Most Athletic Center of All Time? David Robinson or Dwight Howard

There is a problem with your theory about assists.
In 1967-1968 the average team assist was almost 23 apg.
In 2008-2009 it is just under 21 apg.

Maybe it was more difficult to score an assist, but the higher scoring (122 ppg for the Sixers, 109 for the Bulls) made the assist numbers slighlty better than they are now.

But this is a bit far from the initial subject. I agree Wilt was great then and would be great now whatever his stats would say.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

Wilt wasn't doing what Jerome James was doing on the court athletically either. You provided the explanation for why that happened, and it was simply because alley-oops were not being used during the days Wilt was playing.

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Is that really so difficlut to acknowledge the diference in:
Was doing
Was NOT doing

?

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Yes would. Because saying Jerome James is more athletic than Wilt Chamberlain would be quite stupid.

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Where did you lost your sarcasm detector?

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Originally Posted by kingmalaki

You are basically saying that your C was playing like a SF. I think you are displaying why the poster was calling him soft. I'm assuming that poster preferred to see his centers play like centers.

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It really is no secret that Robinson was born more of a 7' SF or PF than a real center. He never really had a center game, but that doesn't make him soft, it just makes him play out of position his whole career, and achieved all the accomplishments he did.

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Originally Posted by kingmalaki

I'm not really gonna call Robinson soft, because he did show a willingness to bang defensively. He just didn't show that same willingness offensively. I think for a scoring pivot, you can get away without having a post game for a while but once the playoffs go into the late rounds it becomes more necessary (see Dwight Howard last season as an example). When I watched him play, it just seemed like he was more comfy on the perimiter then in the paint. Granted you have seen more Spurs games than me and that doesn't exactly explain him leading the league in foul attempts...although I think some of the attempts had to do with his popularity. I always recall him getting the ref benefit more than Hakeem for example.

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Robinson would get hacked all game long in the playoffs with no calls for him. There is just no way a referee is going to foul out an entire front line game after game in the playoffs, and that is what the opposition figured. Another thing is that Robinson couldn't finish as well with contact as the other great ones. Hakeem and Duncan would get hacked around the basket and still score, but Robinson just couldn't, and that really hampers him during the playoffs, when contact is expected.

His game was to drive to the basket and dunk it, but the lanes close in the playoffs, and teams force you beat them inside. The Spurs didn't really have anyone who could consistently nail down open jumpers to open up the lane, and that allowed teams to double and triple Robinson, daring the other Spurs to beat them.

When your starting PG's biggest achievement in life is nailing down an open 18-foot jumper, and was waived multiple times by the Rockets as a 3rd string PG, you know you never had really good point guards.

BTW, Robinson got a lot less calls than he should have gotten, check any playoff games, he would be hacked multiple times on the same play, and there would be no calls.

Man, people are so short sighted

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Is that really so difficlut to acknowledge the diference in:
Was doing
Was NOT doing

?

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So you are using an aspect of the game that Wilt was not doing, and Jerome James was doing as an argument to say that Wilt was not as athletic as Robinson?

Wilt wasn't shooting 3 pters back in the day either because there was no 3-pt line in the NBA, doesn't mean anything with regards to athletic ability.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Where did you lost your sarcasm detector?

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I dropped it in the toilet.

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Originally Posted by Spurstrodamus

HA... HAHAHA.... HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA




I can see him averaging maybe 5 assists at MOST. You're saying he's a better passer than Garnett, Duncan and Shaq? Not only them, but players like LeBron James? LOL! Let's be real... he got his great stats based on being bigger than everybody else and having some guard skills. There are so many big men today that would provide resistance to him, that are just as big and just as athletic.

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5 assists only? I could see Wilt gettting 7-8 assists. He led the league in assists in one particular year. It was difficult to get assists in that era because of the rules and the shooting percentage of the players back then. Realistically, a triple double once every 4 games for Wilt is very possible.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

So you are using an aspect of the game that Wilt was not doing, and Jerome James was doing as an argument to say that Wilt was not as athletic as Robinson?

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Good, now tell me something about me, because I don't know nothing about me realy, and you are so good at assuming what I meant to say. So I will be waiting. Tell me what do I like to eat?
You probably knows that from the post I have made about the things Wilt was doing and not doing on the court huh?

Shit Usain Bolt is a great athlete but would he be able to do such wonderfull stuff on the court as he is doing on the athletics arena?
He must have been because he is so athletic.

People are so short sighted -> You assume that I was talking that Wilt was a shitty player just because I said he was not doing the things DRob was doing on the court. And that one was from the observation.
Nice

Good to know that Wilt was running fast and jumping high but it not translate to the basketball court. At least not that greatly as some people think.

there are milions og great athletes but when they step to the basketball court thay can't use that adventages. [I'm not saying that Wilt had no skills, that's btw.]


Next thing - Wilt could do all the stuff you say on backyard on practice and stuff (still you can't prove it). But he was not doing it during games. And I really do not care if it was prohibited or not. he was NOT doing it during games.

That's why I mentioned about Wilts potential doing athletic stuff on the court and Daves full explored abilieties (becasue in 90s you could allow your athletics flow :) )

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Wilt wasn't shooting 3 pters back in the day either because there was no 3-pt line in the NBA, doesn't mean anything with regards to athletic ability.

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Out of nowhere :rolleyes

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I dropped it in the toilet.

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Go look for it



Ps. Wlt is the best indyvidual player that ever played this game
Wilt was far the most dominant force in the NBA (Mikan, Jordan come close)
Wilt was freak as it comes to the athletic adventage he had over his opponents. And in 90s or 00s he would still be the most dominant in NBA when you put him in realia of this NBA.

I don't know then what kind of points you want to argue me with?

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Originally Posted by Chieflion

5 assists only? I could see Wilt gettting 7-8 assists. He led the league in assists in one particular year. It was difficult to get assists in that era because of the rules and the shooting percentage of the players back then. Realistically, a triple double once every 4 games for Wilt is very possible.

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Wilt could get 7-8 assist, but I think he would not (just like any superstar in his prime Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, Garnett...).

I don't think it's out of the realm that Wilt would average 8-10 assists in today's game. When you've got a player as dominant as Wilt, you run the ball through him as much as you possibly can, even more than the Spurs run 4-down. Surround him with guys who can hit spot-up jumpers, as well as someone like Fabricio Oberto who can make a cut off the double team and score a lot of back-door layups, and watch his assist numbers skyrocket.

While it is not entirely impossible that Wilt could average 8 to 10 assists in today’s game, it is not very likely.

People remember the year Wilt led the league in assists, but forgot that he averaged less than 5 assists a game 10 out of his 14 years in the league, and while averaging 5+ assists in any season in the NBA for a center is phenomenal, it doesn’t go near 8 to 10 assists per game.

On top of that, it wasn’t tougher for the league to get assists back in the day. The league was seeing 9.1 to 11.5 assists a game for the league leaders back during Wilt’s days, and Chris Paul averaged 11 assists per game last year. The league was also averaging around 20.95 to 25.2 assists per team per game back in Wilt’s game, but 21 assists last year.

Also, when you look at Wilt’s assist leading year. He led the league in assists totals, not average. Oscar Robertson led the league in assists average at 9.7 apg (vs. 8.6 for Wilt), but played less games due to injuries. Again, having 8.6 assists per game was absolutely incredible for a center, but that is not something that he was doing in regularity, he did in once, when his scoring average dropped off steeply from his earlier years.

It is highly unlikely he could average 30ppg and 8 apg in one season nowadays, when the overall scoring was much lower than the 60’s, when he couldn’t pull it off during his days.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

While it is not entirely impossible that Wilt could average 8 to 10 assists in today’s game, it is not very likely.

People remember the year Wilt led the league in assists, but forgot that he averaged less than 5 assists a game 10 out of his 14 years in the league, and while averaging 5+ assists in any season in the NBA for a center is phenomenal, it doesn’t go near 8 to 10 assists per game.

On top of that, it wasn’t tougher for the league to get assists back in the day. The league was seeing 9.1 to 11.5 assists a game for the league leaders back during Wilt’s days, and Chris Paul averaged 11 assists per game last year. The league was also averaging around 20.95 to 25.2 assists per team per game back in Wilt’s game, but 21 assists last year.

Also, when you look at Wilt’s assist leading year. He led the league in assists totals, not average. Oscar Robertson led the league in assists average at 9.7 apg (vs. 8.6 for Wilt), but played less games due to injuries. Again, having 8.6 assists per game was absolutely incredible for a center, but that is not something that he was doing in regularity, he did in once, when his scoring average dropped off steeply from his earlier years.

It is highly unlikely he could average 30ppg and 8 apg in one season nowadays, when the overall scoring was much lower than the 60’s, when he couldn’t pull it off during his days.

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Actually, it's easier to get assists these days. There's a story out there where a guy talks about how he was told that "so and so" was going to have double digit. One night he actually awarded Nick Van Exel 23 assists.

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-conf...ba-scorekeeper

http://deadspin.com/5336974/how-an-n...oked-the-books


Back in the day, it is accepted that any stats that were awarded were earned. Also, Wilt was told he needed to score, not pass in Philly. He mentions it in an interview.

A coach pointed out that his team lost more when he scored tons of points, therefore he was asked to pass the ball more. He did and eventually lead the league in assists. Wilt low assists weren't due to his lack of ability to pass the ball, but rather, the gameplan of his coach.

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As Alex remembers it now, Olajuwon had a double-double with nine blocks at some point during the fourth quarter. "Someone in management came to me and said, basically, Thou shalt give Hakeem Olajuwon a triple-double. Come hell or high water, he's getting a triple-double. I'm like, uh, OK." The Grizzlies had small monitors on which they kept a running box score. Anyone could see if someone was closing in on a milestone. "If a guy is in vicinity of a record, people are tracking those things. I know those things," Alex says. "If a guy has an eight-game streak of getting 10 rebounds, I'll know that. Am I gonna help that? Probably." The Rockets game, though, "was the one time someone said, 'You'll do this.' And I did." (For the record, Alex is reasonably certain that the 10th block was legitimate. "If he got a bullshit block," he says, "it probably happened before the 10th one.")

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Taken from this story.

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-conf...ba-scorekeeper

I have no doubt that Wilt had the ability to pass the ball, you don't average 8.6 assists one season without being able to pass the ball. And yes, him getting or not getting assists were basedon game plan, much like how nobody would ever average 10 assists a game playing under the Spurs system.

But the point is, even though Wilt was asked to pass the ball at a faster pace system, he was still able to get "only 8.6 assists", while scoring around 24 ppg. To suggest that he could score 30ppg and get 8 to 10 assists per game in today's slower paced game is really stretching it.

As for cooking the books with regards of stat keeping, I would imagine if that did happen today, it would have been even more rampant back in the day with the lack of auditing and hiring enough people to double and triple check everything.

There is only a limited number of possessions a player can have in a game. When Wilt was taking more shots, he was probably averaging less assists. So you can't combine his best season for assists with his best season for points.
http://www.basketballreference.com/p...lkid=CHAMBWI01

Teams also averaged more possessions per game in the 60's, which would contribute to inflate a little some stats.

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Originally Posted by whottt

David got his ass beat every year of the playoffs because he didn't have anyone else that could take over a game. Period.

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Your superstar is supposed to be the one taking over the game.....

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Originally Posted by ambchang

It really is no secret that Robinson was born more of a 7' SF or PF than a real center. He never really had a center game, but that doesn't make him soft, it just makes him play out of position his whole career, and achieved all the accomplishments he did.

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I don't think he is soft. Looking at the posters post, I think he said he was soft because he didn't have much of a post game. If you prefer your C to play like a C then I can see why you would say that.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

People are so short sighted -> You assume that I was talking that Wilt was a shitty player just because I said he was not doing the things DRob was doing on the court. And that one was from the observation.
Nice

Good to know that Wilt was running fast and jumping high but it not translate to the basketball court. At least not that greatly as some people think.

there are milions og great athletes but when they step to the basketball court thay can't use that adventages. [I'm not saying that Wilt had no skills, that's btw.]


Next thing - Wilt could do all the stuff you say on backyard on practice and stuff (still you can't prove it). But he was not doing it during games. And I really do not care if it was prohibited or not. he was NOT doing it during games.

That's why I mentioned about Wilts potential doing athletic stuff on the court and Daves full explored abilieties (becasue in 90s you could allow your athletics flow :) )

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This is not the same argument you initially made. You talked about what either Robinson or Wilt "was capable of doing." Not what they actually did. And, when you initially argued that, you were questioning Wilt's athleticism.

What you contend now is not the same thing. You aren't questioning Wilt's athleticism now. You question the application of his athleticism to the basketball court.

In your initial comments, you question do question Wilt's athleticism. In these arguments, you acknowledge his athleticism but question how they translated on the basketball court and whether they helped make him a better basketball player.

And, you continue to talk about not seeing Wilt do things on the court. Many of the youtube videos Phila has posted show these things. It seems you just don't want to acknowledge them because your original sentiments regarding Wilt's athleticism were inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

As for cooking the books with regards of stat keeping, I would imagine if that did happen today, it would have been even more rampant back in the day with the lack of auditing and hiring enough people to double and triple check everything.

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Actually, the story teller suggest it was more rampant now because of the immediacy of the stats. There is less oversight because the stats have to get out faster. Look at an ESPN Game Cast someday to get what I'm saying.

Also, ESPN has played a huge role. Notice how many times the story teller mentions getting the Grizz on SportsCenter or getting national spotlight by doctoring the books a bit to make the game seem more appealing.

The story teller proved that there is actually little to no oversight on the actual stats. I mean, NICK VAN EXEL HAD 23 ASSISTS!!! :rollin

All the hype and national attention just didn't exist during the 60s and therefore, provided little incentive to "make the game more appealing".

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Good, now tell me something about me, because I don't know nothing about me realy, and you are so good at assuming what I meant to say. So I will be waiting. Tell me what do I like to eat?
You probably knows that from the post I have made about the things Wilt was doing and not doing on the court huh?

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You explicitly said Wilt wasn’t catching and flushing alleyoops during a discussion about their respective athleticism.

You pulled out an example that Wilt didn’t do strictly because of the fact that alleyoops don’t happen in games during Wilt’s time as some sort of argument that Wilt is not as athletic as Robinson.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Shit Usain Bolt is a great athlete but would he be able to do such wonderfull stuff on the court as he is doing on the athletics arena?
He must have been because he is so athletic.

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I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

People are so short sighted -> You assume that I was talking that Wilt was a shitty player just because I said he was not doing the things DRob was doing on the court. And that one was from the observation .
Nice

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I am not sure how this would relate to being short-sighted. Nobody ever said you are minimizing Wilt’s accomplishments on the court when you said he didn’t do some of the things Robinson did (like flushing down an alleyoop in authority), people read it as your proof to say that Wilt is not as athletic as Robinson because he did not do something when such a thing didn’t exist back in the day.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Good to know that Wilt was running fast and jumping high but it not translate to the basketball court. At least not that greatly as some people think.

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How do you figure? How do you think the man grabbed 55 rebounds in one game and scored 100 points in one game? How do you figure he block those shots at the apex of their trajectory?

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

there are milions og great athletes but when they step to the basketball court thay can't use that adventages. [I'm not saying that Wilt had no skills, that's btw.]


Next thing - Wilt could do all the stuff you say on backyard on practice and stuff (still you can't prove it). But he was not doing it during games. And I really do not care if it was prohibited or not. he was NOT doing it during games.

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So it’s Wilt fault for not converting alleyoops when they don’t exist in his time?

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

That's why I mentioned about Wilts potential doing athletic stuff on the court and Daves full explored abilieties (becasue in 90s you could allow your athletics flow :) )

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That doesn’t speak to how athletic Wilt was or wasn’t, more about him being more restricted.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Out of nowhere :rolleyes

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Absolutely not, it flows from the same and only logic you have been using, and that is you don’t care whether Wilt was restricted in his options because he wasn’t accomplishing certain feats on the court. You don’t care there wasn’t any 3-pt lines back in the day, just that Wilt didn’t shoot any, just as you would say that Shaq was doing perimeter stuff that Jerry West couldn’t do, because Shaq actually made 1 3 pter, and West made none in his career, nevermind that there were no 3pt shots in West’s time.

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Go look for it

Ps. Wlt is the best indyvidual player that ever played this game
Wilt was far the most dominant force in the NBA (Mikan, Jordan come close)
Wilt was freak as it comes to the athletic adventage he had over his opponents. And in 90s or 00s he would still be the most dominant in NBA when you put him in realia of this NBA.

I don't know then what kind of points you want to argue me with?

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Mostly this:

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

As for achievements I ment the things Dave was capable of doing on the court.
He was capable of doing much more then Wilt.
So you was talking about potential that Wilt had and would heve been superior to Daves in the same 90s era

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You didn’t say Dave did much more, you said capable. You later change your stance Wilt didn’t do it, and I don’t care that his era didn’t allow for it.

You have shifting arguments that have no central point. What are you arguing? That Wilt can’t do what David do, and Wilt didn’t demonstrate what David did?

And if it’s the later, what significance does that have to do with their respective athleticism?

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Originally Posted by Nathan Explosion

Actually, the story teller suggest it was more rampant now because of the immediacy of the stats. There is less oversight because the stats have to get out faster. Look at an ESPN Game Cast someday to get what I'm saying.

Also, ESPN has played a huge role. Notice how many times the story teller mentions getting the Grizz on SportsCenter or getting national spotlight by doctoring the books a bit to make the game seem more appealing.

The story teller proved that there is actually little to no oversight on the actual stats. I mean, NICK VAN EXEL HAD 23 ASSISTS!!! :rollin

All the hype and national attention just didn't exist during the 60s and therefore, provided little incentive to "make the game more appealing".

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I am not sure about this, just the motivation and consequences of it.

Stats were just as glorified back in the day as it is now, and it wouldn't shock me to see people putting in an extra assist here and extra rebound there to push their star players.

Vs. today, teams actually do review their stats. I remember Hakeem's first quadruple double were stripped away after discovering that one of his assists were incorrectly awarded. He had a real one a couple of weeks later.

I would like to see NVE's game, he was at least a decent passer once in a while.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

I am not sure about this, just the motivation and consequences of it.

Stats were just as glorified back in the day as it is now, and it wouldn't shock me to see people putting in an extra assist here and extra rebound there to push their star players.

Vs. today, teams actually do review their stats. I remember Hakeem's first quadruple double were stripped away after discovering that one of his assists were incorrectly awarded. He had a real one a couple of weeks later.

I would like to see NVE's game, he was at least a decent passer once in a while.

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Did you read the actual story? Van Exel didn't come close to 23 assists. One example was NVE passes to the wing, the guy holds the ball for a few seconds, pump fakes, 2 dribbles and the pull up. Swish. Van Exel assisted.

He gave numerous examples of how the stats were being doctored. And the reasons he gave just didn't exist back in the 60s. Getting national attention didn't really matter because there was no Sportscenter or nationally televised games 4 times a weeks or more sometimes.

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Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Your superstar is supposed to be the one taking over the game.....

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Jordan had Pippen, Wilt had Westand Baylor,, etc... It takes more than one superstar to dominate and win championships.. No matter how hard Robinson played and dominated, it was never enough until Duncan came around!

What about Hakeem's first championship in Houston?