This week, two more Guantanamo detainees -- Khaled Al-Mutairi from Kuwait and Mohamed Jawad of Afghanistan -- were ordered released by federal judges on the ground that there was insufficient evidence to justify their detention. The Washington Independent's Daphne Eviatar notes this amazing fact: "In 28 of 33 Gitmo detainee cases heard so far, federal judges have found insufficient evidence to support keeping them in prison." Virtually all of those detainees were held for many years without charges and with no opportunity for judicial review. Once they finally got into a court, federal judges (including Bush-43 appointed judges) in the vast majority of cases concluded there was virtually no credible evidence ever to justify their detention. Just consider what that fact, standing alone, means about what our Government has been doing.
I'm so glad we're imprisoning the worst of the worst. Remember, even if we have no evidence to prosecute these men, it's morally acceptable to hold them until we see fit to let them go. Because that's how America's justice system works!
08-04-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
The wounded dignity of a nation after 9/11 authorized the vindictive brazenness of a multi-tiered system of justice that Obama now seeks to normalize. The shame of our own shamelessness lies on us like a satanic curse, and underscores the resounding success of terrorist tactics. Not that the terrorists defeated us, but that the American people have willingly and cravenly discarded their own liberty, irreversibly strengthening the hand of our own government against us in pursuit of an illusory security.
08-04-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Fortunately for ourselves and our posterity, our judges seem to have temporarily rediscovered their spines.
08-04-2009
LnGrrrR
Re: More detainees released
I'm surprised no board conservatives have commented on this.
08-04-2009
DarrinS
Re: More detainees released
Whew! What a relief. Now I can sleep at night.
08-04-2009
fyatuk
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
The wounded dignity of a nation after 9/11 authorized the vindictive brazenness of a multi-tiered system of justice that Obama now seeks to normalize.
That's BS. Obama is just trying to do enough to put on a show. He's still planning on keeping a bunch of people locked up without trial or tribunal on flimsy (if any) evidence.
It's a disgrace to American ideals, but don't think that Obama is really working to correct it.
08-04-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyatuk
That's BS. Obama is just trying to do enough to put on a show. He's still planning on keeping a bunch of people locked up without trial or tribunal on flimsy (if any) evidence.
It's a disgrace to American ideals, but don't think that Obama is really working to correct it.
We agree. Maybe the word normalize threw you off. It means to make the norm, i.e., to continue or make the custom.
08-04-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Whew! What a relief. Now I can sleep at night.
God you're so trite. It's a miracle your head doesn't float away like a balloon.
08-04-2009
fyatuk
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
We agree. Maybe the word normalize threw you off. It means to make the norm, i.e., to continue or make the custom.
I viewed the the use of "normalize" to mean to move towards the norm, but you used it to express the norm changing to match it. Usually, "normalize" is used to expressed movement by the subject towards what is considered the norm.
I'm especially annoyed about the prospects under Obama's plans to indefinitely incarcerate people found not guilty (if another country is unwilling to accept them).
08-04-2009
Viva Las Espuelas
Re: More detainees released
eh. who care's about this. if our government don't care about where or what happens to these people then why should i? i just hope they believe they are doing the right thing. that's all i can say.
08-04-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas
eh. who care's about this. if our government don't care about where or what happens to these people then why should i? i just hope they believe they are doing the right thing. that's all i can say.
Uncompromisingly low standards. Could the bar possibly be set any lower?
08-04-2009
Viva Las Espuelas
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Uncompromisingly low standards. Could the bar possibly be set any lower?
i'm watching the bar. the government is setting it. i'm not seeing how my standards are being compromised. did i somehow miss the voting day for this?
08-04-2009
hater
Re: More detainees released
good for them
08-04-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas
i'm watching the bar. the government is setting it. i'm not seeing how my standards are being compromised. did i somehow miss the voting day for this?
Not at all. I don't think I suggested your standards, low as they are, were being violated. Carry on.
08-04-2009
Viva Las Espuelas
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Not at all. I don't think I suggested your standards, low as they are, were being violated. Carry on.
The wounded dignity of a nation after 9/11 authorized the vindictive brazenness of a multi-tiered system of justice that Obama now seeks to normalize. The shame of our own shamelessness lies on us like a satanic curse, and underscores the resounding success of terrorist tactics. Not that the terrorists defeated us, but that the American people have willingly and cravenly discarded their own liberty, irreversibly strengthening the hand of our own government against us in pursuit of an illusory security.
Amazing what can be done with a few boxcutters...
08-04-2009
Nbadan
Re: More detainees released
People do shameful things when their scared...we sanctioned international kidnapping, torture, rape, and yes, even murder so we could all sleep better knowing that our government was doing everthing in its power and more to protect us....
08-04-2009
Nbadan
Re: More detainees released
...but these guys making these decisions never fought in a war, they've never placed their lives on the line for a cause or flag...we were the good guys, that's what Marines and all the other service personnel who have fought for us stand up for....we don't torture...we save people from being tortured...we took that dignity away from every person who has died so far....
08-04-2009
clambake
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
...but these guys making these decisions never fought in a war, they've never placed their lives on the line for a cause or flag...we were the good guys, that's what Marines and all the other service personnel who have fought for us stand up for....we don't torture...we save people from being tortured...we took that dignity away from every person who has died so far....
yep, the shine came off of this pig.
08-04-2009
Clandestino
Re: More detainees released
yeah, they were just on the battlefield cleaning it up. they were trying to kill our soldiers
08-04-2009
clambake
Re: More detainees released
everywhere we went became a battlefield. you must of been one of those non-combat soldier tough guys.
08-04-2009
Rogue
Re: More detainees released
It costs mass money to keep them in prisons, that's the primary reason why those detainees are released in an unprecedented amount but not because we expect them to become moral citizens that can do something good for america. I heard it from JohnJeff show earlier in the morning that a 21-yr-old guy received a 1 year PROBATION for intimidating to take the life of president Obama. I mean a one-yr probation is too slim for a crime aimed at someone's life, even if Obama wasn't the sexing president of United States. The truth is the government need to scrimp on the prisons to save the money for paying the Obamacare bills and the salaries of police.
08-04-2009
hope4dopes
Re: More detainees released
Wow it sure does pay to have friends in high places doesn't it. Hey does anyone know how much money Eric Holder's firm made representing terrorists.I mean you know.....just ballpark.
I'm so glad we're imprisoning the worst of the worst. Remember, even if we have no evidence to prosecute these men, it's morally acceptable to hold them until we see fit to let them go. Because that's how America's justice system works!
our system isn't perfect, we are a work in progress, but I envision a day when we can just toast these assholes right on the battlefield and be done with it.
08-05-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas
i'm watching the bar. the government is setting it. i'm not seeing how my standards are being compromised. did i somehow miss the voting day for this?
Of the 33 men who have received hearings in ordinary courts, under ordinary judicial standards, judges have found no credible legal basis for detaining 28 of them. They have been detained for up to eight years and interrogated, without any good reason. Setting them free is the right thing to do. Procedural fairness may seem quaint to you, but once others envied and looked up to us for it, and we were justifiably proud of it. No more.
Using torture to get confessions and other evidence for prosecution; using secret hearsay evidence against detainees with no cross examination allowed; binding over prisoners (Maher Arar) to third countries known to torture political prisoners; allowing agents of foreign countries to interrogate prisoners under our control (the Uighurs); using the lot of these in mosaic form to create an impression of guilt; and many other outrageous and morally bankrupt prerogatives -- have dented the credibility of the jailer. The contemptuous scorn our conduct pours upon the decent opinion of humanity, will return to us. Our reputation as good guys may not.
For you that's no big deal that we continue to detain men we know now to be no threat to us, and probably never were, except in our own minds. That we are beginning to allow our own government to, detain us at will and violate our privacy at whim, like Great Britain, only underscores your moral vacuity and your historical tunnel vision, VLE.
Becoming like Great Britain in terms of privacy, civil liberties and government secrecy is a bad idea.
The whole idea of multi-tiered justice is un-American. If they are really terrorists, bring evidence in court and convict them. American anti-terror laws grant wide amplitude for support of terrorism prosecutions and the like. It's been done plenty of times successfully.
Even by GWB. Even he didn't get everything wrong. All this extracurricular, kangaroo court stuff is bush league and an embarrassment. It brought dishonor on us. It still does. If anyone else was doing it we'd call them show trials and tinhorn tyrants.
Obama had a chance to put an end to this insane foolishness, but he has not. He promised to. He gets an F on this one so far.
08-05-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurminator
Amazing what can be done with a few boxcutters...
We're basically cringing cowards who prize safety over liberty and traditional republican government. Osama Bin Laden has exposed our yellow streak.
08-05-2009
Winehole23
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clandestino
yeah, they were just on the battlefield cleaning it up. they were trying to kill our soldiers
the guys we nabbed in Sarajevo were not on any recognizable battlefield, and I think we ended up freeing like, three out of the four guys detained, as having no bearing whatsoever on our war against terror.
The 500 out of 8oo or so prisoners already released from Gitmo without charges of any kind strongly suggests we overincarcerated to begin with there.
08-05-2009
LnGrrrR
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by hope4dopes
our system isn't perfect, we are a work in progress, but I envision a day when we can just toast these assholes right on the battlefield and be done with it.
Assuming they are actually found on a 'battlefield'... we can do that.
However, when you detain someone, you have certain moral and legal obligations.
We allow kills on a battlefield because, by its nature, it is inherently chaotic. You're not going to ask a person shooting you for an ID. However, once the threat of harm/injury is removed, then the immediate need to kill is also removed.
08-05-2009
PEP
Re: More detainees released
Lets hope they are innocent and dont return to the battlefield like these winners.
Doesnt really matter to me, wasnt there an administration back in WWII that imprisoned thousands of their own innocent citizens?
08-05-2009
boutons_deux
Re: More detainees released
"dont return to the battlefield like these winners."
who said they were on the battlefield originally?
And what's illegal, US laws apply in foreign countries?, about local people battling invaders?
08-05-2009
hope4dopes
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Assuming they are actually found on a 'battlefield'... we can do that.
However, when you detain someone, you have certain moral and legal obligations.
We allow kills on a battlefield because, by its nature, it is inherently chaotic. You're not going to ask a person shooting you for an ID. However, once the threat of harm/injury is removed, then the immediate need to kill is also removed.
Hey dude I totally agree I'm sure that a Yemeni heavy metal band on it's way to play a wedding gig took a wrong turn and found themselves in the middle of an afgani battlefield. or some sudanese soccer team through miscommunication got dumped in afghanistan instead of Omaha. I mean we've all been there...I remember I took a wrong turn in Albuquerque once and the next thing I knew I was dodging bullets in Kosovo.
08-05-2009
LnGrrrR
Re: More detainees released
Quote:
Originally Posted by hope4dopes
Hey dude I totally agree I'm sure that a Yemeni heavy metal band on it's way to play a wedding gig took a wrong turn and found themselves in the middle of an afgani battlefield. or some sudanese soccer team through miscommunication got dumped in afghanistan instead of Omaha. I mean we've all been there...I remember I took a wrong turn in Albuquerque once and the next thing I knew I was dodging bullets in Kosovo.
Thanks for being facetious! It really helps prove your point.
Did you READ the original article? The one that stated that the MAJORITY of detainees shouldn't have been imprisoned? That courts found no reason why they should be imprisoned?
08-06-2009
ChumpDumper
Re: More detainees released
He doesn't read anything. It wouldn't jibe with his chosen path of complete ignorance.
08-06-2009
LnGrrrR
Re: More detainees released
Obviously not. God forbid he actually take a moment to read the article than just spout inane rantings.
08-06-2009
boutons_deux
Re: More detainees released
The US has 90% of the lawyers on the planet, even assholes like Woo and Alberto "house lawyer" Gonzo, and they couldn't even get these guys into a fucking military kangaroo court? LMFAO
The Repug shit stain on America continues to grow wider and darker.
