Matt Bonner was +32 in 17 minutes vs. the Clips.
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Matt Bonner was +32 in 17 minutes vs. the Clips.
:wow:wow:wow
just Matt Bonner being Matt Bonner, most under-appreciated player in the league, the team just functions better when he's in there.
pop apparently knew something that we dont....put bonner in when the clips were killing us on the board and waalaa... +32
LOL @ the +32... If you think that stat is indicative of Bonner's play tonight, then...
http://www.oddpic.com/data/520/you_r...g-it-wrong.jpg
wow, suicide huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
nice
I guess you lose your sense of humor when somebody talks your boy Bonner down, uh? It's true though. Tonight, he just happened to be out there when Manu couldn't miss from outside...Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
Manu was only +9. He had to have done something right, or at least gotten lucky to be on the court when a couple other people were going off in addition to Manu.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
On a related note, as of 12/9, Bonner was leading the team in +/- at +67, and also leading the Net48 minutes +/- at +8.3.
Part of the reason for this is that he leads the team in offensive points per possession when he is on the court. As expected, most Spurs players have a better (i.e. lower) opponent's points per possession when they are on the court.
(all numbers per 82games.com)
Manu was out there when were turning the ball over like there was no tomorrow too. Do you guys actually watch the games or just look at the numbers later on?Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
BTW, have you looked at Bonner's line for the night? 7 points and 2 rebounds and you don't think playing with Blair and Manu had anything to do with his +32?
We were actually laughing about this on the game thread at the end...
oh so it was humor, guess I just don't get it, how was that funny? how did your thought process go from Bonner to that pic?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
elNono has a real hate for Bonner.
I never said it had nothing to do with Manu. I was just saying it couldn't have been completely on Manu, and was probably Manu + some other player(s) getting hot + at least a little of Bonner's own effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
And yes, I admit freely, I only got to watch parts of this game. Never claimed otherwise.
Fairly easily, actually. Suggesting that you could equate Bonners production with his +/- basically means 'You're doing it wrong'. Which is a fairly common Internet meme. Just google it. I'm sorry if you didn't like the picture. I'll post another one with former President Bush next time so you don't make stupid associations...Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
Sometimes I forget I'm dealing with retards like you here...
Then you don't understand how +/- is calculated. He could ride Manu's positive minutes and be sitting on the bench during Manu's negative minutes. Which is what happened tonight. So he can absolutely just add up positives from a singleQuote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
player even though that player ends up with a not so positive night.
I do? News to me....Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
haha. I kid. But sometimes it really seems like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Yes, I know how +/- is calculated, and yes, what you say is possible. It's just not very probable that it was the only reason. Also, you're missing the broader point here. Is Bonner's +32 in a game where he only had 7 and 2 likely a fluke and an anomaly? Absolutely. Is the fact that he leads the Spurs in +/- and Net48 +/- this entire season, after doing it all of last season, a fluke and an anomaly? Statistically highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I have no problem with Matt. It's just that silly people keep on bringing up +/- like it's some sort of indicator of who played well out there, and if you actually watched the game you can see exactly why he got that number and it had very littleQuote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
to do with him (Unlike the last Utah game where it had everything to do with him)
ah, busting out the "retards" already, and a quick bush bash to boot, boy your intellect surely can't be matched. I feel so much shame that I don't know what an internet meme is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
:lol hilariously unsurprising that you are a Bush Hater BTW, true to form.
Would you say his contributions were ultimately positive tonight?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Ime Udoka had a adjusted +/- better than TD, TP and Manu for the entire season last year. Is that an anomaly? Highly likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
You need to use the right stats to measure the right things: +/- is a good stat to measure lineup combos, not single players.
For most people reading your posts it's readily apparent that there's plenty of things you don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
I don't hate Bush, and I don't make the pictures. But if you have a sense of humor somewhere, you can't tell me this isn't funny:Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
http://nowsourcing.com/blog/wp-conte...g_it_wrong.jpg
Absolutely. However, he was nowhere near the best players on the court tonight (TD, Blair,Manu, RJ). And for somebody that didn't see the game, that +32 is as misleading as they come.Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
hmm, is that yet another generic, vague internet retort? it's fun to do that isn't it? call people you don't like retards, idiots, no-nothings, and use terms like most people, obvious, or apparent to support your non-existent pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
:lol
see I have a sense of humor, while I may not find suicide or upside-down phones funny, I do find people like you funny
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I certainly agree that on a single game basis, +/- by itself can be a very misleading stat, and should be taken with a grain (or 10) of salt. However, I think over the course of a longer period of time, it can be a very useful and telling stat, especially when paired with offensive/defensive numbers. For example, Ime's numbers last year show him to be an effective defensive player, probably moreso than most people here give him credit for. The reasons he gets such a bad rap at times is because he didn't turn into Bruce Bowen (unfair standard) and the fact that he completely fell off the map offensively (fair judgment, and ultimately the reason the Spurs moved on).Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Of course, am I saying that Matt Bonner (or Ime Udoka) is more important to this team than TD, RJ, Manu, or Tony? Absolutely not. But I do think the stat sheds light on the idea that Matt is a lot more useful than people give him credit for. Ultimately, though, I can certainly agree to disagree, especially on a stat such as +/- that hasn't been kept long enough in the NBA to create useful historical examples, counter-examples, and analogs.
what site has Udoka as the leading Adj. +/- for the Spurs last year and how do they adjust the +/- stat?
the sites I go to had Bonner at the top followed by Parker.
I'll disagree with you that it's a meaningful stat to analyze single players over a period of time (simply because there's much better stats for that depending on what you want to measure), but other than that I think we're in complete agreement that plus/minus derived from a single game as an indication of a player's contribution can be very misleading. That's why I just can't help myself to call out posts like this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
Because if you actually watched the game today, the team functionality had absolutely nothing to do with Matt Bonner.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
Bonner was the leader, Udoka was second. It's linked on one of the old Bonner threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
No, it's actually not vague at all. You must have reading comprehension problems too.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
I call it the way I see it. If you don't like it you can go cry to mamma or use that ignore function the board has.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
Hmmm, ok. Good for you, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
lol, he keeps rolling on in the absolute most cliche fashion: reading comprehension, cry to mama... :lol
but seriously, I guess the only way Bonner can get any respect is to follow the Manu course: rack up great stats against crappy teams in the regular season, then get injured before the playoffs, so when the team fails to win it all, it will be because they didn't have Bonner :rollin
Calculating "adjusted plus-minus" is a fairly complicated business that tries to factor in the strength of all your teammates and opponents on the court, then center it such that the average NBA player has an adjusted +/- of 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
Fairly short description here:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ted-plus-minus
Much longer descriptions here:
http://www.82games.com/barzilai2.htm
http://www.82games.com/comm30.htm
You can see some real-time data here:
http://basketballvalue.com/index.php
More complete and potentially more useful data is often posted on 82games.com after half-seasons and full seasons.
Since this has somewhat turned into a statistical thread, what are your favorite single player stats, out of pure curiosity?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Also, I think in general Matt Bonner's spacing of the court on the offensive end has a lot to do with team functionality and flow in general, though like I said, I didn't get to watch tonight's game in any continuous manner, so I can understand if that factor didn't really play much into tonight's stats.
BTW, vander... Did you actually watch the game?
The only stat that includes 'Matt Bonner' and 'playoffs' that matter currently stands at 23%. Then you wonder why he doesn't get much respect?Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
matt bonner = mip award?
Hint:Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
http://www.33ff.com/flags/XL_flags_e...ntina_flag.gif
The problem with Bonner is...yes he's a good player, and yes it seems he's going to choke any time we play the Lakers. That's the problem. Him being good is more or less useless if if he can't do it against LA(or other good teams).
I personally think "5 games" (16 only if you include junk time in previous years) matters quite a bit as well. Early playoff stats on Matt Bonner don't look good, but I really don't think the sample size is nearly large enough to make any reasonable conclusion one way or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
People keep mentioning this, but I really don't think it's likely at all. The award usually goes to guys who go from nothing to a very solid role player, or from a solid role player to a near-All-Star (usually the latter). I don't see how you justify MIP from these stats:Quote:
Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY
2008-09: 23.8 mpg, 8.2 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 44.0% 3-point shooter
2009-10: 21.1 mpg, 8.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 45.8% 3-point shooter
He has improved, but not to the point where it is MIP, an increase in production with lesser minutes? I am cool with that. Most MIP candidates only get the increase in numbers with their minutes increased exponentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
I was waiting for Spursnation to have a breakdown after reading that comment. However, I think he's really fitting in now. Seems to be much better off the bench. I would like to see Blair start though, I think Dyce is better off the bench too.Quote:
Originally Posted by vander
especially against SLOW BIGS. this is the only situation where i want to see bonner. i really feel he would do good against a team like the cavs also. i give him props tonight. defense didn't want to make me puke for once.Quote:
Originally Posted by DMX7
+/- is a very poor stat unless you average a whole shitload of games together
that being said, i think bonner has an inexplicably high +/- over his career in sa
If you're measuring offensive output, I think PER is a fairly complete stat for measuring individual production. For defensive work it's much trickier. I would say a combination of rebounding, steals, blocks and opponent FG% is probably closest to what you want to look at.Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
People keep saying this, but against good teams there's no such spacing (look at the Celtics game for a good example). He's also part of the reason the Spurs were a fairly mediocre defensive and rebounding team last season (not all his fault, but he shares a good amount of blame alongside guys like Finley).Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
So, there's both the good and the bad with Matt. Which is normal with any role player out there.
I'm sorry, I must be missing something. What does that has to do with anything? You can't have an opinion of Bonner if you were born overseas?Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
Bingo. Another good example is Dallas in the playoffs last season.Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
His role has changed this year though, and he's more productive off the bench.
That said, we're discussing last night's game production, and how +/- is a fairly lame stat to try to gauge Matt's production.
Sorry for the Off Topic, but, how this +32 or +5 or -5 works?
Bec at some time Manu was in 16 min with almost similar stats to Bonner i think, but Bonner had +22 and Manu +5, dont get it...
Means your opinion is likely flavored with just a tinge of National resentment, hence the, "real hate", Luis.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
And I'm not surpsied you missed it.
I guess I'm still missing it? We're talking about San Antonio Spur Matt Bonner here. If you want to talk about something else, start another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
This would be a good start: LINKQuote:
Originally Posted by OldSilentHill
I like Bonner's off rebounding. It doesn't show on the stats of him disrupting the play and being able to hit it out to a spurs player. But I hope to never see him take the ball for the last shot ever again.
Sure it does. Counts as an offensive board.Quote:
Originally Posted by spursncowboys
Matt Bonner is a great player to bring off the bench.
Find the key words. :blah
I started this thread because the stat was just crazy. +32 in 17 minutes and with only 7 personal points, to boot. I mean a guy like Rudy Gay can generate a +35 with an amazing 41-point performance vs. Miami in 38 minutes...but Bonner's +32 in 17 minutes is just whack. That is all.
Uh no...this thread is about Matt Bonner, you are displaying a pathological hatred of the guy in it, and I feel this thread is the totally appropriate place to discuss why....s's as good as any.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
If you don't want your pathological hatred of him discussed in it(and it is a pro-Bonner thread at heart), then I suggest you stop pathologically hating him in it!
Rofl! Suck on that shit elnono. You're as exposed as the day you were born. Bu bu but me and my Internet cronies were laughing about it on the game thread! Ha. You don't know shit about basketball.Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
:lmao You don't watch the games and you know more than elnonoQuote:
Originally Posted by lurker23
I don't hate any Spur player. Please show me where I'm 'displaying pathological hate' towards Matt Bonner?Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
I hate Spurs fans that use +/- to try to explain Matt Bonner's production, specifically because they most likely do not understand how +/- works at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
If they would, then they wouldn't be trying to explain any single player's production with it.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Matt himself.
That's your counterpoint?... Hmmm, k.Quote:
Originally Posted by thispego
All I know is I love Bonners new role on the team, would like him to lose a few minutes and give them to Blair but 15 minutes off the bench is damn good, especially on the court at the same time as Manu.
EXPOSEDQuote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
you're only argument is something that is obvious to everyone. using +/- to determine a players productivity in ONE game doesn't work. NO SHIT SHERLOCK! :rolleyes
If you actually read anything I posted in this thread, it isn't my only argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by thispego
Furthermore, so far you've failed to statistically prove that using +/- to determine a players productivity even on a large sample size is better than more proven statistical methods. I'm not holding my breath.
i've read everything you've posted which is why you're being called out (and not just by me). You tell me...What are your other arguments?
statistics arguments are about as queer as you can get because you can take whatever stats you want and bend them to suit your arguments. fuck your gay stats. You're an unadulterated bonner hater and you're straight up denying that is the reason you have a problem with this thread. You are a pussy i saaaaaaaaid.
There are other posters I had conversations with about Matt Bonner, both privately and publicly, that know I don't hate him at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by thispego
But who cares what the fuck thispego thinks anyways?
wow, seriously, ElNono ...i would just ignore that thispego guy if i were you.
Don't look now, but Bonner is also making a strong turnaround from the perimeter.
Matt Bonner now ranks 7th in NBA 3-Pt %, while being tied for 2nd most Makes out of the top 10. And that's after a pretty bad start to the season.
(On a side-note, Ginobili has steadily worked his way up to 15th)
haha, yeah you love changing the subject when you know you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I know enough about statistics to know they can ruin an argument.
everyone cares what thispego thinks. even you. pussy
:lol you're a puss too. you learn how to speak english yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpursRulez4eVeR
Solid D needs to change his douche water.
Nice, coming from the wearer of a thread-bare Bonner jersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by SequSpur
Really??? So when he jumps up and swats it out to the guards that will count as an off rebound? I didn't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Three Cheers for Matt! a great role-player who no longer has to start at center and is filling his designated spot with average to above average play!
To me, he's another piece to our puzzle. He's probably more important to this team's chances of winning, and also less important to this teams chances of winning. As stated before, we can't have all-stars at every position, so let's accept who we do have. A near 7 footer who's still on the good side of 30, is getting better every game, hustles his ass off, and can stroke the 3 with the best of 'em.
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by spursncowboys
As Solid D already pointed out, +32 in 17 minutes is too wild a statistic to be taken as anything other than an anomaly.
Actually, Matt didn't even do much when he was on the court. He hit his two threes and watched others increasing the lead even more (Manu especially) - and he wasn't on the court when things looked ugly for a while at the end of the first half.
But Bonner has been looking very solid the last couple of games. His three point shooting is great right now. If he could hit 45% in the playoffs ... well, that would be too awesome to even think about.
As said in a multitude of posts, if he's hitting his shots, then he can do no wrong. What's not to love about a guy like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by quentin_compson
backtracking gold! :lol
Nine days ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by thispego
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
"if he's hitting his shots it's good, if he's missing his shots it's bad." You are a fuckin genius of epic proportions. How are you not employed by the nba? wasted talent, it's a shame :rollin
Thank you, but I'm not. You just happen to honor your avatar of being dumb and dumber with every post.Quote:
Originally Posted by thispego
But this thread is not about me, or you. Or Matt Bonner for that matter.
That said, I'm actually not surprised that you didn't post in that other thread when we actually had a substantive conversation about him.
And that's because you bring absolutely nothing to the table. Zero, zilch, zip.
So, I'm simply not going to respond to any of your posts in this thread until you come back with a post that's worth it, like a rational explanation of why we should take a statistically large sample of plus/minus and prefer it to, say, PER in order to ascertain a player's production.
In the meantime, you can go troll somebody that pays attention to your posts.
thispego is ruling ass in this thread.
Is he your troll? Just wondering...Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by muser