The official start Roger Mason thread

Pop clearly doesn't know how to handle Mason right now. The other day he logs single-digit minutes and tonight he gets a lion's share.

The problem with Mason is that he's a feast or famine offensive player. One minute he's lights out and the next he's ice cold. Factor in that his defense can sometimes be a liability and the much more "stable" choice is Bogans.

The only other wildcard I'll throw in is Hill. Pop obviously wants to get the kid more minutes and he's got the length to guard the 2-spot. I wouldn't be entirely shocked to see Hill starting alongside Parker in the future.

As for Mason though, I think he'll eventually settle into the "shooter" role off the bench. How much he plays will depend on how well he shoots.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

Defense is important but Roger is playing as good as Bogans and he's light years ahead of him on offense

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I disagree. I think Bogans have been doing a great job defensively in most of the games he has played, and much better than Roger defensively, considering he normally guards the other team's best perimeter player where RMJ is normally paired with a bench player. Sure, it's easy to get all excited when RMJ is nailing those threes... but it's fools gold. At some point you're going to need a stop and if you didn't work hard enough on your defense, you're not going to get it.

The other reality here is that under regular circumstances, Duncan, Tony and Richard SHOULD give you more than enough offense. We've just been unable to get them all going against good teams...

+1 on elnono..while these minor changes could make a difference, obviously the success of this team will depend on guys like TP and RJ, and they aren't playing well at all this year..

I agree that we should try to start Mason, and said so a week ago:

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Originally Posted by lurker23

-I'm definitely up for throwing Mason back in the starting lineup in place of Bogans, mostly in an effort to get RMJ in a groove again. Other problems this would solve: relegating Bogans back to a more fitting "situational cooler" role, and adding a (theoretically) more reliable spot-up 3-point shooter to the starting lineup (which the Spurs don't have any more now that Bonner is on the bench).

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RJ and Bogans can theoretically hit 3-pointers, but it's not happening, so something needs to change up to get better spacing early on.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I disagree. I think Bogans have been doing a great job defensively in most of the games he has played, and much better than Roger defensively, considering he normally guards the other team's best perimeter player where RMJ is normally paired with a bench player. Sure, it's easy to get all excited when RMJ is nailing those threes... but it's fools gold. At some point you're going to need a stop and if you didn't work hard enough on your defense, you're not going to get it.

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What's fools gold is relying on Bogans' defense when the evidence so far has shown he gets torched by the likes of Brandon Roy, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony. He isn't close to Bruce Bowen's caliber as a defender.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

What's fools gold is relying on Bogans' defense when the evidence so far has shown he gets torched by the likes of Brandon Roy, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony. He isn't close to Bruce Bowen's caliber as a defender.

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Defense takes time. Bowen didn't do his job all alone. He knew where to take players on the floor where he would get more help, and stuff like that. He didn't stop Lebron all on his own in 2007. Simply shelving defense instead of trying to improve on it is not going to win you anything. I thought last year was a pretty good sample of what happens when your defense is not up to par... quick first round exit.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Defense takes time. Bowen didn't do his job all alone. He knew where to take players on the floor where he would get more help, and stuff like that. He didn't stop Lebron all on his own in 2007. Simply shelving defense instead of trying to improve on it is not going to win you anything. I thought last year was a pretty good sample of what happens when your defense is not up to par... quick first round exit.

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The guy is too damn short and stocky, is has nothing to do with time. Unless your suggesting he's going to grow 4 inches.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

The guy is too damn short and stocky, is has nothing to do with time. Unless your suggesting he's going to grow 4 inches.

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He's 2 inches shorter than Bowen... what's your point?
You move Mason to the starting lineup and he's option number 4 or 5 anyways, behind Duncan, Parker and RJ... If Tony and Richard are taking but not making shots, what difference does it make? Other than having the assurance the other team will score at the other end?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

He's 2 inches shorter than Bowen... what's your point?
You move Mason to the starting lineup and he's option number 4 or 5 anyways, behind Duncan, Parker and RJ... If Tony and Richard are taking but not making shots, what difference does it make? Other than having the assurance the other team will score at the other end?

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And he plays shorter because of his short arms and husky frame that keeps him nailed to the floor. Remember how easily Ray Allen rose up over him for easy shots a couple weeks ago? And Ray Allen is not a tall player by any stretch.

Again, you are underrating Mason's defense. You probably heard this mantra from last year's playoffs and its now perma-etched in your head. All the games I've seen so far this year his defense has been respectable.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

Again, you are underrating Mason's defense. You probably heard this mantra from last year's playoffs and its now perma-etched in your head. All the games I've seen so far this year his defense has been respectable.

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Against who? I've watched every single Spurs game this season too, and he actually started horribly on both offense AND defense, then improved on the offensive end. He's obviously putting effort on defense, but he's just not the kind of guy that will body up to another player, or dive for a loose ball. He also hasn't been tasked to cover the Roy's and the Melo's that you were complaining about.

And you are still dodging the other point here... What's the point of playing him out there as option 4 or 5 anyways?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Against who? I've watched every single Spurs game this season too, and he actually started horribly on both offense AND defense, then improved on the offensive end. He's obviously putting effort on defense, but he's just not the kind of guy that will body up to another player, or dive for a loose ball. He also hasn't been tasked to cover the Roy's and the Melo's that you were complaining about.

And you are still dodging the other point here... What's the point of playing him out there as option 4 or 5 anyways?

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If Tony is moving toward more of a playmaking role it makes perfect sense from that standpoint. Duncan as well. If Timmy is going to kick it out to a shooter we need somebody who can not only get the shot off but make it too. Roger excels at both. Too many times I watch Parker dribble around looking for places to go with the ball as the shot clock winds down and he can't find anyone and turns the ball over. Mason would help in that area.

Another thing: RJ is looking to be limited in a half court offense. Why not just forget that experiment and let Roger move up and take his half court touches. Let RJ do most of his damage in the running game.

That leads me to this point: Mason has a much better full court game than Bogans. That layup he made over Grant Hill was absolutely sick. If Mason can improve the fast break opportunities that will play to RJ's strengths out there.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

If Tony is moving toward more of a playmaking role it makes perfect sense from that standpoint. Duncan as well. If Timmy is going to kick it out to a shooter we need somebody who can not only get the shot off but make it too. Roger excels at both. Too many times I watch Parker dribble around looking for places to go with the ball as the shot clock winds down and he can't find anyone and turns the ball over. Mason would help in that area.

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I disagree. If Tony is giving the ball up, then it's for Duncan or Jefferson... makes sense... they're the best options out there...or they're supposed to be anyways.

I rather work in improving the team defense than the offense. I don't think the problem of our starting lineup in general is the offense really, but the inconsistency on defense. We need to be able to make stops when the ball is not going in, and we're not doing it. Putting another scorer in there is not going to help matters at all.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

Another thing: RJ is looking to be limited in a half court offense. Why not just forget that experiment and let Roger move up and take his half court touches. Let RJ do most of his damage in the running game.That leads me to this point: Mason has a much better full court game than Bogans. That layup he made over Grant Hill was absolutely sick. If Mason can improve the fast break opportunities that will play to RJ's strengths out there.

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RJ is going to have to learn to play with Duncan and Parker, same thing with Dice. It all boils down to the fact that when crunch time comes, he'll be out there with those guys and he needs to learn what to do out there. I think that's entirely the reason Pop has not moved Dice to the bench even when his play has been more down than up recently. We probably will lose some games in the process, but that's just the tradeoff from learning.

Actually George Hill needs a hella lot more minutes. I think he'd make a difference defensively for the Spurs and he's been there long enough to know the system. Throw him into the fire.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I disagree. If Tony is giving the ball up, then it's for Duncan or Jefferson... makes sense... they're the best options out there...or they're supposed to be anyways.

I rather work in improving the team defense than the offense. I don't think the problem of our starting lineup in general is the offense really, but the inconsistency on defense. We need to be able to make stops when the fall is not falling, and we're not doing it. Putting another scorer in there is not going to help matters at all.

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17 points in the 1st quarter against the suns and offense is not our problem? Ok :/

Obviously your going to believe what you want, but time will tell who's right.

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Originally Posted by Indazone

Actually George Hill needs a hella lot more minutes. I think he'd make a difference defensively for the Spurs and he's been there long enough to know the system. Throw him into the fire.

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The problem with George is that he gets no respect being a sophomore, and he gets in foul trouble rather easily. He's still learning the ropes. I'm sure he'll get more time later down the season if he learns not to give up those ticky tacky fouls that often.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

17 points in the 1st quarter against the suns and offense is not our problem? Ok :/

Obviously your going to believe what you want, but time will tell who's right.

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It's not because Bogans took exactly 0 shots. That means our best players out there in Duncan, Tony and Jefferson, took the shots, which is what you want, and we missed everything. Swapping Mason for Bogans wouldn't have made any difference at all. The actual problem was not that we only scored 17, the problem was that we couldn't stop them from scoring 28 points on us.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

It's not because Bogans took exactly 0 shots. That means our best players out there in Duncan, Tony and Jefferson, took the shots, which is what you want, and we missed everything. Swapping Mason for Bogans wouldn't have made any difference at all. The actual problem was not that we only scored 17, the problem was that we couldn't hold them to 17 points also.

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That's some convoluted logic to say the least.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

That's some convoluted logic to say the least.

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What's convoluted about it? When Tim, Tony and Richard (or Manu) are out there, that's the guys you want taking shots. There's nothing convoluted about that. If they're not making shots, then that puts pressure on our defense. If our defense is not up to par, then we're fucked. Just because you put Mason out there doesn't mean he's going to be taking Tim, Tony or Richard shots, and there's so many shots available out there for everybody.

This is basic basketball stuff here.

The answer is so obvious, and it doesn't involve Mason or Bogans:

start George Hill

Just like Adleman threw Aaron Brooks into the fire, perhaps it's time to throw George into the fire too. Sure he'll be up and down but after a few games, we were all glad over here in Houston that Brooks was out there instead of Rafer Suckass Alston.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

What's convoluted about it? When Tim, Tony and Richard (or Manu) are out there, that's the guys you want taking shots. There's nothing convoluted about that. If they're not making shots, then that puts pressure on our defense. If our defense is not up to par, then we're fucked. Just because you put Mason out there doesn't mean he's going to be taking Tim, Tony or Richard shots, and there's so many shots available out there for everybody.

This is basic basketball stuff here.

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It's convoluted because your basically saying as bad as the offense is the defense should just work that much harder to compensate.

Those guys you mentioned "who you want taking shot", aren't getting it done, bonehead. When Duncan has to score almost 40 and the spurs lose there is a problem. You can bet he is going to be burned out come playoff time at this pace.

So what's wrong? Bogans plain sucks on offense. Jefferson sucks in half court and is more of a full court player. Solution: swap in a guy like Mason who helps get the half court offense going and helps get the running game going at the same time.

See, basic basketball stuff here.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

It's convoluted because your basically saying as bad as the offense is the defense should just work that much harder to compensate.

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Ofcourse. That's how good teams do it, and that's how we won our championships. Bruce Bowen had low scoring nights out there, but he still found ways to affect the game defensively. Eventually, it becomes psychological. You don't worry that much about missing a shot, because you know you can get it back at the other end. But when you don't have that safety net, you put a lot more pressure on your offense.

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Originally Posted by TJastal

Those guys you mentioned "who you want taking shot", aren't getting it done, bonehead. When Duncan has to score almost 40 and the spurs lose there is a problem. You can bet he is going to be burned out come playoff time at this pace.

So what's wrong? Bogans plain sucks on offense. Jefferson sucks in half court and is more of a full court player. Solution: swap in a guy like Mason who helps get the half court offense going and helps get the running game going at the same time.

See, basic basketball stuff here.

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Bogans only played 10 minutes tonight. He played alongside Duncan, Jefferson and Parker. If Mason would have played those extra 10 minutes, we would have been exactly on the same hole, because when Duncan, Jefferson and Parker are out there, they take the shots. It matters very little wether Bogans sucks on offense or not. We already have other players working the bulk of the offense. We need complementary players than play defense with them.

Your 'swap Mason for RJ' is a different story altogether, but one that I already addressed in another post. It's RJ that's going to be in crunch time with TD, TP and Manu out there, not Mason. So he's going to have to learn to play with them.
This is always under the premise that the coaching staff believes that Jefferson is a better player overall than Mason, which I think they do.