Some thoughts on Tony Parker

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Originally Posted by Brazil

I didn't want to start a thread for that but just to put things into perspective regarding the number of assists that is for me a quite overated stat. Assists are linked to the ability of the PG of course but also it is a ratio very linked to a team and the way you run the Offense.

Look at Collison stat when he is starting, last two games he dished 32 assists !! I've seen him he is no CP3 he is good but not that good. So if he can put this kind of number I suppose TP assists will increase too in this kind of team.

Don't get me wrong, CP3 is a great player and the best PG in the league but the difference between him and a guy like TP is thinner than most people believe. CP3 is also a product of a system, put him in the spurs system and his stats will be lower than today.

To sum up TP is fitting very well in the spurs system, talks about trading him are mostly stupid.

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Man, I think CP3 is overrated. Everyone keeps saying oh he is so good, he is the best and so much better than TP or any other PG, they say just look at his stats and his numbers he is putting up, they are way higher. Well I don't think he is.

Everything involves around him on his team, everything goes to, from and thru CP3. Everything is created for him, he is the main point of his team. Of course his stats are so high. If you would put CP3 in the Spurs or another team with a different style and with more quality players on their own, his numbers would decrease significantly and he would be very disappointing, from what people see from him now. In this situation stats do not mean that much as many think.

What you are saying is true, ive said it also before couple times recently, many on here made me ridiculous because I made these statements. If you would put TP on such a team, well TP's numbers and stats would increase drastically, TP would also put such numbers up every night.

But that's the thing, TP can't do that with the Spurs, he does not have such a role on the team, not everyone involves around him. And I think TP even will do and does a better job than if CP3 would've joined a team like the Spurs, because TP can create more on his own, he is better in penetrating to the basket and he is not so dependent on the rest, and what other players all create and set it out for him.

Im not saying CP3 sucks, because he doesnt, he is a great player of course, but overrated and the big reason for his amazing stats are because of his role on his team. That doesnt mean he is so much better than TP or other PG's.

Currently the only PG I would love running the spurs other then TP is Dwilliams, that is a pipe dream however.

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Originally Posted by romain.star

that's, IMO, the most relevant point of this thread

Does TP have what it takes to turn into a good 3 pts shooter when he is in his 30s?

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I think that if Tony can take 1 or 2 summers working on his J, the same way he did a couple years ago with Chip, there are no reason he can't be a good 3 pts shooter!
Each time he had time to work on a specific aspect of his game, he has shown great improvement in that area...

IMO the only option he has if he wants to keep improving, is stoping the French NT...

And you know what, I don't think it would be a bad thing for the french NT either!!!
We have a lot of young talent that would whave to step up, and a talented young PG in Diot...

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Originally Posted by Pauleta14

I think that if Tony can take 1 or 2 summers working on his J, the same way he did a couple years ago with Chip, there are no reason he can't be a good 3 pts shooter!
Each time he had time to work on a specific aspect of his game, he has shown great improvement in that area...

IMO the only option he has if he wants to keep improving, is stoping the French NT...

And you know what, I don't think it would be a bad thing for the french NT either!!!
We have a lot of young talent that would whave to step up, and a talented young PG in Diot...

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Yeah, he worked pretty hard on that back then and he did it good, too bad we dont see it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

Again TP with the stop/steal/deflection in crunchtime doesn't ring many bells.

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You should watch again the last play of game 5 in 2005, after Horry nailed the dagger...
Tony was guarding Rip hamilton who could have won the game and change the (his)story...

I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

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LOL
Fact? Really? How do you rationalize that? By All-Star appearances?
What's the criteria? Honest question...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

LOL
Fact? Really? How do you rationalize that? By All-Star appearances?
What's the criteria? Honest question...

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So who would you put ahead of Parker?

Honest question...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

So who would you put ahead of Parker?

Honest question...

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I'd like to see Parker's entire career before I place it anywhere in a Spurs's best scale...

Right now, I would argue Sean Elliott to be number 4, and Manu and Parker fairly equal on number 5...

I think what happens with Tony and Manu careers down the road will influence that too...

Bottom line is, there's no FACT. It's all opinion...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Right now, I would argue Sean Elliott to be number 4, and Manu and Parker fairly equal on number 5...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

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LOL, you call people TOO BLINDED???

You claim things as facts, but you can't present any facts to backup your claims...

I love Tony Parker. I think he's the best PG the Spurs ever had.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I've given up talking about TP on ST for years. Some of the posters are way too blinded by their hate to have an objective opinion.

Now, all the haters have to deal with a fact: Parker is the 4th best Spur ever behind Gervin, Robinson and Duncan.

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So true.

As for being the 4th best ever Spur, yeah he is.

But this is very likely to turn into a Parker vs. Manu thread again :lol

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Originally Posted by ElNono

LOL, you call people TOO BLINDED???

You claim things as facts, but you can't present any facts to backup your claims...

I love Tony Parker. I think he's the best PG the Spurs ever had.

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Do you really need facts to prove that Parker is ahead of Ginobili as a Spur?
It's pretty obvious.

Let's go, fact 1:

Points as a Spur:
1. George Gervin* 23602
2. David Robinson* 20790
3. Tim Duncan 20095
4. Tony Parker 10894
5. James Silas 10290
6. Mike Mitchell 9799
7. Sean Elliott 9659
8. Larry Kenon 8248
9. Manu Ginobili 7573
10. Avery Johnson 6486

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks :lol




P.S.

I don't even need to respond to Parker2112. The Nuggets did that job for me, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Do you really need facts to prove that Parker is ahead of Ginobili as a Spur?
It's pretty obvious.

Let's go, fact 1:

Points as a Spur:
1. George Gervin* 23602
2. David Robinson* 20790
3. Tim Duncan 20095
4. Tony Parker 10894
5. James Silas 10290
6. Mike Mitchell 9799
7. Sean Elliott 9659
8. Larry Kenon 8248
9. Manu Ginobili 7573
10. Avery Johnson 6486

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I asked you what criteria you used. You could have said TP has more All Star appearances. Or TP scored more points, like you just did.
Instead, you call me a hater, because you don't want to discuss this at all.

You simply are the exact same thing you accused me of being: You're a Tony Parker cheerleader, which is absolutely no different than being in Church of Manu fan.

I personally think that when you rank people like that you need to take into account a bunch of different things, including who were fan favorites, and who identified with the franchise the longest too. That's why Sean Elliott has his jersey retired, but not Mike Mitchell. In that vein, I think if Parker sticks with the Spurs, he will probably be number 4 when all is said and done. If he bolts to the Lakers, plays 6 years there and wins 3 rings then I'm not so sure. Same thing if Manu goes away this summer.

This is it. No hating, just exchanging opinions. I know you can do it.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Uh oh. This thread could lead to fireworks :lol

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:lol I know... I'm trying to go easy on it...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

So who would you put ahead of Parker?

Honest question...

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Manu > Tony 75% of Spurs know that, the thing is Ginobili has played a lot less time for this franchise than Parker so yes it's fair to say that Parker will have a better career as a Spur than Manu.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I asked you what criteria you used. You could have said TP has more All Star appearances. Or TP scored more points, like you just did.
Instead, you call me a hater, because you don't want to discuss this at all.

You simply are the exact same thing you accused me of being: You're a Tony Parker cheerleader, which is absolutely no different than being in a Church of Manu fan.

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Well, I'm not a Tony cheerleader.
Now, I don't see how interesting to enter in a discussion that shouldn't exist.

Do you have any legit points that show that Manu should be ranked ahead of Parker?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I personally think that when you rank people like that you need to take into account a bunch of different things, including who were fan favorites, and who identified with the franchise the longest too.

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Well, "fan favorite" is quite a BS way to rank players.

Personally I don't give a shit to know if Manu is better than TP or not. This debate is useless time will tell. Now what it is pissing me off is the recurrent: TP is not a real PG, he is selfish, he is shooting too much, TP for Jose Calderon b/s, in D he is as bad as bonner and with 6 / 7 assists he is not a real PG when freaking Collison is putting 32 assists in two games for NO. Man Collison is da man, the new Steve Nash, if he keeps on putting such numbers you can bet we will see a trade parker for Collison thread.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Do you have any legit points that show that Manu should be ranked ahead of Parker?

Well, "fan favorite" is quite a BS way to rank players.

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Most jerseys sold? Same amount of NBA titles riding TD's coattails?
I don't think there's a non-BS, non-opinionated way to rank players. Which brings me back to your 'fact' claim. Both Manu and Tony will have their jerseys retired by the Spurs when their careers are over, I'm 100% sure of that. And they both would have equally contributed to the success in the Duncan era.
Tony has the possibility to go past that and have an era of his own. We'll see how that pans out. Until then, I don't think you can really put their careers into perspective as far as Spurs greats are concerned. And honestly, I couldn't care less who ranks higher than the other.

I'll tell you that those who DO care, are more concerned with the cheerleading than with the franchise.

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way. Its not so much the assist that are the problem with Parker, Its how he gets them. Last season Parker averaged 7ast a game, thats only 1-2 ast a night shy of what Calderon/Kidd/Rondo averaged who were in the top 5 last season. However its the way he got those assist thats the problem this day an age. Parker can drive and kick to shooters all night, and probably average 10ast a game doing it. However If you put non-shooters on the floor with him he becomes extremely limited in the halfcourt and limits others in transition. Blair/Hill/RJ dont work to well with him cause their not natural spot-up shooters. However when you throw Manu in the mix, Blair gets layups/Hill and RJ get good looks in transition and the team game becomes better. In the Nuggets game Ginobili didnt have a great scoring game, but he handed out 9ast and kept the ball moving. Parkers 9ast compared to Manu's 9ast are completely different.

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Originally Posted by portnoy1

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way.

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:lol @ Sadly

:lmao

:smchode:

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Originally Posted by portnoy1

Parker is what he is. Sadly I think the spurs FO/Pop kinda made him that way. Its not so much the assist that are the problem with Parker, Its how he gets them. Last season Parker averaged 7ast a game, thats only 1-2 ast a night shy of what Calderon/Kidd/Rondo averaged who were in the top 5 last season. However its the way he got those assist thats the problem this day an age. Parker can drive and kick to shooters all night, and probably average 10ast a game doing it. However If you put non-shooters on the floor with him he becomes extremely limited in the halfcourt and limits others in transition. Blair/Hill/RJ dont work to well with him cause their not natural spot-up shooters. However when you throw Manu in the mix, Blair gets layups/Hill and RJ get good looks in transition and the team game becomes better. In the Nuggets game Ginobili didnt have a great scoring game, but he handed out 9ast and kept the ball moving. Parkers 9ast compared to Manu's 9ast are completely different.

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Bruno, this is Exhibit A. Now you can use your 'hater' line...
I wouldn't waste my time arguing with a guy like this either... :lol

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Originally Posted by Pauleta14

You should watch again the last play of game 5 in 2005, after Horry nailed the dagger...
Tony was guarding Rip hamilton who could have won the game and change the (his)story...

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Great one... I actually started a thread about that clutch play once!

TP went apeshit after Hamilton after the play (Hamilton cheaply / clearly elbowed him) and kinda wanted everybody to guess what he told him after the game was over.... he definitively barked something at Rip....

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Most jerseys sold?

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really? :downspin:

I think he also has more friends on Facebook... :lol