McDonald: An opening for Haislip

So does spacing only apply to the center and power forward positions and not have anything to do with those who surround those positions; spacing-in-a-vacuum?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

That is not the point. It is about having the threat and ability to space the floor.

Spurs cannot just magically make good defensive big man appear out of no where. If that is the case, the offense has to have spacing in order to offset some defensive deficiencies.

These guys play along side Duncan. He needs space. It would be great to have someone else that can post up and play outside, but that is not the case. The real point is that you need guys that have the ability to space the floor. If Pau and KG could not do that, their teams would be much worse off. That is what makes the Lakers and the Celtics the best, they have those types of players.

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Doesnt Timmy have the ability to hit an outside Shot at a good rate just as much as paul or KG? Yet Paul plays with Bynum just fine. Timmy imo can spread the floor just as much if not more then a 3pt shooting big ever could.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Spacing.

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I know, I meant what did you mean by the comment. Do you not agree with the spacing philosophy? Horry has been mentioned, but to make a point about it not being simple "3-point" shooting, I am mentioning teams that have won titles with guys who have the ability to space the floor with their shooting such as Pau, KG, Wallace,...

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I know, I meant what did you mean by the comment. Do you not agree with the spacing philosophy? Horry has been mentioned, but to make a point about it not being simple "3-point" shooting, I am mentioning teams that have won titles with guys who have the ability to space the floor with their shooting such as Pau, KG, Wallace,...

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I do agree with the spacing argument; that's why I mentioned where Robinson and Rasho usually set up.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Please... Pau lives under the basket. He very rarely will take a 20 foot shot unless he absolutely has to. He's nothing like a player such as Dirk. KG will post up his man also, he just doesn't have a hook shot, and instead will take a turnaround jumper. Wallace did not shoot three pointers when they won it all in Detroit. Under Larry Brown, he was a complete post-up guy. Go look at the 2005 Finals tape and tell me how many threes he took in that series.

The reality is that while they obviously don't pile on each other, there's a huge difference between sitting your ass at the 3 point line and being within reach of the basket. Measurable difference.

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Once again, I said it is not about 3-point shooting. You keep going back to that presumably because of Bonner. That just so happens to be Bonner's game and range. But the Spurs like Dice, even though he does not shoot 3's because he has a reliable mid-range game amongst other things.

I agree you don't need a 3-PT shooter (from a big man perspective) to win, but it certainly helps offensive spacing when you have 2 bigs and one can spread the floor.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I know, I meant what did you mean by the comment. Do you not agree with the spacing philosophy? Horry has been mentioned, but to make a point about it not being simple "3-point" shooting, I am mentioning teams that have won titles with guys who have the ability to space the floor with their shooting such as Pau, KG, Wallace,...

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I find it hilarious you really think those guys are shooters... I mean, ALL of those guys operate within 10 feet of the basket. At least they all did when they won it all. Will they take a long shot here and there? Sure, just like TD does. But that's very far from their bread and butter, which is to backup their man inside the paint and finish.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

Doesnt Timmy have the ability to hit an outside Shot at a good rate just as much as paul or KG? Yet Paul plays with Bynum just fine. Timmy imo can spread the floor just as much if not more then a 3pt shooting big ever could.

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Yes, but unlike the other bigs on the Spurs, Tim also plays down low. His shooting from 15-20 feet has become more prevalent in recent years.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I agree you don't need a 3-PT shooter (from a big man perspective) to win, but it certainly helps offensive spacing when you have 2 bigs and one can spread the floor.

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This was easily solvable when we had Rasho and Nazr by simply calling the play and making sure players executed.

And, BTW. When we had Rasho/Nazr/Oberto/DRob, they all played weak side under the basket on 4-down. Plenty of spacing for Duncan to operate looks like. And they all could go for a putback.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I find it hilarious you really think those guys are shooters... I mean, ALL of those guys operate within 10 feet of the basket. At least they all did when they won it all. Will they take a long shot here and there? Sure, just like TD does. But that's very far from their bread and butter, which is to backup their man inside the paint and finish.

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http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

KG took way more shots outside the paint than he did in it.


Pau has taken a ton of shots at the rim, but that is more because of who he plays with. Still, point remains that if he did not have the ability to spread out, his game and the team would suffer.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And, BTW. When we had Rasho/Nazr/Oberto/DRob, they all played weak side under the basket on 4-down. Plenty of spacing for Duncan to operate looks like. And they all could go for a putback.

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So are you just comparing these guys with Bonner? Or do you disagree you need a big (whether or not he shoots 3's) to space the floor?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And, BTW. When we had Rasho/Nazr/Oberto/DRob, they all played weak side under the basket on 4-down.

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Rasho definitely played above the free throw line during that play. Playing under the basket would pretty much guarantee a two-big double team on Duncan.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Yes, but unlike the other bigs on the Spurs, Tim also plays down low. His shooting from 15-20 feet has become more prevalent in recent years.

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Exactly why I think spurs should give up trying to find a 3pt outside shooting Big and go with a defencive one. KG and Paul can shoot outside yes but they also post down low, but the still manage to be able to do this just fine with a low post only player such as Bynum and Perkens.

You yourself were using these players as an example. If Paul can spread the floor and still do his low post thing even alongside of a lowpost player then so can Tim.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

Exactly why I think spurs should give up trying to find a 3pt outside shooting Big and go with a defencive one. KG and Paul can shoot outside yes but they also post down low, but the still manage to be able to do this just fine with a low post only player such as Bynum and Perkens.

You yourself were using these players as an example. If Paul can spread the floor and still do his low post thing even alongside of a lowpost player then so can Tim.

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Where do you find these players that can do what KG/Pau/Wallace...do? Just because Bonner cannot post up effectively does not mean that his abilities aren't helpful. He shoots the 3 at an extremely high percentage and that is the best thing in basketball offensively.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

KG took way more shots outside the paint than he did in it.

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http://i49.tinypic.com/34zhte0.png

Come again?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Pau has taken a ton of shots at the rim, but that is more because of who he plays with. Still, point remains that if he did not have the ability to spread out, his game and the team would suffer.

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Bynum?

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Originally Posted by Chomag

You yourself were using these players as an example. If Paul can spread the floor and still do his low post thing even alongside of a lowpost player then so can Tim.

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Of course, usually that is done as a high pick for Parker or Manu. If you are really arguing that Duncan needs to turn into DRob circa 1999, then who is going to be Duncan from that time?

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

So are you just comparing these guys with Bonner? Or do you disagree you need a big (whether or not he shoots 3's) to space the floor?

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I disagree that Tim requires a jump shooter big next to him in order to be able to operate in the paint, something that overused these days.
I further argue that is a detriment to the team to have a guy cannot rebound and defend inside the paint at a good rate.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Where do you find these players that can do what KG/Pau/Wallace...do? Just because Bonner cannot post up effectively does not mean that his abilities aren't helpful. He shoots the 3 at an extremely high percentage and that is the best thing in basketball offensively.

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What player can we find? How about a player named TD?

The 3 pointer is not the most effective thing in offense. The 3pt shoot is actually the lowest % shot to take in the game.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

http://i49.tinypic.com/34zhte0.png

Come again?

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Did you not look at the chart? He shot just as much from outside as inside.

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Bynum?

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Kobe

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Rasho definitely played above the free throw line during that play. Playing under the basket would pretty much guarantee a two-big double team on Duncan.

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True. I'm thinking Oberto and Nazr. Oberto being the one recipient of many bunnies when the two bigs doubled.

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Originally Posted by Chomag

What player can we find? How about a player named TD?

The 3 pointer is not the most effective thing in offense. The 3pt shoot is actually the lowest % shot to take in the game.

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Once again, if you take Duncan out, who goes in? Who takes Tim's place?

I did not say the 3-pointer is the most effective thing. I said that having someone who shoots the three at a very high rate is the most effective and efficient thing in offense.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

http://i49.tinypic.com/34zhte0.png

Come again?

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279 > 158

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Bynum?

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Odom, if we are talking about big men.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

True. I'm thinking Oberto and Nazr. Oberto being the one recipient of many bunnies when the two bigs doubled.

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Not that many. I also do remember Nazr's parking in the key and at least trying to catapult in jumpers from there. Of course, Malik sat out there a lot too.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Did you not look at the chart? He shot 279 shots from outside the paint compared to 158 inside. That is more.

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You don't see what is KG's bread and butter in that chart? We already argued that he will take the occasional long shot.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Kobe

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We're talking big man spacing here. If you want to move the goalposts, then we can do that too.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Of course, usually that is done as a high pick for Parker or Manu. If you are really arguing that Duncan needs to turn into DRob circa 1999, then who is going to be Duncan from that time?

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Just becuase it's something Tim is used to does not mean he can't do it without. IMO Tim's game such as KG and Paul as an example would be just fine even if there is not a 3pt or an outside threat shooting big with him to spread the floor. Since Tim spreads the floor better himself then anyone else on this team.