, really? With an attitude like that and you have the audacity to blame Democrats?!

Youre a relic, the world has truly passed you by. There is nothing unique about American people, unless you consider obesity and saddled debt a unique trait.

Our government type was unique, for a time there. It isnt anymore, not even close. Its been corrupted and soiled, and contrary to your opinion, Democrats arent solely to blame for this.

Man, its like you write this dumb shit on purpose...

RG, are you going to set up an ESA for your son or just rely on the government to foot the bill?

Me personally, I will not be saving up for your son's education. Sorry. I'm sure those hip compassionate liberal universities are leading the march on lowering university tuition :lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkReign

Oh God, really? With an attitude like that and you have the audacity to blame Democrats?!

Youre a relic, the world has truly passed you by. There is nothing unique about American people, unless you consider obesity and saddled debt a unique trait.

Our government type was unique, for a time there. It isnt anymore, not even close. Its been corrupted and soiled, and contrary to your opinion, Democrats arent solely to blame for this.

Man, its like you write this dumb shit on purpose...

---

You make it seem like our government was a shining beacon of goodness before the past 50 years though.

I'm pretty sure our government became corrupt as soon as the Founding Fathers passed on. Probably earlier.

Now, it might catch up to us... we might already be there. But saying that the government was unique, but is now corrupt, seems as short-sighted as saying that everything has already been invented... in the 1800's.

In my high school experience, the teachers only cared about getting paid and getting bonuses and raises. They were so obsessed with us passing the stupid state tests i.e. TAAS, TASP, or whatever it's called now. But I know why. The better kids do on those tests the more money teachers get. There should be some type of class or program that prepares high school students for college if they are thinking about going. My high school teachers didn't prepare any of us for college or the real world.
It just made me mad that I worked my butt off in high school and didn't translate over to college. My college experience was a disaster from the start. I did graduate eventually and got a degree but overall the whole thing was mostly an epic fail. I need to write a damn book about all the stupid ass mistakes I made so I can tell little turds who are going to college to avoid the mistakes that I made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacob1983

In my high school experience, the teachers only cared about getting paid and getting bonuses and raises. They were so obsessed with us passing the stupid state tests i.e. TAAS, TASP, or whatever it's called now. But I know why. The better kids do on those tests the more money teachers get. There should be some type of class or program that prepares high school students for college if they are thinking about going. My high school teachers didn't prepare any of us for college or the real world.
It just made me mad that I worked my butt off in high school and didn't translate over to college. My college experience was a disaster from the start. I did graduate eventually and got a degree but overall the whole thing was mostly an epic fail. I need to write a damn book about all the stupid ass mistakes I made so I can tell little turds who are going to college to avoid the mistakes that I made.

---

Sue the school district for incompetence if you want to do anything. Bring the problems into the light.

I agree the schools fail out kids, and I primarily blame two things. The teachers unions, and the creation of the Department of Education in 1979.

Unions have no place for government employees because those negotiating on the tax payers side have no vested interest. Government employees should do the work because they want to serve the community. Not because it is an elitist job, like it has become. I know teachers don't do so well in other areas, but they bank out pretty good here in Oregon for only working 9 months a year.

Than God. I graduated before that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

You make it seem like our government was a shining beacon of goodness before the past 50 years though.

---

It was far, FAR more thorough IMO. An opinion formed only from books, admittedly. I am quite sure Americans of the day would differ. But I believe those same Americans would emmigrate in today's America.

Quote:

---

I'm pretty sure our government became corrupt as soon as the Founding Fathers passed on. Probably earlier.

---

I dont. Corruption is inevitable, no matter what. What we see today in government is not corruption. Not corruption in the way the word was used throughout history.

What we have today, and this is the kicker, is an abortion of the original idea compounded by years and years of crony legislation and precedent in what turns into SOP for all officials.

There is no more ugly and detestable American political experience than "The Campaign".

Whether youre running for a city council position all the way to the Presidency, what our system of government has morphed into by way of law and corporate wealth is grounds for revolution on behalf of a so-called representative government.

Every donor, every hanger-on, every favor, every entry into the guest book has a debt attached to it that will be paid in full upon taking office. All the conflicts of interest and unethical behavior that runs rampant throughout the political universe in this country is just written off as business as usual.

When perception becomes reality, reality transcends perception.

Quote:

---

Now, it might catch up to us... we might already be there. But saying that the government was unique, but is now corrupt, seems as short-sighted as saying that everything has already been invented... in the 1800's.

---

The government type that came out of the Revolutionary War was unique. It was Greek in its nature and scope, but wholly American (and to a lesser degree, influencing the French revolution by way of bankruptcy).

As it stand today, it is not uniquely American. At all, in any way, shape or form. Our government has been adopted by just about every single developed nation in the world not named China (labeling China developed may be an overstatement).

What was once our advantage has become an even playing field, both economically and culturally. Yet instead of forging ahead with our own ideals, our massively uneducated leaders look across the Atlantic for direction, which is fucking pathetic.

Our situation is quite reprehensible and should lead to the total dissolution of the American government unless some...leader pops out of frickin nowhere and actually (somehow, by way of miracle) sells the American people on the idea of individual responsibility and thrift (:lmao....yeah right).

This nation's #1 responsibility right now and for every year, term and President hereafter should be balancing the budget. Not adding massively expensive social programs in some futile attempt to lift ourselves up by handle of the bucket we're standing in (i stole this from somewhere, but it wasnt in reference to this subject).

That means making massive cuts to government spending, across all categories and intiatives. Yes, even the military if need be. The government, instead of going into default at some point in the near future, should default on its promises to its own people first and foremost. No SS, no Medicare, no nothing for anything or anyone. No handouts, no food stamps, no welfare, nothing, nada.

Infrastructure only. If the tax does not benefit private business, then it shouldnt exist, period. Business should be debt relieved, not riddled. Once the budget is balanced, thats it, thats the way we live until the debt of this country is reduced to near zero.

If it takes 10 years, 20, fuck it....100 years, so be it. It will suck, people will die due to no medicare or free health insurance (maybe at first, but i doubt it after that). People will starve without welfare and foodstamps (maybe at first, but i doubt it after that). It will suck.

But the fucking alternative to this is dissolution and conformity to a world system of government and taxation. People used to willingly die to avoid such things, the common American idiot is chomping at the bit for the day they can finally get something for nothing.

Problem, theyre too damn uneducated and entertained to know what it cost them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SonOfAGun

RG, are you going to set up an ESA for your son or just rely on the government to foot the bill?

Me personally, I will not be saving up for your son's education. Sorry. I'm sure those hip compassionate liberal universities are leading the march on lowering university tuition :lmao

---

The problem with much conservative thinking is that it is unable to fully encapsulate the complex intereactions within an economy. People are viewed as if they are completely independent of everyone else and islands in and of themselves.

If we, as a nation, fail to provide enough college graduates for any given field, where do businesses go to find the skilled workforce?

If other nations can provide those graduates, they simply become economically more competitive.

I will be setting aside some money for my sons, but will encourage them to work/save for a few years before starting college. I will even encourage them to consider military service.

That you fail to see you have a vested interest in my sons simply says to me that you don't understand macroeconomics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkReign

Well, youre the lone optimist among people who actually understand what is going on around them.

In 20 years, we wont even be using the US Dollar. The dissolution of the American State isnt too far beyond that.

(EDITED: I am editing this post to make clear that you, RG, are a person who understands whats going on around them, but that youre the lone optimist)

---

I beleive we may eventually dissolve into some smaller economic units though. That seems to be the way contries actually work, although it makes for certain inefficiences.

Unlike ES, I don't think this process will be violent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

One out of every two dollars the federal government spends these days has to be borrowed from someone. I cringe to think how quickly we'd end up in financial ruin if education and health care were funded to your standards.

---

Once again, a narrow view.

If we managed to keep people out of bankruptcy, gave them decent preventive care, and kept them generally healthier, how much more productive would our population be in general?

Remember that one out of every 10 dollars spent in the US is for health care. If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

Health care reform does not add ONLY costs to the system. Adding more college graduates does not ONLY add costs to the system.

There are some rather tangible benefits to both. The problem with conservative myopia is that they fail to see the other side of the coin, and would rather pinch a penny now and miss out on the dollar tomorrow. It is more politically attractive to the right to build expensive jails to produce new super-criminals than it is to spend a few pennies on the dollar for drug-treatment programs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The problem with much conservative thinking is that it is unable to fully encapsulate the complex intereactions within an economy. People are viewed as if they are completely independent of everyone else and islands in and of themselves.

---

Not true. At least as far as I know, most conservatives recognize it is too hard to complex to try to control, and natural supply and demand economics usually work well with less restrictions. Not more regulations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we, as a nation, fail to provide enough college graduates for any given field, where do businesses go to find the skilled workforce?

---

This was not a historical norm. The problem I see is that schools do not teach to the levels they used to. In an effort to pass everyone in K-12, we teach to the lowest common denominator. Excellance isn't rewarded and acknowledged like it used to be either, in fear of making those less gifted feel bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If other nations can provide those graduates, they simply become economically more competitive.

---

And it happens. They aren't as complacent, and recognoze the necessity of hard work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we managed to keep people out of bankruptcy, gave them decent preventive care, and kept them generally healthier, how much more productive would our population be in general?

---

Lets see. Less productive...

There are already programs where people are given medical treatment. Now, when you take away the incentives for excellence by making all things equal, the reason people strive for excellence is diminished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Remember that one out of every 10 dollars spent in the US is for health care. If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

---

Plenty.

Can we start with serious tort reform, and a push to the free market? Supply and demand with competition will bring down the prices. Insurance rates will decrease with tort reform, making the cost of a doctors visit less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Health care reform does not add ONLY costs to the system. Adding more college graduates does not ONLY add costs to the system.

---

Reform that increases the cost is not any form or reform I want to see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

There are some rather tangible benefits to both. The problem with conservative myopia is that they fail to see the other side of the coin, and would rather pinch a penny now and miss out on the dollar tomorrow. It is more politically attractive to the right to build expensive jails to produce new super-criminals than it is to spend a few pennies on the dollar for drug-treatment programs.

---

No, we see the long term ramifications, and don't like what we see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Once again, a narrow view.

If we managed to keep people out of bankruptcy, gave them decent preventive care, and kept them generally healthier, how much more productive would our population be in general?

---

How much more productive would our population be if it weren't saddled with trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars of debt?

Quote:

---

Remember that one out of every 10 dollars spent in the US is for health care. If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

---

Preventative care isn't some new idea. It's been around. Yet we still ended up here.

Quote:

---

Health care reform does not add ONLY costs to the system. Adding more college graduates does not ONLY add costs to the system.

---

The costs of getting government involved always exceed the benefits. That's how our educational and medical systems have ended up in the financial holes that they are in.

Quote:

---

There are some rather tangible benefits to both. The problem with conservative myopia is that they fail to see the other side of the coin, and would rather pinch a penny now and miss out on the dollar tomorrow. It is more politically attractive to the right to build expensive jails to produce new super-criminals than it is to spend a few pennies on the dollar for drug-treatment programs.

---

And the problem with liberal myopia is that they fail to see that government is incapable of taxing and spending it's way into making life fair for everyone. All their good intentions only result in massive piles of debt that future generations will have to pay off. And you can quit with the jails reference because all the money we spend on jails is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the holes that social security and medicare are, and the ones cap and trade and universal healthcare will become.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we, as a nation, fail to provide enough college graduates for any given field, where do businesses go to find the skilled workforce?

---

College enrollement is not a problem. The percentage of high school graduates who enroll in college has been steadily climbing for 40 years now. There's no shortage of college graduates whatsoever. If anything, there's more college graduates than the workforce can support right now. The original post in this thread is a prime example. When you get right down to it the problem with education in this country is that not enough people graduate high school and too many graduate college.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

College enrollement is not a problem. The percentage of high school graduates who enroll in college has been steadily climbing for 40 years now. There's no shortage of college graduates whatsoever. If anything, there's more college graduates than the workforce can support right now. The original post in this thread is a prime example. When you get right down to it the problem with education in this country is that not enough people graduate high school and too many graduate college.

---

I agree, I meant to cover that too.

Then you also have these commercials getting students to take certain types of courses. Historically, I have noted that this just causes a surplus of that discipline, so industry can have a cheaper workforce. Notice most claim they are tied to employers for job placement? Guess what... That's intentional...

I remember a time when local high schools use to have trade programs to support the local industry. With all the requirements and costs of bureaucracy now, so many things like this are hard to find, or gone all together. Electives and sports are being cut. Agenda's are being taught.

Last figures I have are $11,400 per student average K-12 for Oregon. I'm sure it's higher now. If we assume 20 (more like 25+) student per class, that's $228,000 per class. Why isn't that enough money already? Why do schools need more?

DarkReign,

What about Chicago? Where do you think its reputation comes from? Tammany Hall? Or how about the fact that they put in an Amendment in order to make senators electable by popular vote?

Corruption has been around a long time. I think that your opinion of it is somewhat akin to old people saying, "Back in MY DAY... etc etc"

Just like people who say, "Campaigns are so vicious with mudslinging nowadays!" who don't even bother to look up the slander that was cast back in the day.

And I think your solution wouldn't work either. Let's throw out a hypothetical: say, for instance, the good people of America decided to elect these politicians who promised not to throw any pork their way.

How long without food do you think a society can stay stable for? How long before neighbors turn on one another?

America has been able to stay ahead because we've had an entrepreneurial spirit, and we're good at foreseeing things people want. We've also got some very strong culture. That's what makes us a worldwide leader.

If we manage to become more isolationist in the future, and shout down everyone who wants us to be the world police with no other nations kicking in their fair share of the cost, then we'll go a long way towards relieving the problem, I think. Once we take the focus off international affairs, we can point it inwards, and spend our resources on eliminating what isn't working.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

This was not a historical norm. The problem I see is that schools do not teach to the levels they used to. In an effort to pass everyone in K-12, we teach to the lowest common denominator. Excellance isn't rewarded and acknowledged like it used to be either, in fear of making those less gifted feel bad.

---

That's a good point. The boomers went WAY overboard with political correctness, and hopefully there's a correction for that within 20/30 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

If we can reduce expensive pallative care with less expensive preventive care, how much capital would be freed up for more productive purposes?

---

That's a lie of the left. Preventative care in modern medicine means more testing which is often more expensive. If every male over 40 gets an annual PSA test and a colonoscopy all you have done is increase the the cost of healthcare. It does nothing to lower the number of people who get prostrate or colon cancer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

That's a lie of the left. Preventative care in modern medicine means more testing which is often more expensive. If every male over 40 gets an annual PSA test and a colonoscopy all you have done is increase the the cost of healthcare. It does nothing to lower the number of people who get prostrate or colon cancer.

---

:lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

That's a lie of the left. Preventative care in modern medicine means more testing which is often more expensive. If every male over 40 gets an annual PSA test and a colonoscopy all you have done is increase the the cost of healthcare. It does nothing to lower the number of people who get prostrate or colon cancer.

---

Preventive care is more lifestyle than treatment related. Diet, exercise, not smoking or overdrinking/drugging and so forth. It has less to do with what the doctor does to you than what you do to yourself.

If you take care of yourself, eat right, exercise, and exercise your demons, you have less need for traumatic/emergency intervention, generally.

The apothecary is poison too. Overmedication is a big killer. Don't take any of the f*****g medicine unless you really have to. The docs will give you almost any effing thing just to get you out of their office.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winehole23

Preventive care is more lifestyle than treatment related. Diet, exercise, not smoking or overdrinking/drugging and so forth. It has less to do with what the doctor does to you than what you do to yourself.

---

That's not all that preventative care means.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/7/661

The only one here implying that is you.