McDonald: An opening for Haislip

An opening for Haislip
By Jeff McDonald

The news coming out of the AT&T Center after the Spurs beat Indiana on Saturday night was that Matt Bonner could miss up to a month with a broken right hand. Bonner will be re-evaluated Monday, at which point a timetable will be solidified, but it is evident the Spurs can expect be without their most accurate 3-point shooter for a considerable while.

This is a more significant development than you might think.

Of the five big men the Spurs suited up Saturday, only one -- Bonner -- is capable of stretching the floor to the 3-point arc. Remove him from the mix, and you're left with a collection of mid-range shooters (Antonio McDyess) and players who should never, ever shoot from outside the paint (DeJuan Blair, Theo Ratliff) to deploy next to Tim Duncan.

Bonner's absence could drastically alter how Gregg Popovich approaches his second unit. Duncan hinted as much after the game.

"He really plays some good minutes for us and changes the look on the floor," Duncan said of Bonner. "We'll have to adjust without him and hope he gets back soon."

There is one big man Popovich could tab that would not alter the Spurs' m.o. that much. Marcus Haislip has been little more than a tall man in a nice suit so far in his first season with the Spurs. Bonner's injury might be just the break, no pun intended, he was looking for.

Haislip, an intriguing offseason free-agent signee, has appeared in one game with the Spurs. His minutes have been limited by the dual facts that A) he is new, and B) Popovich has had five other big men for whom to find minutes.

Haislip, however, is now the only healthy big man on the roster with a 3-point shot in his arsenal. He's almost certain to be activated while Bonner is shelved. Might Popovich finally call his number on somewhat of a consistent basis?

It is difficult to envision Haislip approaching the 20 minutes a night Bonner was averaging. But if he can earn five or 10, and make the most of them, he has a good opportunity to earn Popovich's trust for down the road.

Bonner's injury appears to have provided a slight crack of an opening for Haislip. It is up to him to show what he can do with it.

Haislip is not a NBA player. / Thread McDonald

i'd rather see mahinmi getting minutes.

haislip is not going to help beat the lakers. popovich needs to start giving ratliff and mahinmi minutes. we're going to get murdered by big teams.

thats why we got him! odom, dirk, all those type of players so yes i do believe if he plays at a good level he'll help us out alot, hes way more athletic and since hes been sitting and watching plays he probably has a good understanding of whats going on out there

The opening better close quick.

is this is the same fans who called bonner suck just a few weeks ago? wow. now hesitate to give Haislip a chance to prove him self. i wander what we going to hear when bonner returns and Haislip's minutes get reduced again. Guess we have to just wait and c.

I Hope Marcus Get His Shot And Plays Extremely well!

I want Haislip to get a chance.

I don't know what all you people are on about that do not even want to give him a chance.

There are more and more severely challenged posters signing up at Spurstalk thinking they know an ounce of basketball when they know jackshit.

Not sure why giving Haislip a shot is a bad thing...

looks like ratliff will be getting some time again. haislip might get some minutes but i doubt he'll get more than 10 minutes.

also, no way mahinmi or haislip will ever see minutes in the playoffs. mahinmi and haislip have not even proven they can suit up and sit on the bench yet. yeah, lets have "i foul every two seconds" mahinmi and "i can't beat out bonner for a roster spot" haislip play against the elite bigs of playoff contenders. stop wishing for a miracle breakout. spurs' only hope is that bonner doesn't welt under the pressure and mcdyess + ratliff are 100% playoff time.

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Originally Posted by benefactor

Any sort of extended dose of Ian or Haislip will make the haters beg for Bonner to get well.

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Give Ian some burn!

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'd rather see mahinmi getting minutes.

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the whole point of the article was the need for a big who spreads the floor with a 3-pt shot. Does Ian spread the floor? I doubt it.
Too bad haislip got no playing time during the season so far. If he had gotten a little more playing time, he wouldn't be so new right now.

FML. I don't want to rag on Haislip, 1) Because he probably won't get that much burn anyways, but primarily because 2) I have not seen him play too much against NBA level competition.

What I have seen does not look promising at all.

I don't want bigs that spread the floor. I want bigs that rebound the ball, play decent defense around the rim, block shots and help Tim protect the paint. This would be a good opportunity to see if we have any of that or if we should be looking somewhere else for it.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't want bigs that spread the floor. I want bigs that rebound the ball, play decent defense around the rim, block shots and help Tim protect the paint. This would be a good opportunity to see if we have any of that or if we should be looking somewhere else for it.

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At least there's one rational person on spurstalk.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't want bigs that spread the floor. I want bigs that rebound the ball, play decent defense around the rim, block shots and help Tim protect the paint. This would be a good opportunity to see if we have any of that or if we should be looking somewhere else for it.

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Couldn't have said it any better. :tu

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Originally Posted by _JaG

Not sure why giving Haislip a shot is a bad thing...

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It's not. There's just a lot of idiots posting now.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't want bigs that spread the floor. I want bigs that rebound the ball, play decent defense around the rim, block shots and help Tim protect the paint. This would be a good opportunity to see if we have any of that or if we should be looking somewhere else for it.

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Theo averaging 10 minutes a game whie playing every game left this year would be nice, but I still would advocate Haislip and Ian getting a chance.

If he was better than Bonner, whom evidently sucks, it would not take a Bonner injury just so he could be activated, let alone getting time.

Is Haislip going to be the next Pops Mensah-Bonsu?

If Haislip can come in and bring the energy/rebounding/blocks that Pops brought, I would be happy.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

FML. I don't want to rag on Haislip, 1) Because he probably won't get that much burn anyways, but primarily because 2) I have not seen him play too much against NBA level competition.

What I have seen does not look promising at all.

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Well in the preseason he looked pretty bad. When he was played at the 4 he was getting pushed around by the opponents bigs and when he was played at the 3 he missed just about every jumper he took, and defensively he looked pretty lost. I know basing things on the preseason may not mean a lot in the big scheme of things but I'm just sayin. . .

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Originally Posted by Buddy Holly

It's not. There's just a lot of idiots posting now.

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:tu

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't want bigs that spread the floor. I want bigs that rebound the ball, play decent defense around the rim, block shots and help Tim protect the paint. This would be a good opportunity to see if we have any of that or if we should be looking somewhere else for it.

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same thoughts...this just may be the break the team needs. Bonner is a great 3 point specialist but mechanical slow rotating defense does not equal championship. I've notice recently that every time he plays around 24 minutes they lose. I JUST HOPE ITS NOT ALL SMALL BALL FROM NOW ON.

I wouldnt be surprised if pop doesnt give ian, theo, or haislip any minutes.

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Originally Posted by thispego

:tu

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You think getting Haislip on the court over Bonner is a good thing? Or you just think given the circumstances, getting the guy some burn is the best option?

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Originally Posted by Buddy Holly

There are more and more severely challenged posters signing up at Spurstalk thinking they know an ounce of basketball when they know jackshit.

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You must be talking about yourself. Put in haislip and watch the to's mount.

I think it'll be very interesting to see how Haislip or Ian take advantage of this situation.

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Originally Posted by Bender

the whole point of the article was the need for a big who spreads the floor with a 3-pt shot. Does Ian spread the floor? I doubt it.
Too bad haislip got no playing time during the season so far. If he had gotten a little more playing time, he wouldn't be so new right now.

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I'll never understand this... why the hell do you need a big that shoot 3s? Name how many elite teams one the championship with a 3 point shooting not counting Robert Horry because he was just a freak of nature. You have 3 other players on the floor that can shoot the outside shot. The bigs need to be there to play clean up and defend the paint. Euro (centers and PF shooting 3s) ball has destroyed this but show me how often it has been proven successfully at a high level.

When the playoffs start teams defend the 3. Ever wonder why players like Bonner just disappear? Honestly its not a coincidence.

Timmy can shoot the 3 (even winning the spurs 3pt contest lol) just as well as some of our guards but he knows his roll and leaves it to the guards and small forward.

Pop's never ending quest to find a Horry replacement will never happen because Horry was a one of a kind player.

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Originally Posted by Buddy Holly

It's not. There's just a lot of idiots posting now.

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There are some idiots here, but lately possibly just as many I'm better then you attitude vets that post nothing but to belittle and call names like you would in the 3rd grade.

Seriously dude, thats all you have posted here. I doubt you will care, or read this because I'm just another one of those that don't have 10k+ posts

Sorry to be calling you out here but you are definitely not the only one.

It is not so much that you need a big to "hit 3's", but you do need a big that can stretch defenses and space the floor. It is about spacing, not about three-pointers. Bonners range just happens to extend that far.

Haislip was not getting time before because he did not deserve it.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

It is not so much that you need a big to "hit 3's", but you do need a big that can stretch defenses and space the floor. It is about spacing, not about three-pointers. Bonners range just happens to extend that far.

Haislip was not getting time before because he did not deserve it.

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But what about at a high playoff level? What team has ever been successful employing this? From what it seems to me a big spreading the floor doesn't make much a difference when teams are playing defense at their top level.

Plenty of teams. Lakers have Pau Gasol who can extend out to 20 feet. Robinson could spread the floor. Rasheed Wallace with Detroit. Garnett with Celtics.

Defense is important, but all of those guys provide spacing on the offensive end as well.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

It is not so much that you need a big to "hit 3's", but you do need a big that can stretch defenses and space the floor. It is about spacing, not about three-pointers. Bonners range just happens to extend that far.

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You mean like when Duncan played with DRob, Rasho and Nazr?. What spacing did they provide?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Plenty of teams. Lakers have Pau Gasol who can extend out to 20 feet. Robinson could spread the floor. Rasheed Wallace with Detroit. Garnett with Celtics.

Defense is important, but all of those guys provide spacing on the offensive end as well.

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That's all good. But Gasol can average 20 boards not because he's parking his ass 20 feet out. Garnett is a jump shooter himself and can play excellent defense. Wallace has actually regressed considerably SINCE he started jacking up threes, and most Pistons and Celtics fans can attest to that.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

That's all good. But Gasol can average 20 boards not because he's parking his ass 20 feet out. Garnett is a jump shooter himself and can play excellent defense. Wallace has actually regressed considerably SINCE he started jacking up threes, and most Pistons and Celtics fans can attest to that.

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And? They have all won titles with guys who can space the floor. If they just play good defense, sometimes that is not good enough. Having guys to space the floor makes everything easier.

Gasol cannot average 20 boards :lol. Dice should be able to do the trick. Solid boards, defense and spacing.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You mean like when Duncan played with DRob, Rasho and Nazr?. What spacing did they provide?

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Rob was a very solid mid-range shooter over time. If you so happen to have a pairing of Duncan/Robinson, then yeah, offensive spacing might not be so important because the defense is so great.

But that does not happen all of the time and most of the time you need spacing with defense.

Also, I can give you just as many examples of teams (like I already did) that contradict what you say. Don't act like because Tim won with those guys like that means everyone has.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

And? They have all won titles with guys who can space the floor. If they just play good defense, sometimes that is not good enough. Having guys to space the floor makes everything easier.

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Are you implying that Bynum spaces the floor for Gasol?
Or that Perkins spaces the floor for Garnett?
Or that Ben Wallace spaced the floor for Rasheed?

What you just wrote makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Gasol cannot average 20 boards :lol. Dice should be able to do the trick. Solid boards, defense and spacing.

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Well, he did grab 78 in the last 4 games. My point is, he won't be grabbing double digit boards by sitting 20 feet out. That just doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Rob was a very solid mid-range shooter over time. If you so happen to have a pairing of Duncan/Robinson, then yeah, offensive spacing might not be so important because the defense is so great.

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DRob was the perfect complement because he had a post game also and much like the Lakers today, both players on the front commanded a lot of attention. Insinuating that DRob was supposed to play 20 feet out of the rim so Tim could have room to operate is preposterous.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Also, I can give you just as many examples of teams (like I already did) that contradict what you say. Don't act like because Tim won with those guys like that means everyone has.

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What teams? You still haven't. The only other team I can think of is the early 2000 Lakers, who, not surprisingly, had Robert Horry playing the 3 point shooter big.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Are you implying that Bynum spaces the floor for Gasol?
Or that Perkins spaces the floor for Garnett?
Or that Ben Wallace spaced the floor for Rasheed?

What you just wrote makes no sense.



Well, he did grabbed 78 in the last 4 games. My point is, he won't be grabbing double digit boards by sitting 20 feet out. That just doesn't happen.

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I am implying that all teams that win titles have a low-post defensive presence and on offense, someone has to space the floor. If you have 2 Perkins on the Celtics instead of KG/Perkins, sure the defense would be just as solid but the offense would suffer without Garnett's spacing. It makes perfect sense and you are just confusing yourself.

My point is that there is such a thing as defensive rebounding. That has nothing to do with spacing the floor on offense.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

DRob was the perfect complement because he had a post game also and much like the Lakers today, both players on the front commanded a lot of attention. Insinuating that DRob was supposed to play 20 feet out of the rim so Tim could have room to operate is preposterous.

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I think you are having a language barrier, or comprehension problem. Where did I say that Drob was supposed to play 20 feet out? I said having the ability to do so opens things up on offense and teams need that.

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What teams? You still haven't. The only other team I can think of is the early 2000 Lakers, who, not surprisingly, had Robert Horry playing the 3 point shooter big.

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Lakers with Pau won and he is a guy that can shoot from 20 feet. The Celtics with KG. The Pistions with Wallace. The Lakers with Horry. All of those teams won titles and they had big men who are capable of spacing the floor because of their abilities to shoot.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Plenty of teams. Lakers have Pau Gasol who can extend out to 20 feet. Robinson could spread the floor. Rasheed Wallace with Detroit. Garnett with Celtics.

Defense is important, but all of those guys provide spacing on the offensive end as well.

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These guys exept Sheed also post up, do slashing moves to the basket and defend. Sheed defends. But these guys like Elnono says play along side Perkens, and bynem. Even playing with post up only players like these they don't just dont camp outside to spread the floor.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I am implying that all teams that win titles have a low-post defensive presence and on offense, someone has to space the floor. If you have 2 Perkins on the Celtics instead of KG/Perkins, sure the defense would be just as solid but the offense would suffer without Garnett's spacing. It makes perfect sense and you are just confusing yourself.

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I understand what you mean. My point still stands: Duncan doesn't need a 3 point shooting big to space the floor for him in order to operate in the paint. Something he has done with plenty of other players that knew what to do and did not involve parking their asses in the 3 point line.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

My point is that there is such a thing as defensive rebounding. That has nothing to do with spacing the floor on offense.

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I was speaking of offensive boards. Gasol grabs a lot of offensive boards and doesn't do that by parking his ass 20 feet out.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

These guys exept Sheed also post up, do slashing moves to the basket and defend. Sheed defends. But these guys like Elnono says play along side Perkens, and bynem. Even playing with post up only players like these they don't just dont camp outside to spread the floor.

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That is not the point. It is about having the threat and ability to space the floor.

Spurs cannot just magically make good defensive big man appear out of no where. If that is the case, the offense has to have spacing in order to offset some defensive deficiencies.

These guys play along side Duncan. He needs space. It would be great to have someone else that can post up and play outside, but that is not the case. The real point is that you need guys that have the ability to space the floor. If Pau and KG could not do that, their teams would be much worse off. That is what makes the Lakers and the Celtics the best, they have those types of players.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Where did I say that Drob was supposed to play 20 feet out?

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He was supposed to play in the key most of the time, as was Rasho.

No mention of Horry?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I understand what you mean. My point still stands: Duncan doesn't need a 3 point shooting big to space the floor for him in order to operate in the paint. Something he has done with plenty of other players that knew what to do and did not involve parking their asses in the 3 point line.

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I said in my post it is not about 3-point shooting. Dice is not a 3-point shooter. Pau is not a 3-point shooter. KG is not a 3-point shooter. But they all provide spacing with their shooting. They can do other things as well, but they all have the ability to spread out.

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I was speaking of offensive boards. Gasol grabs a lot of offensive boards and doesn't do that by parking his ass 20 feet out.

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Spurs have never really grabbed a ton of offensive boards. It is a philosophy they have. They get back on defense. Gasol does crash the boards offensively but it helps when Kobe is drawing tons of coverage and people leave him.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

He was supposed to play in the key most of the time, as was Rasho.

No mention of Horry?

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What do you mean?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I think you are having a language barrier, or comprehension problem. Where did I say that Drob was supposed to play 20 feet out? I said having the ability to do so opens things up on offense and teams need that.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Rob was a very solid mid-range shooter over time.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Lakers with Pau won and he is a guy that can shoot from 20 feet. The Celtics with KG. The Pistions with Wallace. The Lakers with Horry. All of those teams won titles and they had big men who are capable of spacing the floor because of their abilities to shoot.

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Please... Pau lives under the basket. He very rarely will take a 20 foot shot unless he absolutely has to. He's nothing like a player such as Dirk. KG will post up his man also, he just doesn't have a hook shot, and instead will take a turnaround jumper. Wallace did not shoot three pointers when they won it all in Detroit. Under Larry Brown, he was a complete post-up guy. Go look at the 2005 Finals tape and tell me how many threes he took in that series.

The reality is that while they obviously don't pile on each other, there's a huge difference between sitting your ass at the 3 point line and being within reach of the basket. Measurable difference.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

What do you mean?

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Spacing.

So does spacing only apply to the center and power forward positions and not have anything to do with those who surround those positions; spacing-in-a-vacuum?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

That is not the point. It is about having the threat and ability to space the floor.

Spurs cannot just magically make good defensive big man appear out of no where. If that is the case, the offense has to have spacing in order to offset some defensive deficiencies.

These guys play along side Duncan. He needs space. It would be great to have someone else that can post up and play outside, but that is not the case. The real point is that you need guys that have the ability to space the floor. If Pau and KG could not do that, their teams would be much worse off. That is what makes the Lakers and the Celtics the best, they have those types of players.

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Doesnt Timmy have the ability to hit an outside Shot at a good rate just as much as paul or KG? Yet Paul plays with Bynum just fine. Timmy imo can spread the floor just as much if not more then a 3pt shooting big ever could.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Spacing.

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I know, I meant what did you mean by the comment. Do you not agree with the spacing philosophy? Horry has been mentioned, but to make a point about it not being simple "3-point" shooting, I am mentioning teams that have won titles with guys who have the ability to space the floor with their shooting such as Pau, KG, Wallace,...

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I know, I meant what did you mean by the comment. Do you not agree with the spacing philosophy? Horry has been mentioned, but to make a point about it not being simple "3-point" shooting, I am mentioning teams that have won titles with guys who have the ability to space the floor with their shooting such as Pau, KG, Wallace,...

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I do agree with the spacing argument; that's why I mentioned where Robinson and Rasho usually set up.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Please... Pau lives under the basket. He very rarely will take a 20 foot shot unless he absolutely has to. He's nothing like a player such as Dirk. KG will post up his man also, he just doesn't have a hook shot, and instead will take a turnaround jumper. Wallace did not shoot three pointers when they won it all in Detroit. Under Larry Brown, he was a complete post-up guy. Go look at the 2005 Finals tape and tell me how many threes he took in that series.

The reality is that while they obviously don't pile on each other, there's a huge difference between sitting your ass at the 3 point line and being within reach of the basket. Measurable difference.

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Once again, I said it is not about 3-point shooting. You keep going back to that presumably because of Bonner. That just so happens to be Bonner's game and range. But the Spurs like Dice, even though he does not shoot 3's because he has a reliable mid-range game amongst other things.

I agree you don't need a 3-PT shooter (from a big man perspective) to win, but it certainly helps offensive spacing when you have 2 bigs and one can spread the floor.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I know, I meant what did you mean by the comment. Do you not agree with the spacing philosophy? Horry has been mentioned, but to make a point about it not being simple "3-point" shooting, I am mentioning teams that have won titles with guys who have the ability to space the floor with their shooting such as Pau, KG, Wallace,...

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I find it hilarious you really think those guys are shooters... I mean, ALL of those guys operate within 10 feet of the basket. At least they all did when they won it all. Will they take a long shot here and there? Sure, just like TD does. But that's very far from their bread and butter, which is to backup their man inside the paint and finish.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

Doesnt Timmy have the ability to hit an outside Shot at a good rate just as much as paul or KG? Yet Paul plays with Bynum just fine. Timmy imo can spread the floor just as much if not more then a 3pt shooting big ever could.

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Yes, but unlike the other bigs on the Spurs, Tim also plays down low. His shooting from 15-20 feet has become more prevalent in recent years.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I agree you don't need a 3-PT shooter (from a big man perspective) to win, but it certainly helps offensive spacing when you have 2 bigs and one can spread the floor.

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This was easily solvable when we had Rasho and Nazr by simply calling the play and making sure players executed.

And, BTW. When we had Rasho/Nazr/Oberto/DRob, they all played weak side under the basket on 4-down. Plenty of spacing for Duncan to operate looks like. And they all could go for a putback.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I find it hilarious you really think those guys are shooters... I mean, ALL of those guys operate within 10 feet of the basket. At least they all did when they won it all. Will they take a long shot here and there? Sure, just like TD does. But that's very far from their bread and butter, which is to backup their man inside the paint and finish.

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http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

KG took way more shots outside the paint than he did in it.


Pau has taken a ton of shots at the rim, but that is more because of who he plays with. Still, point remains that if he did not have the ability to spread out, his game and the team would suffer.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And, BTW. When we had Rasho/Nazr/Oberto/DRob, they all played weak side under the basket on 4-down. Plenty of spacing for Duncan to operate looks like. And they all could go for a putback.

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So are you just comparing these guys with Bonner? Or do you disagree you need a big (whether or not he shoots 3's) to space the floor?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And, BTW. When we had Rasho/Nazr/Oberto/DRob, they all played weak side under the basket on 4-down.

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Rasho definitely played above the free throw line during that play. Playing under the basket would pretty much guarantee a two-big double team on Duncan.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Yes, but unlike the other bigs on the Spurs, Tim also plays down low. His shooting from 15-20 feet has become more prevalent in recent years.

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Exactly why I think spurs should give up trying to find a 3pt outside shooting Big and go with a defencive one. KG and Paul can shoot outside yes but they also post down low, but the still manage to be able to do this just fine with a low post only player such as Bynum and Perkens.

You yourself were using these players as an example. If Paul can spread the floor and still do his low post thing even alongside of a lowpost player then so can Tim.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

Exactly why I think spurs should give up trying to find a 3pt outside shooting Big and go with a defencive one. KG and Paul can shoot outside yes but they also post down low, but the still manage to be able to do this just fine with a low post only player such as Bynum and Perkens.

You yourself were using these players as an example. If Paul can spread the floor and still do his low post thing even alongside of a lowpost player then so can Tim.

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Where do you find these players that can do what KG/Pau/Wallace...do? Just because Bonner cannot post up effectively does not mean that his abilities aren't helpful. He shoots the 3 at an extremely high percentage and that is the best thing in basketball offensively.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

KG took way more shots outside the paint than he did in it.

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http://i49.tinypic.com/34zhte0.png

Come again?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Pau has taken a ton of shots at the rim, but that is more because of who he plays with. Still, point remains that if he did not have the ability to spread out, his game and the team would suffer.

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Bynum?

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Originally Posted by Chomag

You yourself were using these players as an example. If Paul can spread the floor and still do his low post thing even alongside of a lowpost player then so can Tim.

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Of course, usually that is done as a high pick for Parker or Manu. If you are really arguing that Duncan needs to turn into DRob circa 1999, then who is going to be Duncan from that time?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

So are you just comparing these guys with Bonner? Or do you disagree you need a big (whether or not he shoots 3's) to space the floor?

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I disagree that Tim requires a jump shooter big next to him in order to be able to operate in the paint, something that overused these days.
I further argue that is a detriment to the team to have a guy cannot rebound and defend inside the paint at a good rate.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Where do you find these players that can do what KG/Pau/Wallace...do? Just because Bonner cannot post up effectively does not mean that his abilities aren't helpful. He shoots the 3 at an extremely high percentage and that is the best thing in basketball offensively.

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What player can we find? How about a player named TD?

The 3 pointer is not the most effective thing in offense. The 3pt shoot is actually the lowest % shot to take in the game.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

http://i49.tinypic.com/34zhte0.png

Come again?

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Did you not look at the chart? He shot just as much from outside as inside.

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Bynum?

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Kobe

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Rasho definitely played above the free throw line during that play. Playing under the basket would pretty much guarantee a two-big double team on Duncan.

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True. I'm thinking Oberto and Nazr. Oberto being the one recipient of many bunnies when the two bigs doubled.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

What player can we find? How about a player named TD?

The 3 pointer is not the most effective thing in offense. The 3pt shoot is actually the lowest % shot to take in the game.

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Once again, if you take Duncan out, who goes in? Who takes Tim's place?

I did not say the 3-pointer is the most effective thing. I said that having someone who shoots the three at a very high rate is the most effective and efficient thing in offense.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

http://i49.tinypic.com/34zhte0.png

Come again?

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279 > 158

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Bynum?

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Odom, if we are talking about big men.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

True. I'm thinking Oberto and Nazr. Oberto being the one recipient of many bunnies when the two bigs doubled.

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Not that many. I also do remember Nazr's parking in the key and at least trying to catapult in jumpers from there. Of course, Malik sat out there a lot too.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Did you not look at the chart? He shot 279 shots from outside the paint compared to 158 inside. That is more.

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You don't see what is KG's bread and butter in that chart? We already argued that he will take the occasional long shot.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Kobe

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We're talking big man spacing here. If you want to move the goalposts, then we can do that too.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Of course, usually that is done as a high pick for Parker or Manu. If you are really arguing that Duncan needs to turn into DRob circa 1999, then who is going to be Duncan from that time?

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Just becuase it's something Tim is used to does not mean he can't do it without. IMO Tim's game such as KG and Paul as an example would be just fine even if there is not a 3pt or an outside threat shooting big with him to spread the floor. Since Tim spreads the floor better himself then anyone else on this team.

You also cannot weight so heavily the fact that the Spurs were able to win with Nazr/Oberto because that was one of the weaker title teams (talent wise). Just because that happened, does not mean it would not be beneficial for Oberto to have a jumper like a McDyess.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You don't see what is KG's bread and butter in that chart?

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Midrange shooting? Sure.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Not that many. I also do remember Nazr's parking in the key and at least trying to catapult in jumpers from there. Of course, Malik sat out there a lot too.

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Malik had a fairly reliable jumper, and he could board very well for his size.

...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You don't see what is KG's bread and butter in that chart? We already argued that he will take the occasional long shot.



We're talking big man spacing here. If you want to move the goalposts, then we can do that too.

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Taking more shots outside than inside is not occasional :lol, that is the norm.

Kobe draws attention like a big man. You are just grasping as semantics and trying to turn a single example (Tim winning with Oberto) into the norm.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Midrange shooting? Sure.

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Look again...

Midrange shooting hot zones: 47/92 (.508)
Paint hot zone: 93/158 (.589)

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

You also cannot weight so heavily the fact that the Spurs were able to win with Nazr/Oberto because that was one of the weaker title teams (talent wise).

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Horry played more than either of those players in their respective finals.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

You also cannot weight so heavily the fact that the Spurs were able to win with Nazr/Oberto because that was one of the weaker title teams (talent wise). Just because that happened, does not mean it would not be beneficial for Oberto to have a jumper like a McDyess.

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We won 2 separate titles with Nazr (2005) and Oberto (2007)...

You're probably talking about the 2007 team... yet that team played better defense than our current roster

I am just saying he is trying to weight Oberto/Nazr much heavier than he should to suit his argument.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Kobe draws attention like a big man. You are just grasping as semantics and trying to turn a single example (Tim winning with Oberto) into the norm.

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You're trying to turn one example (Tim winning with Horry) into the norm. You still haven't explained how TD was able to operate with the spacing provided by Rasho, Nazr and DRob. All players that played inside the paint.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Look again...

Midrange shooting hot zones: 47/92 (.508)
Paint hot zone: 93/158 (.589)

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:lol What is your definition of midrange?

Mine is pretty much anything inside the three point line since that graph has pretty large zones.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I am just saying he is trying to weight Oberto/Nazr much heavier than he should to suit his argument.

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Allright, let's take Nazr and Oberto out, for sake of argument.
How about Rasho? How did he space the floor for Duncan?

Like I said a few posts ago, I'm just explaining why I think the whole must have an Euro type big in the NBA to me has been overatted. With the other 3 players on the floor to take care of the outside shot it's realy not that important as some have made it to be. Again this is just how I see it.

When teams playing defence at a high level during the playoffs there are no easy shoots, and these type of bigs are known to disappear.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

:lol What is your definition of midrange?

Mine is pretty much anything inside the three point line since that graph has pretty large zones.

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That's my definition as well, and exactly why I left out the sole 3 pointer he made. We're talking his bread and butter here, in other words, where's he's most effective. Which would be the zones marked with RED in that graph. Come on Chump, do you really need me to explain color-coding to you?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You're trying to turn one example (Tim winning with Horry) into the norm. You still haven't explained how TD was able to operate with the spacing provided by Rasho, Nazr and DRob. All players that played inside the paint.

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No. Tim with Horry, Bynum with Pau, Perkins with KG, Wallace with Wallace. Those are all examples that support spacing.

Chump and I have already explained the Duncan with Rasho/Drob/Nazr thing. But your only rebuttal is that KG, even though he shoots more from outside than in the paint, lives in the paint.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You're trying to turn one example (Tim winning with Horry) into the norm. You still haven't explained how TD was able to operate with the spacing provided by Rasho, Nazr and DRob. All players that played inside the paint.

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They mostly camped out in the key.

And winning with Horry was the norm since he played the most minutes of any big man outside of Duncan the last two finals wins.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

No. Tim with Horry, Bynum with Pau, Perkins with KG, Wallace with Wallace. Those are all examples that support spacing.

Chump and I have already explained the Duncan with Rasho/Drob/Nazr thing.

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You did? Where is that?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

That's my definition as well, and exactly why I left out the sole 3 pointer he made. We're talking his bread and butter here, in other words, where's he's most effective. Which would be the zones marked with RED in that graph. Come on Chump, do you really need me to explain color-coding to you?

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Are you saying that because he shoots a better % by the rim than from outside the paint, that is his bread and butter? Because if so, that is virtually every players bread and butter.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

They mostly camped out in the key.

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Exactly. Which completely destroys DPG21920's spacing argument.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

And winning with Horry was the norm since he played the most minutes of any big man outside of Duncan the last two finals wins.

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Don't disagree. Horry was a special player though. I think everybody here agrees with that.

Give the guy a chance, let him show what he's got If he can defend and rebound, he will definitly help. I don't think anyone expects him or anyone else to take Bonners scoring. That will have to come from others, my worst fear is that we will see more small ball.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Exactly. Which completely destroys DPG21920's spacing argument.



Don't disagree. Horry was a special player though. I think everybody here agrees with that.

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Yep thats why I said that the whole Pop's quest to find another Horry replacement will never end because he was one of a kind type of player. :lol

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Are you saying that because he shoots a better % by the rim than from outside the paint, that is his bread and butter? Because if so, that is virtually every players bread and butter.

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No, I'm saying that the RED zones are where he is most effective. That is his bread and butter. Which turns out to be way more inside the paint than outside of it.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

That's my definition as well, and exactly why I left out the sole 3 pointer he made. We're talking his bread and butter here, in other words, where's he's most effective. Which would be the zones marked with RED in that graph. Come on Chump, do you really need me to explain color-coding to you?

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Seriously? You're going to throw out 180 shots because they aren't the color you want them to be?

Whether you like them or not, he took those shots.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Exactly. Which completely destroys DPG21920's spacing argument.



Don't disagree. Horry was a special player though. I think everybody here agrees with that.

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No. Chump and I say that despite the fact those players did not space floor, it did not matter because Horry did and he played.

Then, when you take KG, Pau, Wallace into consideration it actually supports the argument.

You are taking one thing and attributing another thing to it when it does not apply.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

No, I'm saying that the RED zones are where he is most effective. That is his bread and butter. Which turns out to be way more inside the paint than outside of it.

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Everyone is more effective inside the paint for the most part. That does not mean it is their bread and butter. Bread and butter refers to what they go to most often, and in KG's case, that is the outside the paint jump shot.