Just saw a Spurs lineup that kind of intrigued me..

San Antonio Spurs

Tim Duncan at center. Antonio McDyess at one forward spot and Manu Ginobili at the other. Roger Mason and Tony Parker at the guard spots. Richard Jefferson as sixth man of the year. With "Walk TPG" still intact and (hopefully) healthy, Pop can experiment with McDyess at power forward (moving Duncan to center on occasion might be a smart move on the back end of his career) and run Mason at the 2 as Ginobili and Jefferson share minutes and scoring. Off the bench, Jefferson (canceled wedding and all) can be more dangerous scoring 15 points per game than he was in Jersey or Milwaukee putting up 20 ppg, and he's a great insurance policy in case Ginobili goes down again. Almost more important, Matt Bonner. If he continues to play well and can spell minutes for Duncan and McDyess, the Lakers will have trouble in the West.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...7&sportCat=nba

Not sure about RJ coming off the bench, but who knows...I know Scoop can be full of shit sometimes, but I thought it'd be interesting to post.

RJ needs to start, if you're going to start Manu you bench Mason IMO

Interesting idea. It could definitely work but I'm not sure I'm a fan of playing Ginobili at the 3 right off the bat. It also leaves us without a great defensive player on the wing at the outset of the game (granted, we didn't have that with Finley last year either, but Jefferson is a considerable upgrade over Manu on defense). I think it is of considerable value to try and keep opposing team's lead perimeter players cool from the beginning rather than having to play fire extinguisher later.

manu at sf?? ah.....no thanks. RJ WILL start. we've had a hole at sf since sean retired and you're telling me that the answer has been manu all this time?

prefer ginoboli to come off the bench with GHILL + BLAIR, we need scoring from the 2nd unit....if ghill cant handle the ball, gino will bring it up

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

prefer ginoboli to come off the bench with GHILL + BLAIR, we need scoring from the 2nd unit....if ghill cant handle the ball, gino will bring it up

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Good point. One of the reasons you can play George Hill as a PG is because you have Ginobili backing him up in the second unit. I wouldn't want to break that duo up if I could help it. Whenever Hill is on the floor it would be best to have Gino there also.

I don't like that as a starting lineup, but RJ's got to rest some time. So it's still a good 5 man lineup to use sometime during the game.

2nd unit must have at leasts 2 veterans on the court...ginoboli + and a big to play alongside blair or mahinmi...this case mcdyness is either start or bench

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

I don't like that as a starting lineup, but RJ's got to rest some time. So it's still a good 5 man lineup to use sometime during the game.

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I was thinking about that a bit after I made my "Minutes" thread a few days ago (and after Hairston's solid SL play continued). I think you need to keep a little bit of size on the court at the 3 at all times for defensive reasons. Hairston seems worthy of a few minutes in the rotation and as Jefferson's primary reserve it could work out beautifully.

RJ will likely play around 35 minutes a game and Hairston could chip in 10-12 when hes out. Then you round out the wings rotation with Manu/Mason and a handful for spare minutes (6-8) for Hill at the 2. That leaves Finley out but...who cares.

However, if RJ comes off the bench I am NOT a fan of starting Hairston.

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Originally Posted by blizz

manu at sf?? ah.....no thanks. RJ WILL start. we've had a hole at sf since sean retired and you're telling me that the answer has been manu all this time?

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Um, Bowen?

Didn't GHill put up more assists / points when he was duo'd with Mason at the beginning of last year?

"Walk TPG" :lmao

Gino=G

RJ=F/G

RJ needs to start.

I admire Scoop Jackson's ability to continue to receive a paycheck for the product he puts out.

The problem i see with the Spurs lineup is not one of offense, it's one of defense.

Manu is an erratic defensive player and this sometimes leaves him out of position. But this also leads to him defleting a lot of passes and getting his fair share of steals...he simply has a knack for that type of thing. It's sometimes hit-or-miss with manu, but he always hustles and challenges jump shots...so i would never consider him a defensive liabilty. Keep in mind, this is with him at the 2-Guard spot. At the SF position he wouldn't have the length or the strength to hang with a lot of the better SF's. Guys like Carmelo and LeBron would be way too much for Manu to handle. I would definitely consider him a defensive liabilty when playing small forward.

Roger Mason, on the other hand, hustles and challenges shots, but he doesn't have the athletic ablity or the same craftiness on the defensive end as Manu. He's somewhat of a liablity.

Taking a 6'9, athletic guy like RJ out of the lineup would definitely hurt defensively. It would pretty much leave two big holes where the opposing team's top scorers are going to be playing. If RJ comes in with the right attitude, i don't see any reason why he won't be a solid defensive player...he's definitely equipped with the right tools.

The majority of the lineup options should not have a problem putting points on the board. So the Spurs need to focus on fielding lineups that are strong defensively. The Spurs will not advance past teams like Dallas, Portland and LA if their strategy is to turn games into an offensive chess match.

Blair will kill if he gets to play with Manu. THis will be the best bench in the NBA with those two, if they are healthy.

I'm tired of all this "Manu needs to come off the bench" crap. He needs to start.

:pctoss

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Originally Posted by SA210

I'm tired of all this "Manu needs to come off the bench" crap. He needs to start.

:pctoss

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Why?

I don't know if I like the idea of Manu coming off the bench with a bunch of rookies and a sophmore. If we want him to survive until June I think maybe he should start with Tim, Tony, and RJ in the spot of Mason. After so many years of coming off the bench he's not the same Sixth Man that everybody wants him to always be.

I think Pop stated his intentions to use RJ as their primary perimeter defender, the role that Bruce had for so many years.

That will be a tough act to follow, particularly consecutive games played. Only Paul Pierce's hand chop in Bruce's first season (23 games) and then Chris Paul's antics (1 game suspension) kept Bruce from going longer.

I'm not a big fan of this as a common line-up. But a value of our roster right now is an ability to put out gadget squads like that.

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Originally Posted by Darkwaters

Why?

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'Cause he's 32 now. The spark of the bench crap doesn't apply any more.

I say let's do what 99% of all the other teams do and start our best 5 players: Tony-Manu-RJ-Dice-Tim and bring Hill-Mason-Blair-Mahinmi off the bench.

And stick with that, don't change it every two games, give the guys some time to get comfortable in their roles.

Manu isn't a forward and shouldn't play forward when you have the very capable Richard Jefferson on your team. Manu is a guard...period. Small ball could allow something but I'd put Mason at the forward instead of Manu and that idea is not one I like at all. Let the Spurs coaches pcik the line up these ESPN/media guys will say anything trying to pretend unbias ways for the Spurs to beat their favored team, any team that does have black n sliver and some media starlet to clamor over. Spurs got this...keep your day job Scoop until they pull your plug as well. (Stephen A anyone?)

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Originally Posted by init2winit

Manu bench. RJ start. You have to be REALLY stupid not to start RJ. I hate Manu coming off the bench, I really do but RJ is better so naturally he starts.

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They both can start, bring Mason off the bench.

You waste a lot of Manu's value starting him. You have enough offense in the starting squad, enough shooters, enough slashers, enough facilitators.

Sliding him to the 2nd squad, like usual, ramps up his productivity and value, and creates a huge headache for opposing coaches. I agree these young players aren't as seasoned as we'd like, but they are dynamic, hungry, and learning.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

You waste a lot of Manu's value starting him. You have enough offense in the starting squad, enough shooters, enough slashers, enough facilitators.

Sliding him to the 2nd squad, like usual, ramps up his productivity and value, and creates a huge headache for opposing coaches. I agree these young players aren't as seasoned as we'd like, but they are dynamic, hungry, and learning.

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Manu plays better when he starts.

Manu shouldn't start. He's the spark of the 2nd unit and is a perfect fit there. As far as Jefferson being better, I don't know about that. I'd rather a healthy manu than a healthy jefferson on my team. Manu creates more problems for the defense, thus opening up the spurs attack

I liked you better with the Zack Morris avatar.

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Originally Posted by DAF86

Manu plays better when he starts.

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Has this been proven?

Manu at SF, no thanks.

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Originally Posted by J.T.

I liked you better with the Zack Morris avatar.

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lol..I just noticed yours..Bayside..nice..

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

I admire Scoop Jackson's ability to continue to receive a paycheck for the product he puts out.

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Agreed. That was a pretty shitty article. Bad analysis.

Maybe Bonner back at SF would be a better idea, but then the backcourt would be crowded with fin, hill, and mason.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

Has this been proven?

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I bet there must be some stats out there comparing his numbers when he starts and when he comes off the bench.

Besides most of Manu's best games came with him on the starting line-up.

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Originally Posted by WildcardManu

Maybe Bonner back at SF would be a better idea, but then the backcourt would be crowded with fin, hill, and mason.

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That would suck IMO...the only reason Bonner is worth a crap is because he spreads out the defense by being a big who shoots threes.

If Jefferson doesn't start, someone tampered with the lineup card.

I don't really care if Ginobili starts or comes off the bench. He's probably more useful off the bench due to his ability to carry the second unit. But if he starts, the wear and tear on his body will be less.

So it's a win-win.

I think it needs to be like this---Ian Mahinmi---Tim Duncan---Richard Jefferson---Roger Mason Jr.---Tony Parker....

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Originally Posted by DAF86

I bet there must be some stats out there comparing his numbers when he starts and when he comes off the bench.

Besides most of Manu's best games came with him on the starting line-up.

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I looked it up. There is no difference between Manu's productivity when he starts and when he comes off the bench whatsoever. I mean none. The only difference in his numbers are a result of him playing less minutes from the bench. It's downright freaky.

Manu as a starter / Manu off the bench.

Games: 239 / 239
Minutes: 30:11 / 25:11
Points: 15.8 / 13.7 (16.4 when adjusted for 30:11 minutes)
Rebounds: 4.4 / 3.7 (4.4 adjusted to 30:11)
Assists: 4.0 / 3.2 (3.8)
Steals: 1.6 / 1.4 (1.7)
Blocks: 0.3 / 0.3 (0.35)
FG%: 45.4% / 45.4%
3pt%: 37.4% / 37.8%
FT%: 81.5% / 82.8%

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...&type=Fielding

No, bad idea.

RJ needs to start, and Manu is better when coming off the Bench. I am surprised at how many people think Manu can start. We will have Tony, TD, RJ and Mason all in the Starting Lineup, and all of them can score. It's not good to have all your offensive weapons play and rest at the same time.

Manu works better by providing a huge spark off the Bench. Manu and Finley will lead the 2nd Unit, and Hill and Blair will follow. Our entire Team has a great mixture of veterans (Timmy, Tony, Manu, McDyess), young guys (Hill, Blair, Mahinmi, Hairston) and guys in their prime (RJ, Tony again, Mason and Bonner).

Definitely Manu off the bench, a ball handler, facilitator and vet in the 2nd unit to give leadership to the young guns. I would say he could be just as productive and an integral part of a talented and athletic 2nd unit.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

I looked it up. There is no difference between Manu's productivity when he starts and when he comes off the bench whatsoever. I mean none. The only difference in his numbers are a result of him playing less minutes from the bench. It's downright freaky.

Manu as a starter / Manu off the bench.

Games: 239 / 239
Minutes: 30:11 / 25:11
Points: 15.8 / 13.7 (16.4 when adjusted for 30:11 minutes)
Rebounds: 4.4 / 3.7 (4.4 adjusted to 30:11)
Assists: 4.0 / 3.2 (3.8)
Steals: 1.6 / 1.4 (1.7)
Blocks: 0.3 / 0.3 (0.35)
FG%: 45.4% / 45.4%
3pt%: 37.4% / 37.8%
FT%: 81.5% / 82.8%

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...&type=Fielding

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Nice work. :tu

Yeah, Manu plays the same no matter the situation. You could lock him in the Coyote's dressing room for the first quarter and he'd come out firing in the second quarter.

He might be the only player I've ever seen who plays the same no matter the situation.

Manu will start the season as a starter until Dice and RJ get used to his game so when they starting closing contests they will be familiar with each others game... then Pop will sub him... as usual... :wakeup

If manu is in the second unit he can take some of the point pressure off hill, and with Hill Ian Blair Manu and hairston/finley it gives you a solid second unit. Plus you can have RJ tire LeBron and Kobe and have Manu come in after they are fatigued and run circles around them:toast

We should start 11 guys. Somebody find a loophole on the CBA so we can do that. :hat

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

I looked it up. There is no difference between Manu's productivity when he starts and when he comes off the bench whatsoever. I mean none. The only difference in his numbers are a result of him playing less minutes from the bench. It's downright freaky.

Manu as a starter / Manu off the bench.

Games: 239 / 239
Minutes: 30:11 / 25:11
Points: 15.8 / 13.7 (16.4 when adjusted for 30:11 minutes)
Rebounds: 4.4 / 3.7 (4.4 adjusted to 30:11)
Assists: 4.0 / 3.2 (3.8)
Steals: 1.6 / 1.4 (1.7)
Blocks: 0.3 / 0.3 (0.35)
FG%: 45.4% / 45.4%
3pt%: 37.4% / 37.8%
FT%: 81.5% / 82.8%

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...&type=Fielding

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Nice.:toast

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Originally Posted by timvp

If Jefferson doesn't start, someone tampered with the lineup card.

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:tu

It'd be kind of hard to take on Bowen's responsibilities from the bench.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I don't really care if Ginobili starts or comes off the bench. He's probably more useful off the bench due to his ability to carry the second unit. But if he starts, the wear and tear on his body will be less.

So it's a win-win.

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I've always preferred Manu of the bench, to limit his minutes and allow him to be the focal-point with the second unit, but I tend to agree with you now.

Playing with the starting unit probably lessens his burden/wear and tear and the team now has the depth on the bench to not suffer Manu's loss, too much.

I think from a purely basketball standpoint, allowing Manu and Tony's minutes to not mirror each other's is better for them both as individuals and for the team, but it's not as glaring as it used to be with the added talent.

I haven't decided one way or the other, but I'd base my decision solely on what I believed was best for his health.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe Manu playing longer minutes with more talent is less taxing or playing shorter minutes with less talent is.

I personally rather see Manu off the bench for the main reason of limiting his minutes. Then factor the leadship he brings to the 2nd unit and him along with Hill running the offense you really can't go wrong. The spark Manu and Blair will bring will be a nice sight to see. :tu

Id rather Mason start at the 2 and Manu with the 2nd unit. Mason's quick release spot shot will shine from the inside play of TD and the drive and dish from RJ and TP. heck, RMJ might even average 12ppg this season.
Manu will be the vet leading the young 2nd unit with Hill and Blair. We will kick some ass!

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Originally Posted by DAF86

I say let's do what 99% of all the other teams do and start our best 5 players: Tony-Manu-RJ-Dice-Tim and bring Hill-Mason-Blair-Mahinmi off the bench.

And stick with that, don't change it every two games, give the guys some time to get comfortable in their roles.

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I don't mind that line-up unless Manu's minutes are limited to around 25 a game

This should be our starting lineup. Parker, Mason, Jefferson, McDyess and Duncan.
First player off the bench is Manu then Blair.

This way our defense is pretty good. Also balanced. McDyess can shot the mid-range jumper.

Duncan plays pick and roll with Parker.

Mason and Jefferson provide the 3point threat. Jefferson can also drive some and create his own shot when needed.

This lineup also slows things down which is perfect for the Spurs.

You want more offense and creativity? Sub Manu in. Blair gives a good rebounding presence as a sub who can also score on putbacks (which was sorely lacking last year).

I like this line-up:
PG Parker
SG Manu
SF Jefferson
PF McDyess
C Duncan

FIVE scorers. Not 3, like we've had the past few years. Not 4. But 5. Just pile up the points.

Bench:
PG Hill
SG Mason
SF Finley/Hairston
PF Blair
C Bonner/Mahinmi

I don't really think Manu gets worn out when he comes off the bench cos by that time some of the starters of the other team are already sitting or are close to sitting. Remember when there have been people arguing that Manu's off the bench production is overrated as he doesn't play against starters most of the time? (I actually don't fully agree as he does finish games)

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Originally Posted by peskypesky

I like this line-up:
PG Parker
SG Manu
SF Jefferson
PF McDyess
C Duncan

FIVE scorers. Not 3, like we've had the past few years. Not 4. But 5. Just pile up the points.

Bench:
PG Hill
SG Mason
SF Finley/Hairston
PF Blair
C Bonner/Mahinmi

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Mike D'Antoni? Is that you?

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

I looked it up. There is no difference between Manu's productivity when he starts and when he comes off the bench whatsoever. I mean none. The only difference in his numbers are a result of him playing less minutes from the bench. It's downright freaky.

Manu as a starter / Manu off the bench.

Games: 239 / 239
Minutes: 30:11 / 25:11
Points: 15.8 / 13.7 (16.4 when adjusted for 30:11 minutes)
Rebounds: 4.4 / 3.7 (4.4 adjusted to 30:11)
Assists: 4.0 / 3.2 (3.8)
Steals: 1.6 / 1.4 (1.7)
Blocks: 0.3 / 0.3 (0.35)
FG%: 45.4% / 45.4%
3pt%: 37.4% / 37.8%
FT%: 81.5% / 82.8%

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...&type=Fielding

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Thanks for the stats, I still think he plays better when he starts though. The only season he played all the games as a starter was the season he went to the all-star game and I really doubt he would have played like he did against Detroit in the '05 finals coming off the bench.

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Originally Posted by JustinJDW

No, bad idea.

RJ needs to start, and Manu is better when coming off the Bench. I am surprised at how many people think Manu can start. We will have Tony, TD, RJ and Mason all in the Starting Lineup, and all of them can score. It's not good to have all your offensive weapons play and rest at the same time.

Manu works better by providing a huge spark off the Bench. Manu and Finley will lead the 2nd Unit, and Hill and Blair will follow. Our entire Team has a great mixture of veterans (Timmy, Tony, Manu, McDyess), young guys (Hill, Blair, Mahinmi, Hairston) and guys in their prime (RJ, Tony again, Mason and Bonner).

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Don't you think he can start?

IMO, Manu form the bench is the best solution. If you want to limit his minute to 28-30mpg, it way easier to do it if he comes from the bench. I would be quite surprised if Pop starts him next year.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

IMO, Manu form the bench is the best solution. If you want to limit his minute to 28-30mpg, it way easier to do it if he comes from the bench. I would be quite surprised if Pop starts him next year.

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Hill-Manu-Finley-Blair-Bonner or Ian is not too bad a 2nd unit...

I want to add haislip to our 2nd unit, but I'm just not sure what this guy can do yet...

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Originally Posted by yavozerb

Hill-Manu-Finley-Blair-Bonner or Ian is not too bad a 2nd unit...

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Yes, Spurs are a quite deep team. Spurs roster is damn good.

There's only one rock. With Jefferson and McDyess adding offense to Duncan and Parker, it's even more imperative to have Manu come off the bench where he will get more touches and create offense that the bench doesn't have in spades, like the starters.