Noc would be a good pick up for the Spurs. His contract is "Spur friendly" because it essentially expires with Duncan. His last year is a team option.
Although I am a little worried that he has lost a big step.
Printable View
Noc would be a good pick up for the Spurs. His contract is "Spur friendly" because it essentially expires with Duncan. His last year is a team option.
Although I am a little worried that he has lost a big step.
Wouldn't happen. Kings elected Nocioni being the valuable piece in return for Salmons and Brad Miller, when dozen of teams were calling offering packages for both players.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
On another note Nocioni's contract is no where near a burden for the Kings as his salary decreases every year from a modest 7.5 million in 09/2010.
Not so sure. The Kings are not going to win anything, they have young talent they need to develop in Noc's position (Greene, Casspi) and other young guys (Jason Thompson, Spencer Hawes, Tyreke Evans).
He is not a part of their future and if they can trade him for expiring contracts to open up playing time, they will also save 7M next year and become major players in 2010 FA with only 33M on the books and a bunch of young players.
The only way they would trade him for expiring contracts is if he made about 5-7 million dollars more than he makes. 6.8 million for 2010/2011 is a bargain for the Kings.
Think logically if they were to indeed trade Nocioni it would be for young equal talent and draft picks. Not expirings.
It seems like us Spurs fans tend to always try to justify a team unloading a hot commodity for Bonner/Finley ( expirings).
Yes it worked for R Jefferson but he made about 8 million dollars more than Nocioni and the Bucks were in more of a financial problem than the Kings are.
7.5 million for 09/2010...6.8 million for 2010/2011 6.65 million for 2011/2012....Team option for 2012/2013 is a bargain
He will make the same salary as Beno. If anything they will try to unload Beno if they had problems financially but they are at 52 million for next year.
Nocioni for Finley/ Bonner is ridiculous.
I'm willing to bet they won't sign a better player for 6.8 million a year next year. If anything they will only have the option to overpay David Lee/ Nate Robinson type of players in free agency as the big names will just laugh about the idea of going to Sacramento.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
You are severely overrating Nocioni's value to the Kings imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
1) Are the Kings going to make the playoffs this year?
2) If not, do you develop the wealth of young talent on the team, or play vets and scratch to win 20 games?
3) Are the Kings going to make the playoffs in the near future and will Nocioni play a role in that?
4) When there are marquee FA's is the difference between 40M and 33M a huge difference for a franchise looking to rebuild?
It is not a bargain if he is getting in the way of developing young players during rebuilding and if you cannot realize the benefits by making the playoffs.
Money talks and so does young talent. They might not sign a better player for 6.8M, but they could certainly use that money to sign someone younger and better for the future to help build around.
Why would a young player, looking for a big payday, laugh at going to Sacramento with other young talent? They could very well go the route of the Pistons and sign a few young and talented players for that money.
If you are asking me if I would rather have Charlie Villanueva or 6.8M or Nocioni it is a no brainer.
No you are underrating the value of Nocioni's talent compared to his salary.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Because of that if you believe the best offer the Kings would get for Nocioni is expirings you are as biased as they come.
He does not make enough money for the Kings to basically consider a salary dump when he was their best player last year. If they were to put him on the market they would recieve a lot better offers than " expirings".
The only way I can see them unloading him for expirings is if Tyreke Evans shows hes worth a shit. (UNLIKE your great prospect Donte Green).
And Beno would be included for that massive salary dump of 13-14 million.
1. Irrelevent with what I'm saying about Nocioni's value. ( Production compared to his contract = bargain for the Kings) which would be a bargain for other teams as well, which means it would take more than simply expirings for a straight up trade for Nocioni to work. If kings think logically that is.
2. There's a reason why Donte Green dropped so low in the 2008 draft and it was evident last year. The best young talent they have that has starter potential is Spencer Hawes first and foremost then Jason Thompson. Nocioni doesn't stunt their development since he plays small forward. Green is still years away. Casspi didn't show great signs in SL. At best he may be worthy of getting trash minutes.
3. No and again that's irrelevent with what I'm saying about Nocioni's value.
4. Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Amare ect. won't go to Sacramento even if they had 50 million to spend. You can book that. If kings are going all in for next summer they will more than likely give David Lee 70 million. Then turn around and give Nate Robinson another 50 million. Which won't change their lottery situation.
I think raja is overrated as well. but i would trade finley for him. Finley+ bonner and/or mason i would not.
Please explain. It would be different if I did not present a case and just made something up. Funny someone who seems to love Argies is calling me biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
Where is this rule written at? Bonner only makes 3M and he is one of the best 3 point shooters in the league, yet it is widely believed that the Spurs will try and salary dump him. Is he not a bargain?Quote:
He does not make enough money for the Kings to basically consider a salary dump when he was their best player last year.
Also, you call me biased and yet you say that Nocioni was there best player last year? He played only 29 games for them. Kevin Martin clearly was better, Spencer Hawes was better, Salmons was better during his stint and Francisco Garcia was arguably better. Please.
Where did I say Greene was a a great prospect? I said he was young talent that they value more than Nocioni.Quote:
If they were to put him on the market they would recieve a lot better offers than " expirings". The only way I can see them unloading him for expirings is if Tyreke Evans shows like hes worth a shit. (UNLIKE your great prospect Donte Green). And Beno would be included for that massive salary dump of 13-14 million.
Not irrelevant. You just do not like the reasoning. See the Bonner comparison for value vs salary dump.Quote:
1. Irrelevent with what I'm saying about Nocioni's value. ( Production compared to his contract = bargain for the Kings) which would be a bargain for other teams as well, which means it would take more than simply expirings for a straight up trade for Nocioni to work. If kings think logically that is.
So Blair, Arenas, Ginobili must all suck because they dropped so low in the draft. Once again, I never said that Greene was their best young talent, you just made that up. FACT is that even with the great Nocioni, the Kings won a mighty 17 games last year and finished last in the West. It makes no sense to hold on to someone, at any value, at his age with the length of his contract if you have young players you need to see and when you have no chance at winning.Quote:
2. There's a reason why Donte Green dropped so low in the 2008 draft and it was evident last year. The best young talent they have that has starter potential is Spencer Hawes first and foremost then Jason Thompson. Nocioni doesn't stunt their development. Green is still years away. Casspi didn't show great signs in SL. At best he may be worthy of getting trash minutes.
But it is relevant with regards to reality.Quote:
3. No and again that's irrelevent with what I'm saying about Nocioni's value.
That makes no sense and that is not what I said. They might be able to land a big time player and do you know Lebron, Wade and Bosh? Sometimes players take money. But they could do what the Pistons did and get a few young players with their money and build for the future.Quote:
4. Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, Amare ect. won't go to Sacramento even if they had 50 million to spend. You can book that. If kings are going all in for next summer they will more than likely give David Lee 70 million. Which won't change their lottery situation.
I am sure the fans want to build for the future. Get young talent, make some exciting signings and work towards something. Don't hang onto the best value in the world evidently when it wins you 17 games.
It is the same reason the Kings traded Ron Artest. Artest is a much better player than Nocioni and they traded him because they were going no where with him. They needed to build for the future. Artest was making almost exactly what Nocioni makes and produces much, much more.
If Greene sucks so bad like you seem to be implying, all the Kings got for Artest was Greene and Bobby Jackson + 1st rounder. That is not exactly a lot of talent and Artest >>>>>>>>Nocioni. Yet you expect Nocioni to command more than that?
Also, I have never seen anything that the Kings were demanding Nocioni in the Bulls trade. It was a salary dump and the Bulls wanted to get rid of Nocioni.
However, I digress. It is all speculation and just opinion. I think Nocioni would fit well.
lolol...so I love Argies because I think Nocioni's contract is a good valued contract for the Kings? wow your an idiotQuote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
lolol Bonner is in his contract year. He will be off the books next year therefore your explanation on Spurs trying to salary dump him makes absolutely no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Kevin Martin was hurt. I meant at the end of the year after Salmons was there and when Kevin Martin was hurt. Nocioni was there best all around player.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
So they value a player who warmed the bench, more than a player they traded John Salmons and Brad Miller for????? after dozens of teams were calling sending multiple proposals for both players?? WOWQuote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
lol wow AgainQuote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
I never said Nocioni was King Nocioni nor do I have a Witness this Nocioni T-shirt. I simply stated 6.8 million for a player of Nocioni's caliber is a bargain for whichever team takes on his salary. A simple salary dump for the kings because 6.8 million makes no sense for a player of Nocioni's caliber. If anything it's Beno's contract that they will try to get expirings for.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
But it is relevant with regards to reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
If you think giving Ben Gordon and Charlie V 90 million dollars will make the Pistons championship contenders your on crack.
Smart Gm's don't overpay for non-all-stars. Maybe we think differently. But here's to hoping GM Geoff Petrie goes with your way of thinking and trades Nocioni for Bonner and Finley only to free up 7 more million dollars to give David Lee 70 million over 5 years, Nate Robinson 50 million over 5 years and Travis Outlaw 40 million over 5 years. Yeah thats the way to build a contender. Right on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Artest implied that he would not resign in Sacramento after 09'. Since he would be a free agent, they wanted to get something back in return before he would leave to another team during free agency. Kings didn't want to be stuck with nothing to show for Artest. Totally different scenario.
The Spurs will try and dump Bonner to save money THIS YEAR. Luxury tax.
Yes, I am saying they value a guy they traded Artest for more than Nocioni.
Once again, you make things up. Where did I say the Pistons will win a title? I said I would rather have Charlie V and Ben Gordon than Nocioni. So just because the Kings have money they will give 70M to Lee and I am the idiot? Teams had money this year and they did not do that, why would the Kings?
What did they get? They got nothing but a salary dump according to you. There are plenty of other options as well, such as a sign and trade to get value for a player.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
That makes absolutely no sense. Spurs are past the Luxury tax even if they did trade Bonner to a team for a 2nd rounder as you are implying. If anything Bonner will be packaged with Mason or Finley at the deadline to fill in a need at the time. Salary dump? wow I don't even know why I decided to debate with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
I'm making fun of you for stating Kings should sign young players to long term deals like the Pistons as you stated above. Something I don't agree with.
I'm only being realistic, the only players Kings will be in the market for are players like Outlaw, Lee, Robinson.
Wade, bosh, Bron, Amare aren't going to a lottery team. You can book that.
Don't worry you are not debating, you are just making random shit up. Yes, the Spurs will be past the luxury tax, but it will soften the blow. I never said that would move them below the tax, but you seem to argue from a point of ignorance which is why you cannot grasp this.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
I said it is believed the Spurs will try and move these guys at the deadline in a salary dump to soften the luxury tax blow. If they can get a player instead, they might do that.
Not sure, I don't have a crystal ball like you.
Why would they not sign young and talented players to reasonable contracts if they have cap space and other young players to build around?Quote:
I'm making fun of you for stating Kings should sign young players to long term deals like the Pistons as you stated above. Something I don't agree with.
I'm only being realistic, the only players Kings will be in the market for are players like Outlaw, Lee, Robinson.
Wade, bosh, Bron, Amare aren't going to a lottery team. You can book that.
You seem to know how the market will shape up, because your logic is flawless.
Lee is the only guy the Kings could get, so they will give him 70M dollars. Makes perfect sense, because Lee turned down at least 2 of those offers this season.
Artests value was higher than Nocioni's BEFORE Artest told the media he wasn't going to return to sacramento.
If you know anything about the way the business side of things work you would know after Artests statement his value went down because then teams know the Kings need to get rid of him. Therefore teams offer less and less because they know they have to get rid of him since he is leaving anyway. That is apparent with the best offer they recieved for Artest which was Bobby Jackson plus a first rounder.
So Artest's value plummeted to the point where no team wanted him and all Sacto got was a salary dump? Yes, him saying he wanted to be traded made him less attractive than Nocioni. (sarcasm)
Does it help when players talk? No. But when excellent players are on the market, there will be suitors.
Plenty of teams were offering talent, but the Kings were interested in salary cap relief and "young talent". They loved Greene.
Have you ever heard of a sign and trade? Kings could have accepted a package with more "talent" now, but they did not. They could have done a S&T but they did not.
I'm pretty sure it's apparent Holt and co. are going all in this year and next. Anyone on here will disagree with what you just said. Really a salary dump halfway during the season. WOWQuote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
No i meant players of Lee's caliber. NBA starters but not all-stars. Outlaw Robinson/ Lee come to mind first. And yes desperate teams will overpay for players of their caliber next year once Bron, Wade, Bosh, Amare, Joe Johnson are off the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
You obviously don't know how the business side of things work in the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
Nocioni is a good player and his contract is reasonable, but he does not make sense for the Kings.
So what if he is good "value" in general? What does he do for the Kings and would they be better served keeping him and not seeing what they have in their current young players, or playing the young guys and give themselves the best shot at improving their team this next summer?
Will they try and get the best deal? Yes, but other teams know he does not fit and if they got a package of expiring contracts + draft pick it should be enough. Teams will not give up a ton of talent for him, because it defeats the purpose of getting him to help a contender. They will say to the Kings "fine, you keep his great value and win 17 games and miss out on developing your young players and in FA".
He is a decent value, not great by the way. He has career averages of 12 PTS, 5 REB, 1.3 AST and 1.65 TO's. For 7M, that is not great.
You can keep quoting yourself and saying random throw away lines such as "I cannot believe I am debating you" or "You obviously do not know the business side" but it does not make you right.
Plenty of teams try and lower their salary burden during the year, especially teams that don't normally pay LT. If the Spurs are doing well and they are happy with their team, most people on ST know that dumping Bonner makes sense to save some money. If they can use him to improve where they see fit, then the will. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
Why would the Kings be desperate? Were teams desperate when Ariza/Artest/Hedo were snatched up? I did not see Lee getting a contract like you are talking about.
Well the thing is, I have proof. You just make shit up like "Nocioni was their best player" and "the Kings made Nocioni the center of the trade"...Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
Neither of which are true. Fact is, the Kings had offers with "more talent" than the Rockets offer, but they wanted salary relief and Greene.
If they could have gotten a really good player, they might have considered it, but the did not get enough talent in an offer in order to make them value it over cap-space.
Same would be for Noc.