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Just curious, we lost Bowen, Timmy's older, we added McDyess and Jefferson both of whom are good defenders but not on the Bowen/Duncan level of a couple of years ago. How do you think can we compete defensively with teams like Cavs, Celts and Magic?
I really hope we can get back on top defensively cos it ALMOST guarantees a :lobt2:.
By Spurs standards I think the defense will be sub par at the beginning of the season. I expect it to be better than last year by the time the playoffs come around.
With all of the new faces next year, I expect our defense to be mediocre at best to start the season. It will no doubt improve later on, but I don't think it will even begin to compare to the defenses of yesteryear. Hopefully our offense and rebounding will be improved enough to overcome that.
I hope that they'll be able to pick it up earlier this season though.
And given our new pieces, I really really hope stubborn Pop does not reappear (which has a good chance as we got two good defenders in McDyess and RJ) and choose offense over defense (more mins to Fin and Bonner). We still do not have a Bowen-caliber defender so I'm really not sure what to expect defensively from this team but I think our defense inside should pick up with McDyess and Blair (hopefully Mahinmi) joining Tim. Perimeter D is still a question mark for me.
Overall, the Spurs perimeter defense will suffer with the loss of Bowen. However, the addition of McDyess and Jefferson, as well as the prospects for a young, athletic, energetic bench (Blair, Hill, Hairston, Ian) will help offset that loss. Those additions will mean the Spurs potentially will field a squad that will be longer and quicker than last year. So long as both Finley and Bonner's minutes are kept to an absolute minimum, their overall team defense should be better.
defensive rebounding is going to improve and this will prevent some of the second chance points that killed us last season.
Do you think Pop has some new defensive sets in place for our new pieces? I'd like our team to be able to play good team defense (no need for an elite perimeter defender) like the Celts (but not necessarily the same schemes).
Agree with this. This is something I'm excited about.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjv
One thing I can tell you, it's going to be a hell of a lot more solid than last year. Probably not at the level of Spurs team in the past, but I think we have enough offensive firepower to overcome that. Rebounding will be the key, and I'd be surprised if we weren't in the top 3 in that category this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by booonkers
The Spurs definitely needed some defensive rebounding and they got it....
They also needed to get younger and they have.....
I still think we need one more piece, not an all-star player but a solid role player either a backup three of post that can contribute solid numbers.
But I think our defense will be better next year if everyone plays their roles to perfection
60ppg
I think we will be much better defensively. As our defense is based on the team concept it is really an issue of coaching and mobile players that are receptive to the coaching. We are much more mobile and the players that have been added are of the mind set that will make them receptive to the coaching. Our players were receptive last year but the mobility factor was overwhelming either due to injury or the lack of athleticism. Pop would often try to mask Bonner in the defensive schemes. Now Pop will be able to play straight up team defense.
Pop seems to have insisted on defense a few years ago when the Spurs didn't have reliable scoring, but I think he's lest insistent on defense now, and more interested in the PG pushing the ball up the floor for transition offense, rather that 19th century set-piece half-court offense. I figure he will be more relaxed this year about defense.
As good as it can be.
on paper the team has improved a lot, but IMO not so much on defense, if at all.
at best Dice will be equal on defense to what we got from Kurt. (much better on offense though). a lot will depend on the role of RJ, of course his size and athleticism would help on defense. we can't count on either Blair or Hairston to upgrade the defense, as long as we didn't see them defend veteran NBA players in regular NBA games. Haislip for sure won't be an upgrade of our defense. maybe when the season goes on.
the biggest effect on defense might come from increased minutes for Hill at the expense of Mason. if Mason's minutes go down to about 20 and Hill's minutes go up to about 25 (means he plays half of his minutes at SG), the backcourt defense will be significantly better.
but for a top defense team, the Spurs will need to find 2 more pieces. (a perimeter stopper and a defensive big. like Foster and Stevenson. just to drop 2 names.)
Well, that settles it.Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
We will rape.
I think We Improved Our Rebounding Drastically, by adding Blair, and mcdyess.... So 2nd Chance Opportunities Should be Slim this Season. But it will Take time For A new group Of Guys to Gel On the overall team defense. We will Be Mediocre In the beginning, and probably 7th or 8th by the time the season is done.
Assuming we don't get Bowen back, the defense will obviously suffer. However, without a good team defense, it doesn't matter if we have Bowen or not. Having a good team defense is better than having one of the best defenders in the league on a team with a mediocre at best defense.
Bowen will be Missed....... but wasnt even in our rotation half the year last year..... His Defense Is Not as good as it used to be..... he is still A Good Defender, but Not a great defender..... I will Always Love Bruce, but the Spurs did the right thing on moving on.....
Perimeter D has always been decent, its the bigs inside which has caused trouble due to poor rotations. Bonner, Gooden, oberto were always out of position. TD was always tryign to help cover their asses and his own man would end up scoring. With Dice and Blair, I think it all comes down to how well they work with Timmy.
I'm predicting our defense may not be as good but this offseason we really needed to get some more offence, we had way too many droughts, costed us alot of games. I still think our defense will be good though, Mcdyess is a really good defender but im not sure about Jefferson.
Bonner was rarely, or never, out of position defensively by 20 games into the season. On offense, he actually made plays and shots nicely up until his "choke" (ie, mason at PG can't pass, tim not being doubled, parker must score, mavs running him off the 3 etc etc etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by YODA
Maybe with gooden gone Bonner will gain back his mojo and i like that Dice came from Detroit, another defensive minded team its going to be a wild card but i think by the all star break people are going to start to realize how much better the spurs got this year! Spurs dont rebuild they reload!:lobt2:
it depends on how many elite wingman ghill can contain below there avgs...we be good.
I'll tell you in February...
Overall, improved. Though we will now lack the lock-down defender on the perimeter elite scorers i.e. Bowen vs. Kobe, we have added depth to our front line, that now allows us to defend around the rim.
Last year, inside around the bucket was wide open, with only Tim to defend. Bonner could not defend inside. With, Dice and Mahimini, we now at least have shot blocking ability, and along with Blair, box out presence in the paint. Hence, more offensive and defensive rebounds, plus added scoring, that should more than makeup for the loss of perimeter defense.
:lobt2:
Since Duncan is not the only Spurs big with balls on this team anymore, it should be better. Blair and Ian didn't look that impressive on defense in SL though.
G Hill one step closer DPOY.
I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but wasn't Mason a pretty good defender back in Washington? I remember reading that the Spurs brought him in in part because they liked his defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainballer
We will have a top 5 Defense this year by the end of the season when it matters
:flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::f lag::flag::flag::flag::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2: :lobt2::king:king
Replacing Bonner's minutes with the raft of new bigs (McDyess, Blair, Mahinmi, Haislip) should reshape the defense for the better. RJ should help shore up the perimeter D, too (as could Hairston and Bowen, should he return).
Hopefully, the Spurs added offense and also improved their defense.
Top tier.
No way to know until the Spurs have played 25 games but since you want to guess before the roster is completely filled in, I'm going to guess:
Top 5 Pts Diff (+/-)
Top 7 Opp FG%
Top 2 Opp PPG
Top 1 Opp APG
Top 12 Opp 3-Pt%
Compared to the rest of the league the Spurs will be one of the best. Compared to previous Spurs teams, the defense this year won't be as good as it was between 03 to 07.
The big benefit to the Spurs this year is that there is way more offensive firepower amongst the guys Pop will be counting on defensively. Last year against the really good teams in the league the Spurs kept getting caught having to choose between a defensive unit that couldn't score enough points and an offensive unit that was porous defensively. Bowen and Kurt were great defensively, but couldn't do much offensively. Mason and Bonner were the opposite. There were too many guys who could only contribute on one side of the floor. Jefferson and McDyess fix that. Blair's rebounding will help too.
i agree that in the beginning of the season, we have to expect a not-so-good defense from the spurs because of new players. Although blair, mcdyess, mahinmi, are quicker compared to oberto, thomas, and bonner, it would take some time for these players to gel defensively. We know the spurs have many defensive plays for them to learn. But i'm expecting them to improve drastically towards the end of the season. If we're number 5 last season defensively, the improvement in our line up means we're gonna be at the top 3 at least this season.
The loss of Bowen, who still defended well the likes of ray allen, cp3, and derrick rose may be felt. But as Hill develops into a solid dfensive player,it may off-set this loss of Bowen.
Also, it's obvious that our defensive rebounding will be better. If Pop would allow McDyess and Blair occasional forays into the lane for offensive rebounding, that would be a big plus.
But the spurs' success still depends largely on the health of Timmy. If he's healthy- i'm looking forward to a very good season for the spurs.
By playoff time we'll be kicking ass and taking names, Social Security #'s, checking account #'s, and credit card #'s.
Pop will have this group in Championship form...especially if we can pick up a good shot blocker to spell our front line from time to time. Can you say Camby!
Good post, but a better comparison would be McDyess >>> Bonner defensively, since he will be the guy largely replacing Bonner's minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
Then if you throw in the athleticism and defensive potential of Haislip and Mahinmi, the rebounding of Blair, and like HH said, the increase in minutes for George Hill, you see that the team has ALOT of potential growth defensively.
Again, like you say - when you consider the team still finished 5th in Defensive Efficiency last season, this season's team has the potential to be a pretty darn good defensive team.
But... the biggest difference makes will be on offense. Spurs finished 13th in the league in points per 100 possessions.
McDyess >> Bonner
Jefferson >>> Finley
Manu >>> Mason
The you have the young guys like Blair, Ian, Malik and George Hill taking minutes and shots from Thomas, Oberto and Udoka.
Initially through lots of hustle the D will be great to watch but then it'll downward slope to a more realistic level around Dec. Then after evaluations Jan.-Feb. games will show how well the defense solidifies to a high level. That's when all the prognosticators will begin attending the church of Blair. :)
We were like top 8 in points scored per 100 posessions last season for defense so we should do fine next season with the upgrades.
i don't think the front office is done just yet. i can't imagine Pop being comfortable without a defender for Kobe Bryant. i don't think he'd want to go to war with LA without a player that can do that. unless he feels Jefferson or Hill can provide that, i would imagine they'll try and trade for or sign someone. if a guys like Raja Bell or Sefelosha (sp?) can't be had, then i hope the Spurs bring back Bowen. as he showed against Dallas, he can still play great defense.
i think if they get a someone mentioned above they'll be a a top 3 defensive team.
The team has the potential to be better efensively than last year. Still don't know much about Haislip's defense. Big Mac and RJ should get the idea right away. Hill should be better and more confident. I think Hairston can help. Mahinmi can change shots in the middle and hopefully he becomes more corrdinated and balanced in his moves. Don't know yet about Blair's lateral quickness but those long arms will help and big body can clog the lane.
No better at all.
Tim09<Tim08
Dyess09=Kurt08
RJ09=Bruce08
Manu09<Manu08
TP09>TP08
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny.Zhu
I don't see Jefferson being an upgrade at defensive end, dude has never been considered defensively good as he could have been with his awesome athleticism and smartness, the upgrades he brings to the other end of floor are quite obviously though. The entire defensive work mainly depends on the improvements of the shorter fences like Mason and Bonner, and Tim's health is also a necessary element to keep our defense great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chieflion
Still a closet Spurs fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
Dyess is absolutely a better player than Kurt on both ends, and the defense at spot 2 will also get upgraded if Fin plays back here. Tony Longoria won't show any big change defensively next season but he is already nice enough for the defensive job as long as he works well at the offensive end. Spurs bench are badly lacking in defensive specialist compared to the starting five, that's why Bruce Bowen will be signed back as an insurance for defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny.Zhu
Bowen didn't play much last year and we added a good defender with younger legs in RJ so compared to last season I would guess this year it would atleast be better. The interior D will depend on how healthy and mobile Tim will be but I think the young guys are going to play a larger role than most think during the regular season. If Matt Bonner is going to be the first center or pf off the bench then don't expect much from the interior D. Ian and Blair have to eat those minutes and I expect Pop to allow them to if for nothing more than size. We can't win with last season's team.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
What game were u watching>? Bonner never out of position? I give him credit for trying, but he was always late on rotations,,,almost always.:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
Any defensive improvement over last year will be better.
Hooey! Bowen hardly played last year. The perimeter defense will be much better w/ RJ instead of Finley. The interior defense will improve w/ McDyess instead of Bonner. After working the new faces in during the 1st half of the season I expect the Spurs to have a top 3 defense after the all star break.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
The defense will be good enough. The upgrade in offense will more than offset it. The spurs will be blowing out teams this year while last year they could not. The point differential will be better this year than it was last year so the team will be better.
The point differential is more important than overall defense.
Not in the playoffs when it matters. Defense wins championships, and even with the offensive upgrades, Pop still knows this. I hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal
Spurs defense will be slightly better than last year, but unfortunately thats not that good. The offensive improvement should be enough to offset that though. SA defense was great a few years ago but either defenses have evolved or the Spurs players have just gotten older/slower, nowadays SA defense is above average but not elite.
Like I said, offensive improvement should be enough to compensate. Get TD completely healthy and he'll do enough to get the job done on D well enough.
I dont know, but just from observation, SA defense wasn't "elite" either this year or last regardless. It wont be next season either, but as we've seen before you don't necessarily need it to be in order to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
I don't think it was elite, I think there was a big drop-off from 3rd to 4th and after..I agree that it doesn't have to be elite though..
The system is elite. The personnel? Not so much. You swap McDyess with Bonner, and Jefferson with Finley for the majority of minutes at those positions, your going to see some improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
No body can say how much better it will be until we see it - but theres definately alot of potential to be better, and thats all you can ask for.
I think we still need to be elite defensively to win it all. And I think we have the chance to be.
To be elite the defense would need someone besides Tim who can protect the rim. The system works at optimum level when there are two mobile shot blockers who can fill lanes when scorers are funnelled their way by wing defenders.
We'll likely be good but not great.
It wasn't elite in 2008 with Kurt Thomas swapped for Bonner and Bruce Bowen in for Finley either. It is the system. I can tell you first hand that defensively, going from SA to Boston last year was like night and day. They made SA's defensive philosophies in the previous series seem primitive. Defenses in the league have gotten better and in comparison the Spurs D, which certainly was elite at a time, has looked worse in comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by mystargtr34
I'll eat my words if upcoming season i'm proven wrong, but I doubt it, highly. I'm just looking forward to seeing a healthy Tim Duncan and how far he can anchor the team against the other superpowers.
Defenses haven't gotten better, that's just a ridiculous argument to make..defense in the NBA hasn't changed at all from 2005 to now, and our defense was elite in 2005 to 2007..that might be the worst argument I've ever heard..
the clear difference between Boston and San Antonio in 2008 was the players, and the fact that Pop decided to single-team Kobe, probably due to the personnel..Boston didn't have a bunch of players in their mid-30s trying to be defensive role players..
how can you possibly blame the system, when I listed everything we had to overcome last year, and still finished 5th defensively?..
It's called the declining of players, clearly..it shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend..we've clearly swapped old for young in most cases, and it will clearly make a huge difference..
I'll go out on a limb and dust off this pearl of wisdom from Whottt:
This team will be so mean it will rip the asshole out of an elephant.
2007?..Quote:
Originally Posted by vic petro
Boston was the #1 ranked defense in games vs every team other than the Lakers, so its not like the decision to single-cover Kobe Bryant was solely responsible for the Spurs defense being worse than Boston's. Cleveland also had a better defense despite starting two dinosaurs in the frontcourt (Z/Wallace) and two midgets in the frontcourt (Mo/Delonte).Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
From observing all 3 defenses, the Celtics and Cavs rotated better, trapped better, switched better. Their defensive philosophies were more aggressive and strategic than SA's.
In addition, the primary defenders on Kobe in the Boston series were all over 30. KG is the same age as Duncan. Allen was 33. Pierce and Posey both over 30. Bowens age was higher but he's never been able to stop Kobe no matter what his age was.
None of the Celtics players were known as great defenders until they played for Boston under Thibodeau. Bostons system was the best in the league and SA's was far from it. McDyess is no better a defender than Kurt Thomas and Jefferson no better than Bowen of 2 years ago. The defense will be what it was then and is now - sufficient given enough complimentary offense.
I'm not blaming the system for anything. You act like I said SA's defense sucks. It doesn't. The defense is not why they lost this year or last year, the offense was. That was obvious.Quote:
how can you possibly blame the system, when I listed everything we had to overcome last year, and still finished 5th defensively?..
I'm just saying the defense is not ELITE in the same sense as a Boston or Cleveland and wont be this upcoming season either, no matter what the personnel is, because the system is not as effective in its most fundamental aspects as the other teams'.
No, it wasn't solely responsible..the better players were, like I said in my previous post..Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
Cleveland didn't have a better defense in 2008, which is my argument..they were 11th with the same system..
I'm not judging our defense in the past season, because there were way too many factors to consider, specifically injuries..
Cleveland was ranked 11th defensively in 2008, under the same system..so let's not compare them here..Quote:
From observing all 3 defenses, the Celtics and Cavs rotated better, trapped better, switched better. Their defensive philosophies were more aggressive and strategic than SA's.
Boston rotated and trapped better, because they had superior players..guys like Rondo and Perkins make a huge difference..
KG had Kendrick Perkins next to him all year, one of the best defensive players in the NBA..Quote:
In addition, the primary defenders on Kobe in the Boston series were all over 30. KG is the same age as Duncan. Allen was 33. Pierce and Posey both over 30. Bowens age was higher but he's never been able to stop Kobe no matter what his age was.
Pierce and Posey took turns as the primary defenders against Kobe and other swingmen..the Spurs didn't have that luxury..we only had Bowen that could do it, and it's tough for a guy in his late 30's to be the only good defensive wing player in a series..
Also, as you said, Kobe has simply always played well against us, even when we had the best defensive in the NBA for years..
When you plug in young players like Rondo and Perkins as your 2nd and 3rd best defenders, it makes a huge difference..
The Spurs were 3rd in the NBA in defense in 2008, I don't understand where you're getting this "far from it" attitude..Quote:
None of the Celtics players were known as great defenders until they played for Boston under Thibodeau. Bostons system was the best in the league and SA's was far from it. McDyess is no better a defender than Kurt Thomas and Jefferson no better than Bowen of 2 years ago. The defense will be what it was then and is now - sufficient given enough complimentary offense.
Boston's players were clearly superior, as I showed before..
KG was always an elite defensive players, Perkins was already considered a good defender, Posey was always considered a good defender, and so was Rondo..the only guy that had his perception changed was Pierce, who was never considered a bad defender..
I agree that McDyess will be the same as Kurt of 2 years ago, and Jefferson will be no better than Bowen was 2 years ago..the Spurs of that year finished 3rd defensively, which can surely be considered elite..that's without the potential defensive upgrades in our young guys that could prove themselves as young defensive role players off the bench..
In what league is #3 in defense not considered elite?..
I'm not saying better personnel wouldn't have helped at all. I'm saying that under a different system SA's defense would have been better regardless of the players. By how much, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
You're right, my mistake.Quote:
Cleveland didn't have a better defense in 2008, which is my argument..they were 11th with the same system..
I'm just recalling pure defensive principles and spacing on the floor on defense. SA was less aggressive and strategic in terms of their player placement. Against SA i'd watch Kobe get the ball in isolation and i'd see the lanes he could take to get where he wanted before he even did it. Against Boston I didnt see any. Thats not personnel, its system spacing and player placement.Quote:
Boston rotated and trapped better, because they had superior players..guys like Rondo and Perkins make a huge difference..
KG had Kendrick Perkins next to him all year, one of the best defensive players in the NBA..
Pierce, Posey, and Allen were part of a wall formed around Kobe at almost all times. They didnt defend him one-on-one for more than a few seconds at a time. Whenever he moved other Celtics players would rotate and trap. SA basically let him get wherever he wanted to. That may have been by design but then thats a good reason the system isn't as good, isn't it? A more flawed design.Quote:
Pierce and Posey took turns as the primary defenders against Kobe and other swingmen..the Spurs didn't have that luxury..we only had Bowen that could do it, and it's tough for a guy in his late 30's to be the only good defensive wing player in a series..
It didnt seem like it. They may have been 3rd but in the postseason after facing SA and then Boston they may as well have been 20th. Thats just how it felt.Quote:
The Spurs were 3rd in the NBA in defense in 2008, I don't understand where you're getting this "far from it" attitude..
Pierce and Allen were never considered good defenders. Posey's rep as a great defender only came after the championship, thats part of the reason he got that huge contract from New Orleans - where coincidentally his defense now is all of a sudden not so reknowned again. Rondo's defensive tag came with the assembly of the '08 team as well.Quote:
KG was always an elite defensive players, Perkins was already considered a good defender, Posey was always considered a good defender, and so was Rondo..the only guy that had his perception changed was Pierce, who was never considered a bad defender..
In contrast, Duncan is as good a defender as KG. Kurt Thomas was viewed just as highly defensively as Perkins, again, until the '08 team formed - only then did his rep increase to defensive stalwart. Bowen was viewed higher than Posey. Manu the same as Allen or Pierce. It was only when that championship superteam was formed that these guys' reps inflated to what they are now. And they all echoed the same sentiments when asked why the defense of the team was so good - the system and Tom Thibodeau.
Maybe thats where we're getting mixed up here. I mean elite in universal terms. If you have a weak defensive league, there can be a #1 ranked team that still isn't an elite defensive team, just the best in a pool of average talent. Being ranked #3 doesn't necessarily mean you had an elite defensive team either.Quote:
In what league is #3 in defense not considered elite?..
The Spurs have not been an elite defensive ballclub since '07.
I think at the beginning our defense will be average.
Too many new faces playing together. It will take Pop a while to lock down any kind of rotation. Our pace will be quicker and we'll score more points to offset the average defense. As players become more familiar with the system and each other, our defense will improve. I expect to see more blowouts this year. There is potential for us to be top 3 defensively by the end of the year.
:lol:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
It's time for you to stick your head back up your ass.
Also agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
Spurs will be better with younger more athletic players and better rebounders, there's no way the Spurs don't improve unless their IQs turn to mush. Spurs should be able to play a much more aggressive form of defence this coming season. They should be a top 3 defensive team in every sense of the term. Pop is probably sleeping like a baby with our potential next year. He probably is getting stiffies just thinking about his defensive options.:lol
If I was a Laker fan I'd be worried about the PG situation and your bench. I'm sure a scheme is in place to trade Vujacic for Rudy Gay.:bang