dude!

what site has Udoka as the leading Adj. +/- for the Spurs last year and how do they adjust the +/- stat?

the sites I go to had Bonner at the top followed by Parker.

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Originally Posted by lurker23

I certainly agree that on a single game basis, +/- by itself can be a very misleading stat, and should be taken with a grain (or 10) of salt. However, I think over the course of a longer period of time, it can be a very useful and telling stat, especially when paired with offensive/defensive numbers. For example, Ime's numbers last year show him to be an effective defensive player, probably moreso than most people here give him credit for. The reasons he gets such a bad rap at times is because he didn't turn into Bruce Bowen (unfair standard) and the fact that he completely fell off the map offensively (fair judgment, and ultimately the reason the Spurs moved on).

Of course, am I saying that Matt Bonner (or Ime Udoka) is more important to this team than TD, RJ, Manu, or Tony? Absolutely not. But I do think the stat sheds light on the idea that Matt is a lot more useful than people give him credit for. Ultimately, though, I can certainly agree to disagree, especially on a stat such as +/- that hasn't been kept long enough in the NBA to create useful historical examples, counter-examples, and analogs.

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I'll disagree with you that it's a meaningful stat to analyze single players over a period of time (simply because there's much better stats for that depending on what you want to measure), but other than that I think we're in complete agreement that plus/minus derived from a single game as an indication of a player's contribution can be very misleading. That's why I just can't help myself to call out posts like this one:

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Originally Posted by vander

just Matt Bonner being Matt Bonner, most under-appreciated player in the league, the team just functions better when he's in there.

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Because if you actually watched the game today, the team functionality had absolutely nothing to do with Matt Bonner.

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Originally Posted by vander

what site has Udoka as the leading Adj. +/- for the Spurs last year and how do they adjust the +/- stat?

the sites I go to had Bonner at the top followed by Parker.

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Bonner was the leader, Udoka was second. It's linked on one of the old Bonner threads.

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Originally Posted by vander

hmm, is that yet another generic, vague internet retort?

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No, it's actually not vague at all. You must have reading comprehension problems too.

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Originally Posted by vander

it's fun to do that isn't it? call people you don't like retards, idiots, no-nothings, and use terms like most people, obvious, or apparent to support your non-existent points

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I call it the way I see it. If you don't like it you can go cry to mamma or use that ignore function the board has.

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Originally Posted by vander

see I have a sense of humor, while I may not find suicide or upside-down phones funny, I do find people like you funny

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Hmmm, ok. Good for you, I guess.

lol, he keeps rolling on in the absolute most cliche fashion: reading comprehension, cry to mama... :lol


but seriously, I guess the only way Bonner can get any respect is to follow the Manu course: rack up great stats against crappy teams in the regular season, then get injured before the playoffs, so when the team fails to win it all, it will be because they didn't have Bonner :rollin

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Originally Posted by vander

what site has Udoka as the leading Adj. +/- for the Spurs last year and how do they adjust the +/- stat?

the sites I go to had Bonner at the top followed by Parker.

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Calculating "adjusted plus-minus" is a fairly complicated business that tries to factor in the strength of all your teammates and opponents on the court, then center it such that the average NBA player has an adjusted +/- of 0.

Fairly short description here:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ted-plus-minus

Much longer descriptions here:

http://www.82games.com/barzilai2.htm

http://www.82games.com/comm30.htm

You can see some real-time data here:

http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

More complete and potentially more useful data is often posted on 82games.com after half-seasons and full seasons.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I'll disagree with you that it's a meaningful stat to analyze single players over a period of time (simply because there's much better stats for that depending on what you want to measure), but other than that I think we're in complete agreement that plus/minus derived from a single game as an indication of a player's contribution can be very misleading. That's why I just can't help myself to call out posts like this one:



Because if you actually watched the game today, the team functionality had absolutely nothing to do with Matt Bonner.

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Since this has somewhat turned into a statistical thread, what are your favorite single player stats, out of pure curiosity?

Also, I think in general Matt Bonner's spacing of the court on the offensive end has a lot to do with team functionality and flow in general, though like I said, I didn't get to watch tonight's game in any continuous manner, so I can understand if that factor didn't really play much into tonight's stats.

BTW, vander... Did you actually watch the game?

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Originally Posted by vander

lol, he keeps rolling on in the absolute most cliche fashion: reading comprehension, cry to mama... :lol

but seriously, I guess the only way Bonner can get any respect is to follow the Manu course: rack up great stats against crappy teams in the regular season, then get injured before the playoffs, so when the team fails to win it all, it will be because they didn't have Bonner :rollin

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The only stat that includes 'Matt Bonner' and 'playoffs' that matter currently stands at 23%. Then you wonder why he doesn't get much respect?

matt bonner = mip award?

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Originally Posted by z0sa

elNono has a real hate for Bonner.

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Hint:

http://www.33ff.com/flags/XL_flags_e...ntina_flag.gif


The problem with Bonner is...yes he's a good player, and yes it seems he's going to choke any time we play the Lakers. That's the problem. Him being good is more or less useless if if he can't do it against LA(or other good teams).

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Originally Posted by ElNono

The only stat that includes 'Matt Bonner' and 'playoffs' that matter currently stands at 23%. Then you wonder why he doesn't get much respect?

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I personally think "5 games" (16 only if you include junk time in previous years) matters quite a bit as well. Early playoff stats on Matt Bonner don't look good, but I really don't think the sample size is nearly large enough to make any reasonable conclusion one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

matt bonner = mip award?

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People keep mentioning this, but I really don't think it's likely at all. The award usually goes to guys who go from nothing to a very solid role player, or from a solid role player to a near-All-Star (usually the latter). I don't see how you justify MIP from these stats:

2008-09: 23.8 mpg, 8.2 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 44.0% 3-point shooter
2009-10: 21.1 mpg, 8.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 45.8% 3-point shooter

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Originally Posted by lurker23

People keep mentioning this, but I really don't think it's likely at all. The award usually goes to guys who go from nothing to a very solid role player, or from a solid role player to a near-All-Star (usually the latter). I don't see how you justify MIP from these stats:

2008-09: 23.8 mpg, 8.2 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 44.0% 3-point shooter
2009-10: 21.1 mpg, 8.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 45.8% 3-point shooter

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He has improved, but not to the point where it is MIP, an increase in production with lesser minutes? I am cool with that. Most MIP candidates only get the increase in numbers with their minutes increased exponentially.

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Originally Posted by vander

just Matt Bonner being Matt Bonner, most under-appreciated player in the league, the team just functions better when he's in there.

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I was waiting for Spursnation to have a breakdown after reading that comment. However, I think he's really fitting in now. Seems to be much better off the bench. I would like to see Blair start though, I think Dyce is better off the bench too.

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Originally Posted by DMX7

I was waiting for Spursnation to have a breakdown after reading that comment. However, I think he's really fitting in now. Seems to be much better off the bench. I would like to see Blair start though, I think Dyce is better off the bench too.

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especially against SLOW BIGS. this is the only situation where i want to see bonner. i really feel he would do good against a team like the cavs also. i give him props tonight. defense didn't want to make me puke for once.

+/- is a very poor stat unless you average a whole shitload of games together

that being said, i think bonner has an inexplicably high +/- over his career in sa

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Originally Posted by lurker23

Since this has somewhat turned into a statistical thread, what are your favorite single player stats, out of pure curiosity?

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If you're measuring offensive output, I think PER is a fairly complete stat for measuring individual production. For defensive work it's much trickier. I would say a combination of rebounding, steals, blocks and opponent FG% is probably closest to what you want to look at.

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Originally Posted by lurker23

Also, I think in general Matt Bonner's spacing of the court on the offensive end has a lot to do with team functionality and flow in general, though like I said, I didn't get to watch tonight's game in any continuous manner, so I can understand if that factor didn't really play much into tonight's stats.

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People keep saying this, but against good teams there's no such spacing (look at the Celtics game for a good example). He's also part of the reason the Spurs were a fairly mediocre defensive and rebounding team last season (not all his fault, but he shares a good amount of blame alongside guys like Finley).
So, there's both the good and the bad with Matt. Which is normal with any role player out there.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Hint:

http://www.33ff.com/flags/XL_flags_e...ntina_flag.gif

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I'm sorry, I must be missing something. What does that has to do with anything? You can't have an opinion of Bonner if you were born overseas?

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Originally Posted by whottt

The problem with Bonner is...yes he's a good player, and yes it seems he's going to choke any time we play the Lakers. That's the problem. Him being good is more or less useless if if he can't do it against LA(or other good teams).

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Bingo. Another good example is Dallas in the playoffs last season.
His role has changed this year though, and he's more productive off the bench.

That said, we're discussing last night's game production, and how +/- is a fairly lame stat to try to gauge Matt's production.

Sorry for the Off Topic, but, how this +32 or +5 or -5 works?

Bec at some time Manu was in 16 min with almost similar stats to Bonner i think, but Bonner had +22 and Manu +5, dont get it...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I'm sorry, I must be missing something. What does that has to do with anything? You can't have an opinion of Bonner if you were born overseas?

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Means your opinion is likely flavored with just a tinge of National resentment, hence the, "real hate", Luis.

And I'm not surpsied you missed it.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Means your opinion is likely flavored with just a tinge of National resentment, hence the, "real hate", Luis.

And I'm not surpsied you missed it.

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I guess I'm still missing it? We're talking about San Antonio Spur Matt Bonner here. If you want to talk about something else, start another thread.

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Originally Posted by OldSilentHill

Sorry for the Off Topic, but, how this +32 or +5 or -5 works?

Bec at some time Manu was in 16 min with almost similar stats to Bonner i think, but Bonner had +22 and Manu +5, dont get it...

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This would be a good start: LINK

I like Bonner's off rebounding. It doesn't show on the stats of him disrupting the play and being able to hit it out to a spurs player. But I hope to never see him take the ball for the last shot ever again.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

I like Bonner's off rebounding. It doesn't show on the stats of him disrupting the play and being able to hit it out to a spurs player. But I hope to never see him take the ball for the last shot ever again.

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Sure it does. Counts as an offensive board.

Matt Bonner is a great player to bring off the bench.

Find the key words. :blah