He is absolutely correct that the American econony, in the long run, is dependent on reducing HC expenses. I now pay 20% of my income on HC. We need a system where EVERYONE spends the same % of their incomes for the same HC.
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He is absolutely correct that the American econony, in the long run, is dependent on reducing HC expenses. I now pay 20% of my income on HC. We need a system where EVERYONE spends the same % of their incomes for the same HC.
Exactly. The government should require that every individual pay what they are able to, and be given everything which they need. What a sweet arrangement that would be.
Let's not stop with health care either.
Marxism here we come:toastQuote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
At least we can feel safe knowing social security will save us, in the long run.
Glad we increased the deficit by trillions ensuring we will come out stronger, in the long run.
I am a proud American knowing my government always has, the long run, in mind when making policy.
This is definitely an interesting, bullshit-filled address.
:vomit: I'm forcing myself to watch this because he is our president. This guy fucking SUCKS!
Obama's talking about the Matrix, I think.
:sleepSame old shit... Just rack up the debt, why the hell not...
He's concerned about the debt. He said so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursmania
Pretty damn pathetic on just about every account. This country is fucked.
All talk no plan. Didn't even talk about how he will pay for this plan.
Someone please tell me what his plan is?
Obama seems so disingenuous whenever he tries to assure us, "this is America, it's good to make a profit."
Maybe it's because he also says things like, "we need to take away the profit motive" and "we need to constrain compensation."
Frankly, we should be appalled at our government's dithering on this very important issue. Obama won a majority of the support of the people! He shouldn't have to deal with the Congress for something this urgent. It's time we move beyond politics and implement the agenda which obviously a majority of the people voted for him to make law. We need a much more efficient government than this farce!
Pfff...
Cenk explains the secret Republican Strategy on Health care
Fear not. Obama is just a man, he can neither save us nor destroy us.
This thread wouldn't be complete without:
:cheer :cheer :cheer
I thought that the biggest threat to our economy was that China has us by the balls, thanks to the huge amounts of money that the US government owes them... Silly me. Its obviously HC, where the money at least stays in the country for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr1trekkie
Thank you! I had no idea WTF he said, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursmania
I'm not concern of the economic threat the Chinese pose. If they demand payment on the notes, I believe it would do us more good than bad. It would drop the value or our dollar dramatically to the rest of the world. Their goods to us would be more expensive, along with other imports. Our good would be more appealing to others, and the trade balance might be restored.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
I believe China has a vested interest in not hurting our currency!
I have an honest fear however of the socialistic liberals destroying our nation from within. Yes, health care needs fixed. You do it be removing the financial burdens. Not placing in more.
Yeah, the problem is what happens if we default on those loans? Or if they use them as a weapon, and force us into choices we don't really want to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Having loans in the hands of a potential enemy is BAD.
Seriously. Worse case, what can happen if they want to cash in the bonds they hold? Think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
We default, and have to transfer assets commiserate to the amounts that we default on. The UN would support China, because, face it, its the appropriate thing. Either that, or our taxes will skyrocket to pay for the loans...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Also, we have no control over what China can do, we can control what our government can do, at least theoretically.
ok. a couple of things. his "why rich people come to america for healthcare" logic is pretty weak(dumb). "they come here to splurge"?...........Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
really?
let's see.....wine from america or wine from france? hmmm yeah that's a tough one. american cheese or cheese from france? clothing from an american designer or clothing from a french designer? hmmmmm tough one. and i would think the average somali wouldn't have the grip to come to america for healthcare. and this idiot is blaming us for that country's ills. if someone was trying to convince me that "splurge"ing is the only reason that many foreign leaders and rich people come here to get treated is doing a horrible job at trying to change my view.
now on to his theory on why republicans want a mandate that everyone gets insured through private companies instead of the public option...............i really don't know the in's and out's of this guy's statement, but before we go to that; i'd like to know what this guy thinks of the tax and tax(cap and trade) bill. the whole involvement of the government, GE, Enron Wind, Carbon Credits, jeffrey immelt and all that. also come to think of it GE is involved in healthcare too. does this guy know that? seems like this guy looks for the R and D then attacks or doesn't attack.
OK, so we print money like mad to cover the costs, and the dollar drops on the world market. Right? Isn't that the best way to do it? The bonds are in dollars. Not yen, euros, etc. If they force us to pay them off, they get less than they invested. No legal way to prevent us from just printing the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Am I wrong?
Ah yes, because rampant inflation is a great thing... So we print all this money, and crash our economy worse than any depression we have seen yet. Thats better than the gradual decline into socialism? What happens if they time this with other events to cause the most possible damage to our economy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
No, that's easy. Dundee, OR has some of the best wines in the world now. Just a little known secret. Oregon wines have become as good or better than California and French wines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas
Cheese from the Tillamook Cheese factory in Tillamook, OR. It really is great stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas
France may have us there, but then I don't give a damn about designer clothes. How many Americans do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas
Now maybe I'm not understanding things, but can you explain to me how it affects our buying power of USA goods? I see it as only changing the value of our currency on the world market. Only imports should increase in price. Domestic items should remain the same. If I'm wrong, please tell me how.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Please, I'm all ears if I'm wrong.
What domestic items? We are a net importer. Our food is subsidized, so admittedly, that might not change a huge amount for production, but transportation costs will increase, so if inflation goes crazy, gas prices will sky rocket, thereby increasing food costs. And imports costing more will screw us...
If the dollar loses value, salaries won't react enough either, so for an extended period, people will be making the same amount, while their dollar gets less, not a good thing. People on fixed incomes will be screwed, namely old people. Old people also make up a fair percentage of population, and if they stop spending, our consumer driven society takes a hit. Large scale inflation is VERY bad.
Sorry, but I really think the good outweighs the bad. Yes, oil prices will rise, but we can tap more of our own reserves. Yes, imports will cost more, but we can open new factories and put people back to work. Sorry, but I see a bigger upside than downside to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Does it affect the price of domestic made goods, that have almost no transportation cost? If so, how? If it doesn't, then there is only a long term upside to the dollar losing ground to foreign currencies.
What domestic goods have no transportation costs? Our economy isn't built like that, we have industry that is centralized in a few cities, and then their goods are shipped across the country, there won't be anyway to build new factories, because no one will be loaning anything. Banks couldn't afford it, because they would lose money...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Internal changes are easier to control then sovereign countries, so forgive me if I'm more concerned about stuff that we have no control over, and confident that we can fix the stuff we can control...
I didn't say no cost, but little. I don't know transportation costs, but when you break it down per item, it's usually pretty small. So you add a penny to the cost of a can of corn. So what.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Wow... Such negative thinking. Things happen when necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
I only see the fixes in place by congress as harming us as a nation. I want to see the dollar drop at least 25% in value. It won't happen overnight, but it would make it cost effective to bring blue collar jobs back to America. I can stand a few years of pain to give my children a better future.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
So "socialism" is bad, unless you wrap it in big guns and the flag.
That "Obama-nos" bumper sticker? Gold.
all praise the great lord barrack!
You don't shoot yourself in the foot to run faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
We also don't need to stock factories full of people to produce things like the Chinese do.
We do need to produce things though. That means less spending on crap from overseas and more investment at home. You can do both those things without blowing your currency up.
More like the post-leftism of Europe and the cosmopolitans. Social democracy. Think Willy Brandt and Mitterand. We already resemble it more than somewhat in the degree power penetrates everyday life and commercial opportunities, and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursmania
Really? How. The free market does not work that way. We have a tax structure that is counterproductive to trade. We have the 2nd highest corporate income tax rates in the world. We cannot compete, because government represses us.Quote:
Originally Posted by angrydude
Please explain to me how we can compete.
Whoever claims that going through a hyper inflationary cycle is a 'necessary evil' has absolutely no clue what it's like AND has not gone through one. It's not just transportation costs. We have come to rely almost exclusively on foreign manufacture of goods, which will become super expensive and the new cost will be passed down to the consumers.
And you can't simply think we're going to expand our manufacturing capacity overnight, especially on a economy in crisis. Example: Building a chip fab can take 1 to 2 years until it goes in online just for an average production output. What do you do in the meantime? Let the high tech industry in the nation die a slow death? The same industry that equips a lot of our military?
In a hyper inflationary cycle, basic things like milk costs 2x what it is now at the beginning of the month, and 20x by the end of the month. Salaries, as usual, are the last one to be adjusted. It almost always leads to riots and looting.
Then there's the problem that probably about half of the economies in the world back up their currency with the dollar, which is supposed to be a strong currency. If that's no longer the case, then you'll compound the problem because you're going to force them to go to euros or the like. And at that point you're relinquishing economic power that we've used as leverage to other nation(s).
Now, it might help the internal market in the long run, but the price is to basically stop being a super power.
I don't have time to look for it right now but there is a youtube video of Ron Paul going off on Bernanke about the inflation he will be creating and Bernanke actually responds with "Inflation is only an issue if they buy imported goods".:depressedQuote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Please buy a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I'm not talking about hyper inflation. If that occurs, it will be because of all of the current congress and president spending more and more money.
Just cause you aren't talking about it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a very real situation that could occur if China made us repay our debts all at once, in an inopportune time for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
First of all, they couldn't "make us pay all at once." These bonds have various time frames for redemption. I doubt China holds enough of our money to cause hyper inflation anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
This is how I understand it. If you have evidence to the contrary, please direct me to it. If we just printed money, and spent it in our own economy, that's inflation that can go out of control. That's what post WWI Germany did. To print money to put in the hands of a foreign government only changes the currency exchange rates, and the price of imports. It becomes a real slow process for that money to make back to our shores, where it will slowly make changes that we will keep up with. At the same time foreign goods are more expensive, businesses will bring jobs back here. Supply and demand of labor will bring wages back to living wage levels. Even flipping burgers will par better, and we will likely have people leaving the welfare roles.
You know what. It sure would help our economy and jobs is corporate tax rates were dramatically slashed, or eliminated. It would help more if we went to a consumption based tax and left the income tax system behind.
You don't have to request payment for bonds at once. It would certainly be within their rights to hold onto all the bonds until they are all due.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I still find it highly amusing that you fear the government that you can change more than you do the sovereign nation that you can't.
That's true, but that would be stupid. Let's say they wanted to do economic damage. What if we said, Ooops... We cannot pay you. Here's an IOU...Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
I don't fear them over money. I do have other concerns. To make such an assumption degrades the level of respect I have for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
You still haven't told me how printing money and giving it to them hurts us. What are they going to do with it? How is it any better for them than the treasury notes? It does nothing till they start buying things. I guess they could build a large corporation here in America and call it Onmi Consumer Products. Now that would scare me.
Not saying you fear them over money. I'm just saying that We The People have control over our government, convince enough people that your views are right, and the government changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Convince enough people that China shouldn't wage an economic war with us, and watch China not give a shit.
I do fear our government. They are spending us into oblivion. I don't see how paying China will do any harm. You haven't explained yet how. As long as the money is in the world market, it just devalues our dollar. It would take probably as many years to come back into our economy as it did to build up that debt. The markets will adjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Sorry if you think I'm an ass about this, but you only offer fear. Describe to me precisely how it hurts. us. Stop with empty statements that have no basis in fact. If they do, school me.
I, and others, tried explaining how inflation caused by printing large amounts of money was bad. If you disagree, thats fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Here are some articles to read, see if they explain my point to your satisfaction.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08.../profile3.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/ryan/ryan38.html
I'll read them later. Rather long for me at this time of day. I got off a graveyard shift 7 hours ago, and I'm in serious need of rest now. I would appreciate if you summarize the important part. If I have time, I'll log on before I go to work tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Oh... Printing large amounts of money would be bad in we directly infused into our economy. I agree with that. Once printed and given to a foreign nation, it cannot cause the same harm unless it can be infused in our economy fast. At least that's my understanding.
The majority of the people in America agreed with Obama's vision for America, so I don't understand why the Democrats (which hope to use his grassroots networks in the next round of elections) are fighting him over the most important issue to him.
I'd like to see Obama be up front about the real sacrifices we're going to face with his health care plan, since I don't know myself because I'm too lazy to research, but I can't see how it could do anything worse for America than the Bush Presidency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell
While I think the health care plan is flat wrong, it wouldn't be such a huge deal if the bill contained a good plan for revoking it if it doesn't work. Unfortunately, no one seems to have a backup plan for it. At least not from what I've read.
The thing is, with reps I can play the game and make money off of their making of money. I even get to keep a lot of it and do with it as I please (big gas-guzzling trucks, etc). Yeah they are in it for themselves, but they don't care about you! That's a good thing compared to in it for themselves, and making sure you can't play along!
With the dems, they wreck the balance by trying to make everyone dependent on the government, take away your money, implement programs to keep people from getting to their level (all while masking it in fake smoke-and-mirrors compassion), and try to control your life (in a different way than the social conservatives). That game sucks.
Cliff Notes:
Republicans: Every man for himself, two men enter - one man leave mentality.
Democrats: Everyone is getting fucked in this system except government, so I can only hope to outrun my fellow comrades while the bear chases us all down!
Basically, yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfAGun
Hey, we can provide you with health care, food, jobs, housing, and protection. All you have to do is give us all your money and do what we tell you.
Good intentions I think, but too much sacrifice.
Health care is not the problem. It's costs and this plan does nothing to reduce costs as the CBO proved. Further this will reduce the quality of health care all of us get since health care would be rationed, and we would be on waiting lists to see doctors like they are in Canada and Great Britain. It's not worth sacrficing the greatest health care system in the world to give more people a basic health plan. Quality will be gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
The liberals are going crazy with power at this time, and it's always scary when Congress has no checks and balances to keep their power in check.
people come to the US for health care from other countirs.
If this bill passes, a panel of people selected will be the ones deciding which procedures we can and cannot get. Individual choice will be taken away.
Yep. Its a scary time whenever one party controls both congress and the executive. Nothing good ever comes of it. Look at the most recent period of good times for the US. Democrat pres, republican congress, and Bill Clinton gets to be remembered for being a good president (sorta). All because one party couldn't fuck it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursmania
Yes you are. Do you have any clue how much we owe them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
If your suggestion is to print money for all the debt, then you sure as hell are talking about hyper inflation and massive devaluation of the dollar.
A more sensible approach is to default on part of the debt, and arrange a payment schedule with a reduced rate. Basically, your typical debt restructuring where you end up paying cents on the dollar.
:toastQuote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
Do you know what Hyperinflation is?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Inflation FAQ’s:This is what I think of when I hear hyperinflation, from wiki; :Quote:
What is hyperinflation?
Very simply, hyperinflation is runaway inflation or inflation that is "out of control." The definition used by most economists is “an inflationary cycle without any tendency toward equilibrium.”
Zimbabwe’s 2008 economy is a recent example of hyperinflation. In July of 2008, $100 billion banknotes were introduced in an effort to combat severe money shortages. While huge in face value, a single note was still not enough to buy one loaf a bread.
I assume you think of this example:Quote:
Germany
Germany went through its worst inflation in 1923. In 1922, the highest denomination was 50,000 Mark. By 1923, the highest denomination was 100,000,000,000,000 Mark. In December 1923 the exchange rate was 4,200,000,000,000 Marks to 1 US dollar.[14] In 1923, the rate of inflation hit 3.25 × 106 percent per month (prices double every two days). Beginning on 20 November 1923, 1,000,000,000,000 old Marks were exchanged for 1 Rentenmark[14] so that 4.2 Rentenmarks were worth 1 US dollar, exactly the same rate the Mark had in 1914.
Really timk it would get that bad? Remember, any money we print for paying off the debt to overseas holders does not come back anytime soon. Just being out there, it effectively changes the trade balance.Quote:
Argentina
Argentina went through steady inflation from 1975 to 1991. At the beginning of 1975, the highest denomination was 1,000 pesos. In late 1976, the highest denomination was 5,000 pesos. In early 1979, the highest denomination was 10,000 pesos. By the end of 1981, the highest denomination was 1,000,000 pesos. In the 1983 currency reform, 1 Peso argentino was exchanged for 10,000 pesos. In the 1985 currency reform, 1 austral was exchanged for 1,000 pesos argentinos. In the 1992 currency reform, 1 new peso was exchanged for 10,000 australes. The overall impact of hyperinflation: 1 (1992) peso = 100,000,000,000 pre-1983 pesos.
Those articles do nothing but fearmonger without answering my question. Thanks for wasting my time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1617
I want an explaination of how. Not what.
Calling national default a sensible alternative to hyperinflation raises the hair on the back of my neck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
The US has never defaulted. Good thing, since there's nothing but our promise to pay backing the USD. Once the full faith and credit of the USA acquires a dent, it could be the beginning of the end of our superpower status.
Between the Scylla of currency collapse and the Charybdis of national default, the middle road is apparently Keynesianism, socialized risk, nationalization and jobless recovery. Maybe for a whole decade, like Japan. Maybe even for longer. And that's one of the brighter outcomes. :depressed