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- Richard Jefferson
- Luis Scola
- Derek Anderson
- Hedo Turkoglu
- Steve Smith
- Nick Van Gangsta
- Jackie Butler
- Antonio McDyess
- Beno Udrih
- Ian Mahinmi
- Chucky Brown
- Damon Stoudamire
- Ime Udoka
- Drew Gooden
- Terry Porter
- Kurt Thomas
Honorable mention: The Malik Rose extension
:downspin:
RJ is looking particularly damaging. He just is not a good fit with this team and his contract is ridiculously high to absorb this kind of awful defense. Shame about Scola...Jackie Butler, I forgot about him! I wonder where he is these days.
a little too easy and unfair to bring players that everyone thought they would work (including RJ and Dice, who haven't even say their last words).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChillFactor
some others were very cheap so were worth the try even if with few chances to work (stoudemire, NVE, maybe even Gooden considering he was one of the only bigs avaible then and for just 6 months...)
Luis Scola, Ian are the ones where i really can't see why Pop has handled/handles the situation like he did/does.
i know what you're saying but all these guys were supposed to do much better than they did. i don't know how you leave RJ and mcdyess off the list given what i've seen through 1/2 a season. especially w/ RJ's contract....
I think people over rate Scola. When a player is on another team you tend to take note of his obvious strengths and ignore his flaws. He's pretty much a poor man's David West and a homeless man's Carlos Boozer/Zach Randolph. Nice stats, but undersized, no length, mediocre defense, zero interior prescence on defense. He would solve very few of our problems.
Having said that, i would take him over McDyess in a heart beat who really doesnt do much of anything.
#5....Did you mean Charles Smith? He was I think Pop's first big trade and we got this crippled stiff with 3 years and $30 million left on his contraact.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChillFactor
Ya right....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Peterson
No way we can have that line-up...that's the case when small ball (or even a decent small forward) would kill us in an hartbeat...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chieflion
IMHO the correct line-up should be :
Parker - Hill - Jefferson - Mahinmi - Duncan
then Ginobili - Mason (Hairston) - Blair (Bonner) - Mc Dyess
Reasons :
1) we need two 7 footers starting
2) Parker probably trust his french friend
3) that line-up should be very good for an up tempo style
4) Gino works usually well with Blair
5) our bench, this way, looks incredibly solid
6) we need to try something different
I remember plenty of people here were looking forward to the development of Jackie Butler, myself included. I still think it's a really big shame he didn't work out.
Tim Duncan, Manu, Tony, Bowen, Hill, Blair, Brent Barry, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis, Rasho, Oberto, Speedy all more then make up for any bad moves. I trust the Spurs judgment when it comes to talent. I do not trust pop as an in game adjustment coach. He sticks with the same plan and sadly this year, that plan is to have one player bring the ball up dribble for 15 seconds before making either a bad pass or a couple of bad passes and have someone shoot a bad three pointer.
Other coaches would find a way to incorporate Jefferson's skills into the game. He has them, we know he has them at a championship capacity as he was a major factor in those NJ Nets teams.
It is so amussing for people who want to blame RJ for the Spurs problems. Has he played great? No, but he has played as good or better than Bowen when you look at both sides of the ball. Where RJ is struggling is the switch back anf forth from small forward and power forward. It is screwing his game up just like Mason lost his game last year when Pop tried to run him at the point. Pop is an excellent x and o coach, but his constaint desire to have players play out of position makes everyone one step slow on rotation or in moving the ball, not to mention the scarifice that happens on the boards.
Pops greatest roster fail happened when he first got here.
The San Antonio Spurs, in an effort to fill the void left at the power forward position, recently acquired Charles Smith and Monty Williams from the New York Knicks in a trade for J. R. Reid, Brad Lohaus and a 1996 first-round draft choice.
The Spurs were in first place of the Midwest Division at All-Star break, but were still missing a consistent power forward since Dennis Rodman was traded to the Bulls at the start of the season.
The starters last night looked good. As the game progressed, the Rockets were killing us both in the paint and on the perimeter. Tim seemed alone on defense on the interior. Their smalls were getting anywhere they wanted and dishing it out for open looks most the 2nd half. I wonder, when we are getting owned in the paint, why none of our bigs are getting to play. Is Ian too inexperienced to work into the system? His youth, length, athleticism, and energy seem to be something we need. Tim can't defend the basket by himself.
Didn't Pop also deliver a "thank you" contract to AJ post '99 that turned out to be a cockup?
i'm beginning to think letting go of drew gooden will rank among the top. who would've known jefferson wouldn't be playing as good as he could.
Losing DA was one of the best things to ever happen to the team. DA would score 16 for you, but he'd give up 25 on the defensive end. His defense made Udoka or Manu look like Scottie Pippen. Plus, I can't imagine the Spurs being able to bring Manu in with Anderson in the mix.
If Pops name was Hill he would have been fired allready.
Every single word of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by venitian navigator
porter played well if i recall
no more small ball damnit
dont forget the spurs were trying all these players out while staying UNDER the cap, while other teams were throwing loads of money at the higher prospects.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChillFactor
additions
Finley extension 2007-
Rasho overpay
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by mystargtr34
Scola overrated?
Sorry, but how the Spurs dealt with Scola probably cost them at least one title.
The key to Scola wasn't in his respectable rebounding (which has been better in the NBA), his savvy scoring around the basket like a supercharged Oberto, his solid mid-range jumper, and his offensive and defensive craftiness . . .
It was the fact that as a continuously contending team, the Spurs had limited opportunities to get good players as the years went on. They were consistently drafting towards the end of the first round, they were out of capspace, they didn't have any young players signed to use as trade bait . . . they were in a routine of signing guys in their 30s (Barry, Vaughn, NVE, Oberto, Elson) or young unproven guys (Fattie Butler).
The miraculous thing about Scola was that here was one of the top players in Europe, in his mid-20s, and the Spurs had his exclusive rights! Not only that, but he would be cheap, he was publicly asking for a 3 year deal between 9-10 million! That was insane! That a team always up against the cap had a useful piece right in their grasp for so cheap . . . the Spurs were freaking lucky.
Add to that the built-in 'corporate knowledge' due to him having a rapport with Manu. And Tim Duncan being his favorite player. And little things like him and Splitter being so close that a son was named after the other, that could have come in handy with trying to lure Splitter over the first time.
But the Spurs pissed it all away. They had a legit big-time rotation big man with multiple, legit skills who did all the little things people associate with being a winner right in their hands for cheap and they blew it.
They blew it so bad it warped the minds of kool-aid drinking Spurs fans. To this day people believe the anti-Scola trash leaked to the media and invented their own to build upon it. Go back and read the Scola threads and view a mass hysteria of buffoonery as people didn't only just claim Scola was overrated or too small, but sputtered garbage like "Scola demands to start! But we have Tim Duncan, he's our PF!" or "Scola is demanding the full MLE! That bastard!" and other nonsense. Meanwhile Scola signs for less than the MLE and humbly comes off the bench at the start of his Rockets career. lol
And let's not forget the entirely bizarre line-in-the-sand . . . an insane insistence that giving 3/9-10 was unacceptable because it would have made Scola the 'highest paid second rounder in history'. It was so strange, it was like insisting that the Spurs shouldn't pay Scola more than the minimum because that would set a precedent of making him the highest paid player with long, greasy hair.
But the Spurs had a piece right in their grasp, for cheap, and they blew it. That's a huge roster fail and honest history books will reflect that.
Because the other players on the list mostly . . . were desperation moves. They were reaching, hoping for a move to work out. Derek Anderson, desperate and were lucky to get him on the 1-year deal. Steve Smith, desperation move when Anderson wanted to go to Portland. Hedo Turkoglu, last minute reaction to not wanting to pay Stephen Jackson. Richard Jefferson, last-hurrah reaction to being rolled in the first round. Kurt Thomas, desperation trade to counter the Lakers. McDyess, last hurrah attempt at a big man (makes more than Scola!). NVE, Stoudamire, Gooden, short term desperation. All desperate moves, but because of that they couldn't be held too much against the front office. Their backs were against the wall, some move had to be made, they made them.
Scola wasn't.
There's one helluva lot of revisionist history in that list. :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by TheChillFactor
I'm disappointed in Jefferson, but when you get him for nothing, is that really a bad trade?
Scola was clearly a financial decision and thus out of Pop's hands. He wasn't traded for lack of talent or fit, he was traded to avoid the lux tax.
The Anderson decision turned out to be a great one.
Turk crapped his pants in the 2004 playoffs and only became what he is today in 2007. At the time, he had to go.
Dice has been here half a season - he's been disappointing, but it's premature to judge him at this point.
Udrih??? He nearly lost us the title in 2005, and after he was traded in 2007 we went on to win it all. How was that a bad move?
Most of the rest of those guys were vet min pickups. So what?
I think the personnel department of the Spurs (which goes well beyond Pop) has done a mostly excellent job over the last decade.
Scola is not Pop's fault-- blame RC & Holt. Pop did not want him traded to the Rockets.
Lets rank Pops roster Triumphs?
1. Tim Duncan
2. Tony Parker
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Robert Horry
5. Bruce Bowen
6. DeJuan Blair
7. George Hill
8. Roger Mason Jr.
Not bad considering that excluding Tim Duncan, no player drafted by the Spurs above is higher then George Hill at whatever he was? 25? 26? Others coming from FA and Trade. Thanks Pop :)
EDIT: Probably left out a fair few and got the rankings all wrong but I'm just making the point that if your going to come down hard on Pop with the bad stuff, remember the vast quantities of good!!
Im sorry but Luis Scola is not the difference between a champion and an also-ran. Not even close IMO. He's a fine player, and he would help the Spurs win a few more games with his craftiness and intangibles. But drawing a charge, or coming up with a loose ball here or there arent going to stop the Lakers/Celtics/Cavs scoring 50+ points in the paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Yeah, a 15 & 9 guy with solid defense, a dependable jumper, and a track record as a winner couldn't have helped the Spurs get past the Mavs in 06.
And let's not forget that against the Lakers last year in a 7 game series, Scola had 4 double doubles and was a big reason why the Rockets were able to get 7 games in the second round.
And has career playoff averages over 3 rounds of 14 and 9. Against teams who had solid bigs, like the Lakers, the Blazers and Jazz.
Yeah, a 6'9" legit PF in his athletic prime like that wouldn't have made a difference.
Compared to what the Spurs had, old busted guys like Oberto and KT, and of course Matt Bonner, who disappeared against Dallas except the one game the Spurs won and of course Bonner didn't do a thing in that game until Parker singlehandedly got the Spurs a double digit lead and they never looked back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
The Scola 'debacle' im talking about is trading him to Houston - not the fact the Spurs cuoldnt/wouldnt sign him earlier, so i wont comment on series before 2007 like the Dallas one. If the Spurs were to beat either of the two best teams in the league since then, the Celtics or Lakers, they need a big who has some interior prescence on defense, or who will allow the Spurs to matchup with Perkins/Garnett or Bynum/Gasol on both ends.
In last years series against Dallas, without Manu the Spurs arent over turning a 4-1 series loss into a series win and going on to the championship because of Luis Scola. Perhaps in the 2008 Lakers series it goes to 6 games, but i highly doubt the Spurs beat that Lakers team with Manu at 30%.
Maybe the team wins more games during the course of the regular season and gets a better playoff seed or what not, my point is that trading Luis Scola did not cost the team the championship. Im not saying he isnt a good player, or wouldnt have made the team better, just that he is not the difference between 4-1 exits in the Conference Finals and First Round, and winning a championship.
We obviously have very different opinions on how good Luis Scola is. I guess we'll never know.
First, they could have signed Scola earlier, such as in 2006 when they gambled 3 million a year on a proven 3rd string caliber 30 year old center in Elson and 2.5 million a year on a fat, slow, coat-swiping youngster that Larry Brown played during games because that's how Larry Brown rolls. And I believe they could have had him as early as summer 05.Quote:
Originally Posted by mystargtr34
Regardless, if we're just talking about summer 07 and the period after his being traded, that brings me to the Lakers series.
The Lakers only had one big man, Gasol, plus Odom. And in last year's playoffs, without Yao for half the series, Scola had to go against a front line with both Gasol AND Bynum. And he had a hell of a series.
Spurs only had to take on Gasol, and maybe Odom. Hell the Lakers were starting Radmanovic in the frontcourt. That's a weak lineup compared to what Houston faced with Bynum, Gasol, and Ariza.
So yeah, I think Scola's performances would have been great compared to what the Spurs had . . . starting Oberto all series and getting 3 and 3. Two of those losses were close, one by 2 and one by 4. And the Spurs would have finished off NO earlier the round before so maybe the Spurs would have had something left in the tank for LA in addition to Scola logging time instead of Oberto, and more than Bonner, who while making almost the exact same amount as Scola played about 3 minutes that series, adding to his legendary playoff performances where his +/- stats couldn't overcome playoff basketball.
Before the trade or after, the Scola debacle deserves it's own chapter in Spurs history, it's more than a footnote; it mattered.
They blew it on Scola. I watch Houston a lot and he does a lot of the things that is making their small ball go: Rebounds, scoring, blocking out, passing and his defense isn't spectacular blocks but crafty positioning.
Wish we had him right now instead of Dice.
I've been saying the same thing for the last 2 years. It'll never happen though. The coach is a micro-managing idiot. And as a result these players will continue to play in a different array of line-ups (with inconsistent minutes) and never develop any true cohesiveness with each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Peterson
WGAF about past roster mistakes? We should all be much more concerned with his coaching and lineup blunders, because those are fixable. The guys that are here should be able to play well.
LOL, Jackie Butler fail is obviously the biggest fail. It led directly to the Scola fail.
Everything else is fairly minor. And it's too soon to judge RJ and McDyess.
Yeah, Jackie Butler was a huge domino. Wasn't he a Larry Brown recommendation?Quote:
Originally Posted by doobs
I hate when people keep bringing up RJ's contract when it's the only reason why we were able to get someone like him for the pieces we gave up
YEP, and I never missed him since Manu came here, at all. Stephen Jackson was better too, especially in the playoffs that one year. Pop has made some great ones too that netted titles, lets not forget that FANS! He is not ALL bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
I agree, people overrated him as the next coming in here for so long I can just laugh now. I think Blair can be near that, or given his age even better one day...........Quote:
Originally Posted by mystargtr34
His greatest triumph is in keeping Tim Duncan here in 2000, but Bowen for the vet minimum, Bill Curley for Sean Elliott, and rescuing the careers of Malik Rose and Stephen Jackson from the trash heap and making them into playoff heroes were all pretty impressive moves too. I'd say Pop's roster work has been greatly unbalanced in the direction of being a net positive for the Spurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosdef17
This. I'd also add Charlie Ward and Ron Mercer as fails.Quote:
Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle
What about other coaches/GMs?
Isiah Thomas - Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Quentin Richardson, Zach Randolph, Jerome James, Jared Jeffries
Joe Dumars - Allen Iverson. Period.
I could go on. Like someone mentioned earlier, how many players did the spurs steal in the draft? Manu, Tony, Hill, Blair, maybe Malik. Bowen was an underrated signing at the time. Pop has passed more than he failed at acquiring players. Lately it's just a matter of how hes using them.
We love Scola so so much.
"Because the other players on the list mostly . . . were desperation moves. They were reaching, hoping for a move to work out. Derek Anderson, desperate and were lucky to get him on the 1-year deal. Steve Smith, desperation move when Anderson wanted to go to Portland. Hedo Turkoglu, last minute reaction to not wanting to pay Stephen Jackson. Richard Jefferson, last-hurrah reaction to being rolled in the first round. Kurt Thomas, desperation trade to counter the Lakers. McDyess, last hurrah attempt at a big man (makes more than Scola!). NVE, Stoudamire, Gooden, short term desperation. All desperate moves, but because of that they couldn't be held too much against the front office. Their backs were against the wall, some move had to be made, they made them."
The deal the spurs offered Jackson was bigger than the one ATL made him actually, he signed with ATL after a an issue with that offer being relayed to Jackson from his agent before he inked the deal in Atlanta. I think Pop was wrong for not showing serious interest in him sooner. That was a big mistake, and then his replacement turned out to be pretty damn good in Turkoglu, but he was let go as well. As for the Scola issue thats the kind of risk you take with these foreign guys. It's a gamble with the euro contracts being more generous than NBA rookie deals, most of these guys would rather play in euro leagues, get paid more, and usually be stars over there right away. It would have been nice to buy out that contract, but it was just too much. Thats why I like the Blair draft that much more, finally an American player without that risk factor. I'd say one of his best choices on personnel was Derek Anderson, he stayed pat on his negotiations and look how he turned out..never really heard much about him after he left.
Oh the irony...Quote:
Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle
Udrih won two rings with the Spurs, who haven't won shit since they traded him you dumbass.Quote:
Udrih??? He nearly lost us the title in 2005, and after he was traded in 2007 we went on to win it all. How was that a bad move?
But now that you mention I guess Pop made bad moves in several ways:
- apparently Pop made a rookie so important he'd be solely responsible for the loss in the 2005 finals
- Pop screws Beno's mentally weak head with signing Nick the quick miss Van Exel
- Pop trades Beno and begins the Spurs decay as Spurs don't win anymore championships
:lol
Maybe they don't have good schools in Slovenia, but here in the US they teach you to never confuse correlation and causation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pero
Did you watch game 3? He single-handedly lost it for the Spurs in the third quarter with his rash of turnovers late when Parker needed a couple of minutes rest. Lindsey Hunter was all over him like stupid is on that horrible analysis you posted. The damage was done within about 3 possessions that game. Pop pulled his ass quick, but the damage was done.Quote:
But now that you mention I guess Pop made bad moves in several ways:
- apparently Pop made a rookie so important he'd be solely responsible for the loss in the 2005 finals
How is that a negative? Beno showed he was worthless and could not be depended on, so Pop was forced to sign someone else and hope he could do the job that Udrih showed unequivocally that he was completely incapable of handling. The fact that he went and signed a guy with horrible knees so bad he previously had to take a year off from the league should tell you all you need to know about Udrih's maturity and work ethic in San Antonio. But if you don't believe it, you should listen to his interview with hoopsworld(?) after skipping a second training camp in a row.Quote:
- Pop screws Beno's mentally weak head with signing Nick the quick miss Van Exel
This is hilarious. Udrih's contribution to the 05 title was clearly negative. His contribution to the 07 ring was also, considering his complete inability to hit an open shot and his beyond pathetic shooting percentage of 36.9%.Quote:
- Pop trades Beno and begins the Spurs decay as Spurs don't win anymore championships
To think a player could get 13 minutes a night at the NBA level in 73 games while shooting 36.9% and yet his coach is being unfair is beyond stupidity and more in line with complete delusion. I mean, a fucking title contender gave minutes to someone whose field goal percentage was in line with the absolute worst seasons ever recorded by a rotation player, and the coach is a bad guy for playing him when he clearly did not earn any of those.
Even worse is to think a guy who got fat and badmouthed the team, blaming it for all his shortcomings, should have gotten minutes when not producing. Udrih needed to grow the fuck up when he was in San Antonio, which is why no one offered the Spurs so much as a second-round pick in exchange in trade. The funniest thing is now Sacramento regrets having him as much as the Spurs did.
Scola was a disaster any way you look at it. The Spurs gave away what would have been the best big since the Admiral to play alongside Duncan.
In view of our other successes, it was an out of character, bush-league move by our FO.
After one year, Horry looked like a COMPLETE fail. He wasn't, and was a key piece to two championships, so it's probably too soon to drop the hammer on RJ and Dice. Scola was never on the roster, so he can't be Pop's fail. Butler, Udrih, Brown, and Udoka were all dirt cheap. Those are the exact type of players you take a flyer with. Sometimes, they don't work out, sometimes (Rose, Jack, Devin Brown) they do. Gooden and Damon S. were in season, partial year rentals. They get an Incomplete, in my book. I'm not sure how you categorize Terry Porter as a failure. He came in and played well as the bridge between AJ and Parker. Perusing his stats, he shot about 43% and 42% from downtown, and was a steady hand at the helm. Not sure what you're looking for for $2-3M per season.
Nobody bats 1.000, dude.
Let's do the successes and finds, too.
Manu
Tony
Hill
Blair
Rose *
Jaren J *
Jack
Bowen
Horry
Mason
Mario Elie
Antonio Daniels
Steve Kerr
Speedy
Brent Barry
Findog
*first contract
Not re-signing Stephen Jackson was the worst mistake this front office made. They probably win 2004 and 2006 with him.
Jackson and his agent blew that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch Cumsteen
Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Baseline bum I won't read your ridiculously serious reply to my post because it's misplaced as I wasn't serious (I thought it was clear they weren't serious arguments, but I guess not). I only replied like that to Ruff's mistake because I was cranky after just 3 hours of sleep.
Oh and sorry for calling you a dumbass Ruff.
Not saying Scola is a scrub, because he would be a valuable player in the rotation, but seriously. You Scola apologists need to accept the fact that he is getting an opportunity in Houston without TMac and Yao around to be a major focal point. Between him, Landry, Brooks and Ariza it is the Role Player Leading The Team In Scoring flavor of the day. That he is taking advantage of that opportunity is a great thing for him; however, you can't translate his performance for the Rockets into what he would do for every other team.
Incidentally, his month over month stats for both rebounding (10.5 to 7.4) and assists (2.2 to 1.7) have declined since the season started in November, all while playing the same minutes every month (between 31.5-31.8). Simply put, all that "craftiness" and "savvy" of weakside offensive rebounds, famous Argentinian flopping and decent midrange jumper don't translate well into having to be The Guy for your team night in and night out.
Integral part? Yes. Would I love for him to be in the Spurs rotation? Yes. Is he the reason the Spurs haven't won a title the last two years? Hell no. He is not even a saviour for a Rockets team that is made up of all role/bench players. How was he supposed to be the saviour for the Spurs?
The Scola give away was the worst. Not that he would have been a savior, but he could have been a solid piece. I would have loved to see three players from the Argentine National team playing for the Spurs. I also like, as someone mentioned, the Splitter signing angle with Scola on board. I wonder if the Spurs/Scola issue has effected or will effect the Spurs/Splitter signing.
The thing that bothers me the most about Scola is at least send him out of the conference.
Also, on the whole Scola trade "debacle"..lets not just throw Pop under the bus completley for that one, the player they traded for wasnt exactly a bum..Spanoulis (sp?) was a damn good looking prospect at PG at that time, and if you watch his Euro/World play highlights, I think if he decided to play here he would have made us think less of the trade..he is a natural PG and playmaker, his passing would have been a great change up to Parker. Again it just goes back to the risk in taking players that get paid MILLIONS more in europe than here.
Were the Spurs ever really interested in having him on the team?Quote:
Originally Posted by TwelveGs210
I always thought they were giving up a player they were having a hard time getting over here (Scola) and taking a player they didn't need (V-Span) in order to get rid of a player/contract they didn't want (Butler).
I dont remember..your probably right..Even if he was an american player I'm sure Pop would have taken the usual approach and show minimal interest in the player. At that time we needed a backup PG, im thinking that Pop agreed to bring in V-Span hoping to at least give him a chance to be the back-up PG, but in the Euro's he's the Greek "Steve Nash" no way hes playing here for pennies on the dollar when he goes there and lives the superstar life.
It's been 25 minutes since you posted his name. I thought for sure that KBP would have had his search engines giving him the red alert by now and he would be firing up the Greek "Name A Superstar" post about V-Span.Quote:
Originally Posted by TwelveGs210
lmao..who is this KBP guy? Is he one of our Euro talent "experts"? I remember the dumbass guy who had a new "Euro" savior post every other day, i dont remember his name, but last i saw Borousis (sp?) was the spurs supposed lastest "jesus Christ".