take the burden completely away from businesses and watch how much support you will get from everyone.:toast
problem solved. anyone have any real problems for me to solve.
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take the burden completely away from businesses and watch how much support you will get from everyone.:toast
problem solved. anyone have any real problems for me to solve.
So you're down with classifying employer provided health care benefits as taxable compensation?
can you read?
Yes, I believe that my literacy is sufficient. Not sure why you are getting pissy with me.
If employers don't supply health care anymore thats a moot point ain't it.
um no
And we pretend that the federal government has 'done nothing' in the health care industry. It has done too much, way too much, already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbpkb81
...are you an idiot.
let me explain.
if healthcare is run by the government 100% then people do not have to pay for healthcare, then business do not have to pay for healthcare.
Then no one gets a tax exemption and/or subsequent tax on healthcare benefits they DO NOT pay for anymore.
in other words 0x0=0
..and I love 0.
Do you often end a question with a period?Quote:
Originally Posted by antimvp
You mean it's free?
AWESOME!
So you're saying doctors will work for free, drug companies will create drugs for free, etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by antimvp
:lol
I like how he started it with an ellipsis.Quote:
Originally Posted by elbamba
It maybe indicates dramatic caesura. Hard to tell. Wikipedia recommends the *train tracks*, but uses the comma.
If employers quit offering healthcare, watch 10s of millions of hate-govt right-wingers support a public insurance option rather than pay their own $13K/family-of-four per year.
Middle-class real income has stagnated for 20 years?
No, it hasn't, because employers have been paying your "raises" to the for-profit health insurance companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan
no, but the people will get free to low cost(subsided) healthcare.....fuck the rest.
Wait... How is it getting paid for if no one is paying for it? I think I missed a step...
Let me go over this and you can correct me...
1. Companies stop providing health care.
2. Government provides health care.
3. No one pays for it, with no bump in our taxes.
4. Companies continue to produce goods and services for free, since its not getting paid for.
I don't get it. Why are companies producing goods and services without getting paid for it?
Free Health Care isn't a new concept. Places have been doing it for quite a while now that have a stronger economy than we do.
Try talking to someone that used to live in Germany and see what they think about American health care.
ITS NOT FREE! Its being paid for, 8% of your salary, plus a similar amount from your company.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm1221
Reading this guy's position reminded me of this...
http://21.media.tumblr.com/HFhFVYNbr...JcYHi2_500.png
Define "stronger."Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm1221
I don't think people realize that the same entity that collects taxes pays for social programs.
I lived in Germany! I lived and worked in Germany. First, everybody pays into the system-everybody. On the contrary, this US health care reform bill only has 2-3% of Americans footing the bill for the rest of the 97% of Americans.
Speaking from my personal experience, and not a utopian reading of a system. I delivered a child with no epidural (spouse and myself were not happy with that) because the Doctor couldn't get to us all night because he was busy with other patients who were in need of more pressing care!
We also watched my friends brother-in-law die of cancer because they misread his films and didn't figure it our until a year later. I can tell you from experience that is not the system I want to be in. It is not better than the quality of care we get in the US. It all seems greener on the other side but it is not.
Finally, leadership changes, and when this happens, this will bite the 97% of Americans in the ass harder because it will affect them worse than it will the 3%. If everybody wants this reform, everybody has to suck it up. Problem is many people do not want the reform that's in this bill because it's government run. And the government option will be cheaper because it's subsidized. How can costs be cheaper when there is no competition?
My grandmother was 84 and still active and healthy when she fell and broke her hip. They said there wasn't much they could do so they gave her pain meds and let her bleed out. Took two days for her to die. Try asking someone who used to live in Germany and knows a little about both systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm1221
But hey, you vacationed in Germany so you think you know what the fuck your talking about. Since you know so much about it maybe you can answer this question. How many American physicians will choose another career if we copy the German system?
Quote:
Striking German Doctors Shed Light on System Ills
Germany | 24.03.2006
Some 20,000 doctors at German state-run hospitals lay down their stethoscopes this week demanding better pay and work conditions. Can the country afford to pay its doctors more -- and can it afford not to?
On Wednesday afternoon, several dozen physicians stood outside the University Hospital of Cologne, cleaning the windows of stopped cars. The action was meant to show that they are treated more like menial labor than highly trained professionals.
Doctors across Germany went on strike after the state tariff association, which represents university hospital employers, sought to increase the official working week to 42 hours from 38.5. But the physicians' union, the Marburger Bund, argued this would mean a pay decrease in real terms. They demanded a 30 percent wage increase in turn.
Negotiations reached an impasse last week, leading to preliminary strikes that have since grown. Altogether, more than 20,000 M.D.s have stopped work across the country in staggered protest strikes (only non-urgent medical services have been affected so far.) On Wednesday, more than 5,000 white-coated doctors turned up for a massive protest march in Hanover.
Offer 'too bad to take'
According to Rudolf Henke, vice chairman of the Marbuger Bund, accepting the 42 hour-week would mean a real loss to physicians of up to 15 percent of their earnings.
"We know in the end we have to negotiate (over the 30 percent wage increase demand,) but I have to say, the employers’ offer to date is just too bad to accept," Henke said.
Exploratory talks Thursday had failed to bring about a deal, but both sides agreed to further negotiations next week.
The M.D.s also argue that most hospital physicians work way more than 42 hours each week already -- hours they aren’t compensated for. And they complain they are underpaid for on-call shifts, and have steadily lost holiday pay.
"The general public people think doctors earn really well. But when it comes to hospital doctors, that’s not the case," said Roland Teufer, head of anaesthesiology at the Community Hospital of Traunstein in southern Germany. "Clinic doctors generally work a lot of overtime hours, well more than 38.5 hours, and they aren’t paid for it."
Germany: lowest wages
Indeed, a 2004 study by UK economic research group NERA showed German hospital physicians at the rock bottom of a list of 11 western countries in terms of compensation, earning between 35,000 and 65,000 euros ($41,000 to $77,000) per year. A similar OECD study showed German physicians earning 15 percent less than their counterparts in the UK, and 40 percent less than US doctors.
Ulrich Rieger, president of the state tariff association, TdL, says the situation isn’t as bad as it looks. He claims the income earned through billing privately insured patients actually boosts the pay of many hospital doctors. (Doctors reply that this used to be true, but is no longer the case due to changes in insurance and billing.)
Service-based pay?
Meanwhile, Rieger and TdL are proposing a pay system that would reward doctors with better results. "In this system, a doctor who consistently performs a successful operation in two hours would earn more than one who did the same operation in five hours," said Rieger.
Marburger Bund’s Henke said he is not opposed to rewarding certain excellent doctors, but pointed out that such a plan does not address the overall pay disparity issue.
Besides, he asks: "How do you determine what constitutes a good service? Is a good service sitting for a half hour by the bedside of someone who just got a bad cancer diagnosis, or is it doing three ultrasound scans in the same time?"
The physicians' strikes are taking place against a backdrop of widespread labor unrest in Germany: Trash collectors , nurses, maintenance workers and other public servants have been on strike for seven weeks.
So is it hard for the public to feel sympathy with physicians, who are generally seen as a cadre of economic elites?
Perhaps, Henke said. But he added: "We don’t want social pity. It's just that physicians have jobs that are very responsible, difficult, and sometimes dangerous. They require constant advanced training and further eductation, a very very long education period, and that all needs to be fairly compensated."
Long-time problem
The problem with physicians' pay is not recent. "It has been a political problem for the past 20 years, but it's been ignored," Henke said.
Up to the end of the 1990s, a glut of doctors meant the oversupply of labor made it possible for employers to get sweet deals. Today, however, there is a physician shortage. Now, the relatively poor pay and difficult conditions have led to a mini-exodus of doctors fleeing Germany for the UK, Scandinavia and elsewhere.
"In my opinion, Germany's low-qualification jobs are overpaid, so those jobs are going overseas," said Henke. "At the same time, our qualified people earn far too little. That leads to a brain drain of all professionals ... But for physicians it is particularly extreme, because of the capped budgets at state hospitals."
The budgets are the problem, of course: While hospital physicians may well deserve more money, there are those who point out that in its current ecnomic doldrums, Germany has no extra money to throw around.
Demand called 'unrealistic'
The doctors' cause was recently dealt a PR blow when German Health Minister Ulla Schmidt publicly called their 30 percent pay hike demand "unrealistic" and said the parties should sit down and find a solution, fast.
Traunstein Clinic's Teufer pointed out that in places where doctors earn more, the care is either much more expensive, or less extensive, than in Germany.
"The countries that pay their doctors more often have more restrictions on benefits. Patients have to wait longer for treatment -- in Holland you can wait six months for a hip replacement, and here you get it in four to six weeks," he said.
"Germany still tries to provide a lot of its medicine via the state -- and makes it immediately available. That costs a lot, and we don’t have a lot of money available. It is done at the expense of the doctors."
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1942544,00.html
They realize it, but assume someone else will pay for the free shit they foolishly believed a politician would give to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabar
I'm not saying I know the answers, but something has to change. US Healthcare is terrible.
The more claims insurances reject the more money they make.
Have any of you been to the emergency room lately? I hate to break it to you but people are already getting free health care and you are already paying for it. Emergency rooms can't refuse to treat someone, and guess who picks up the tab? You really think that aspirin you got cost the hospital the 7 bucks they charge you for it?
Doctors see patients as quick as they can to get the next person in so they can stay profitable. I went to the Doctor the other day because I had a giant painful purple spot on my leg. The doctor walked right in, wrote me an rx for an antibiotic and walked out in less than a minute. Didn't even ask me to pull up my pants to see the bite/infection/cancer/whatever the hell it was...
Doctors prescribe medications for incentives from drug companies. Not because one works better than others. Every time I'm sitting in a doctors office I watch at least 2 drug reps go in to talk to the doctor while I have to sit there and wait for an hour and 1/2 to see the dr for 1 minute. The drug reps get more time with the dr than a patient??
The guy in the office next to me at work has Crones. He will be paying off medical bills for his entire life. I'm sure he'll still have 50,000 in debt when he dies. AND he has insurance.
I pay $250 a month for insurance. Yet I still pay %20 percent of my bill after I meet a $750 deductible. I have to have a procedure done every 2 years and I usually end up paying over $1,000 bucks out of my pocket. I take 2 meds and my wife takes 4. I spend about $100 a month for prescriptions. So that comes to about $4700 a year on average. That doesn't even count dr visits and random illnesses.
I couldn't even imagine trying to pay for all that shit on 35 or 40k a year like a lot of normal people make, and keep up with bills and pay for food.
The US is the only first world country that doesn't have Universal Healthcare. Period.
Ratm-this universal government bill will only make your waiting times worse. A change just to make a change will not take care of these problems. We have to reform the insurance companies and drug companies. This bill doesn't do that. The CBO states that,in fact, this bill increases medical costs and puts more of the burden of health care on the federal government.
Also, if you don't like the quality of health care you're getting now, you're going to like the government run reform even less. A government system that covers 45 million more Americans will be anything but efficient nor will it cut down in costs.
Your waiting time will grow exponentially and that's after you've made your appointment days and weeks in advance.
This bill is an illusory dream. When you wake up it'll be a nightmare.
Again, of all anti-government-health-care arguments, the 'waiting time' one is the weakest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursmania
If one doesn't like the long waiting time, surely they could keep a private plan right?
Then people say, "But businesses will be at odds with cheaper government care, until the government has a monopoly on service!"
But... if the government service is so bad, that will create a market for quick medical service, even if it's pricy. But richer people should be able to afford the faster medical service.
Which brings into focus the other leg of the anti-govt. healthcare camp....healthcare prices increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Yes, creation of a government health care will split health care into two 'tiers' as it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
Free, crappy, long-waiting healthcare, or pretty damn expensive, specialized, relatively quick healthcare.
So you want it paid for with "Other Peoples Money?"Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm1221
Screw that.
Maybe the USA is the best nation in the world because we haven't yet been as socialized as other nations...
Think about that!
Are you a red man now WC or just sports crazed?
It stopped being fashionable for white people to claim native ancestry about 30 years ago...back then it was about every third or fourth kid it seemed to me.
Do you actually have some?
Wait wait, don't tell me.Quote:
You do but you never claimed it on any official paperwork.
I am not as worried about people who are uninsured as I am people who have the 'best' insurance and get dropped when they need it the most.
When you don't get a service you paid for, that is a flawed system. That is a corrupt system. That is a broken system...
On a side note, I have no idea why companies are flipping the bill for their employees. Why shouldn't all employees have the right to choose their health care themselves? I don't want benefits from my company. I want a better paycheck, so I can pick and choose my services as I see fit.
Aside from this, corporations are 'imaginary people' that are created with the blessing of the government to help facilitate certain aspects of making business. They are afforded certain rights and privileges. But that comes with a cost: increased government scrutiny and cost double taxation. That is how it should be. If you don't like it, be a sole proprietor...
Yes, I actually have Cherokee and Blackfoot in me. However, what I posted is my High School mascot. I ran across this pic, and decided to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
I agree. Corporations are creatures of the state and should be limitable at will like their progenitor, the royal franchise.Quote:
Aside from this, corporations are 'imaginary people' that are created with the blessing of the government to help facilitate certain aspects of making business. They are afforded certain rights and privileges. But that comes with a cost: increased government scrutiny and cost. That is how it should be. If you don't like it, be a sole proprietor...
One of the costs of extending 14th amendment protection and free speech to these fictional, notionally eternal persons, is that their advice to our representatives often becomes the law. Corporations have evidently captured our politicians and our political process to the common detriment.
The legal foundations of corporate personhood ought to be revisited IMO, lest they grow big enough to make the state itself a dependent.
The corporation is a burgeoning titan; the state is Uranus. I'd say get ready for the new Zeus, but his footprints are all over us already.
The Predator State
America is fully "corporatised", corporate money has captured law making and enforcement agencies. Corps are now supra-national entities, often more wealthy and powerful than the (corrupt) countries they operate in. Intended side effect: disenfranchisement of citizens. The Repugs are openly "business friendly" whores and mafia, with consumers, employees, citizens, patients getting fucked and drained of their wealth.
:tu :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Not to mention that the state and those zombies often collaborate to get what they want out of the people, and that's not just greater subsidies or desired regulations. Naturally campaign finance reform would not address this fundamental problem, much like health care "reform" does not address the fundamental problem in the health care industry. The corporate state is an ever present reality today. And we pretend elections matter.
I agree that the idea of personhood for a corporation, eternal personhood at that, is ridiculous and begs to be abuse the system.
...they have names for these types of govts.......Banana Republics...
Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons_deux
As opposed to Democrats, who are corrupted in secret.
I actually agree that super corporations are evil, but anything that gets as large as they have will be evil by nature, government included.
Power corrupts, and money corrupts, a strong centralized government (or corporation) also centralizes the corruption. What do you people think is going to happen when more and more power is taken from the hands of the people and given to the government? You think our current disenfranchisement is bad, just wait, when the UN is running everything in 100 years, its going to get a lot worse.