Initial Reaction: Spurs vs. Nuggets - Jan. 31

In the final game of a six-game homestand, the Spurs wanted to leave for the Rodeo Road Trip feeling good about themselves. Mission failed. In a back and forth affair, the Denver Nuggets eventually overwhelmed the Spurs and won by a final score of 103-89.

-Tim Duncan continues to look slowed. I'm not sure what the issue is but he's just not moving like the Duncan from earlier in the season. His defense suffered the most, while his offense was decent enough.

-Manu Ginobili once again struggled with his shot and once again was ineffective in the fourth quarter (no field goal in the final stanza). His energy was very good and his passing was amazing, however he was a bit more careless with the ball than he's been in recent outings.

-Richard Jefferson was decent. He didn't shoot well but at least he was aggressive offensively -- a trait we haven't seen often. He struggled in man-to-man defense but he was active away from the ball.

-George Hill scored well but the rest of his game was lacking. He played poor defense, did a very poor job running half court offense and overall just wasn't the calming influence he needed to be.

-Antonio McDyess was very bad in the first half. He picked it up in the final two quarters -- scoring all 13 of his points. But the Spurs can't afford for McDyess to come out of the gates playing passively and weak.

-Roger Mason, Jr. could have been a difference maker for the Spurs. Instead, he missed all five of his three-pointers even though he had great looks. Mason going 1-for-6 and Arron Afflalo going 6-for-6 might have been the difference in the game.

-Matt Bonner was once again the first bigman off the bench. He actually played pretty well. Getting three steals and two blocks from Bonner is always a plus. Bonner still needs to calm down a bit and his work on the boards could be better.

-DeJuan Blair only played when Duncan was off the court. Considering his quality production in limited minutes, Blair did his part for the Spurs to win. He entered the game looking to be aggressive and it worked out well for him.

-Michael Finley made his return to the court after missing 27 games due to an ankle sprain. He had a couple good defensive plays but was obviously not in game shape.

-Keith Bogans played five disastrous minutes. His biggest mistake came when he inexplicably wandered away from Chauncey Billups and let Denver's best player shoot and make a wide open three-pointer.

The Rodeo Road Trip is now upon the Spurs. This game illustrated that San Antonio still has a whole lot of work to do. The defense is weak and the offense can go through maddening bouts of inefficiency. The Spurs need smarter and more physical play on both ends of the court, especially with Tony Parker sidelined. As it stands, they just don't have enough pieces playing at a high level to win a pretty basketball game.

Let us hope that the Spurs return from the Rodeo Road Trip in one piece.

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Originally Posted by timvp

As it stands, they just don't have enough pieces playing at a high level to win a pretty basketball game.

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Watching LA/Boston on TV right now confirms this intuition for me.

A lot of work? It's basically over. Even if they win the majority of these games on this trip, Duncan's already fading, Parker will not be physically right for the remainder of the season, Ginobili is a shell of his former self, so big deal if they win 5 or 6 of 8 against mostly weak competition. Because of the amount of travel, the upcoming back-to-backs and the amount of minutes and energy the key players will have to expend just to accomplish that, this team will look like their running on fumes coming down the stretch. The only chance they have at salvaging this disaster is by making a significant trade, preferably as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Watching LA/Boston on TV right now confirms this intuition for me.

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Boston looks horrible..actually, they did look horrible, until Tony Allen came in the game, a good athlete with unpolished skills everywhere else..we don't have an energy spark like that, because we don't have any athletes on the active roster..

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Originally Posted by TD 21

A lot of work? It's basically over. Even if they win the majority of these games on this trip, Duncan's already fading, Parker will not be physically right for the remainder of the season, Ginobili is a shell of his former self, so big deal if they win 5 or 6 of 8 against mostly weak competition. Because of the amount of travel, the upcoming back-to-backs and the amount of minutes and energy the key players will have to expend just to accomplish that, this team will look like their running on fumes coming down the stretch. The only chance they have at salvaging this disaster is by making a significant trade, preferably as soon as possible.

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If the bold is a given, no trade would fix the hole in the ship.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

A lot of work? It's basically over. Even if they win the majority of these games on this trip, Duncan's already fading, Parker will not be physically right for the remainder of the season, Ginobili is a shell of his former self, so big deal if they win 5 or 6 of 8 against mostly weak competition. Because of the amount of travel, the upcoming back-to-backs and the amount of minutes and energy the key players will have to expend just to accomplish that, this team will look like their running on fumes coming down the stretch. The only chance they have at salvaging this disaster is by making a significant trade, preferably as soon as possible.

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I agree as well, The Spurs need to make a trade to upgrade the defense. I don't see this current group of Spurs contending.

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Originally Posted by timvp

If the bold is a given, no trade would fix the hole in the ship.

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I don't think any trade is going to bring us a title either way, it's too late in the season to fix some of the glaring holes IMO..

I'd still make a trade though, as long as it doesn't hurt the team from a long-term contract perspective..

I'd rather see the Spurs compete for the 2nd/3rd round, instead of being 1st round fodder or not even make the playoffs..

What happened to all the Tank threads?? haha

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Originally Posted by timvp

If the bold is a given, no trade would fix the hole in the ship.

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Probably not, but it's their final saving grace at this point. Let's be honest, you've got to be kidding yourself if you believe this team can contend for, much less win, a championship at this point. They're nowhere near being capable. Since they're supposedly going "all-in" any way and it's almost a guarantee that after Duncan retires this team will plummet, why not continue to attempt to change the team while it's still possible? There's three valuable expiring contracts on the roster, plus a 1st round pick and Splitter to offer up (if the player(s) coming back is good enough).

The boys seem to do poorly on nationally televised games.

I'm curious how the FO reacts to the win. Do they wait for Parker to return and hope he somehow plays at a much higher level then we've seen so far this year? Or, do they look to move some players to get someone back in return?

The problem with a trade is determining the most important weakness. We have problems all over the place. If we can get a quality player for some of expiring contracts then it's an obvious move. However, the heart of this team is no longer beating. It seems like all the "corporate knowledge" has been lost or forgotten. It will be interesting to see what happens next.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

I don't think any trade is going to bring us a title either way, it's too late in the season to fix some of the glaring holes IMO..

I'd still make a trade though, as long as it doesn't hurt the team from a long-term contract perspective..

I'd rather see the Spurs compete for the 2nd/3rd round, instead of being 1st round fodder or not even make the playoffs..

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If a championship isn't possible, the only trade I'd do would be one that helps the team out next season. A first round exit is the same as any other exit. In fact, a first round exit might be preferred since it'd allow for more rest.

That said, I think it's way too early to absolutely say this team can't win a championship as put together.

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Originally Posted by timvp

If a championship isn't possible, the only trade I'd do would be one that helps the team out next season. A first round exit is the same as any other exit. In fact, a first round exit might be preferred since it'd allow for more rest.

That said, I think it's way too early to absolutely say this team can't win a championship as put together.

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You never know what could happen though, so I'd still try..

There's always the chance of our guys getting hot at the right time like Orlando last year..a Gasol/Bynum or anybody else suffering from a major injury..you never know, I think it's worth trying for..

It could also make some more $ for ownership from ticket sales..

Also, if we make a trade for the right guy, there's also the potential inside track for signing him to a long-term deal, which like you said, could help the team next year and beyond, depending on the player in question..

Either way, I doubt Pop and the guys believe they have NO chance to win a title, so I expect them to do something..they can't possibly believe they can win with the current roster IMO..

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-Tim Duncan continues to look slowed. I'm not sure what the issue is but he's just not moving like the Duncan from earlier in the season. His defense suffered the most, while his offense was decent enough.

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Maybe it's the tendinitis but he's not saying anything.

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Originally Posted by The Truth #6

I'm curious how the FO reacts to the win. Do they wait for Parker to return and hope he somehow plays at a much higher level then we've seen so far this year? Or, do they look to move some players to get someone back in return?

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You can't judge the Spurs without TP. He's too important to the mix. Despite the improvements made in the season, the Spurs still have only two playmakers -- TP and Manu. With Manu struggling with endurance, the Spurs basically had no playmakers by the fourth quarter.

Add in Parker today and Billups wouldn't have been able to eat him alive like he did Hill ... and the offense would have gotten cleaner looks more often. So, to answer your question, I don't think this game changes what the FO is thinking one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by timvp

If a championship isn't possible, the only trade I'd do would be one that helps the team out next season. A first round exit is the same as any other exit. In fact, a first round exit might be preferred since it'd allow for more rest.

That said, I think it's way too early to absolutely say this team can't win a championship as put together.

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Right, because that did them so well in '09. The reality is basketball, more than ever, is a young man's game. True, veteran teams win championships, but you can't have a core full of guys who can't withstand the rigors of the NBA season and expect to win a championship.

This managing minutes was a necessity with this group, but what good has it done? Duncan looks sluggish, despite playing under 33 mpg, Ginobili looks close to done, despite playing under 27 mpg, Parker is worn out, despite playing under 33 mpg. How much more rest do these guys need? Pop can't afford to give them any more rest, because it's going to be a struggle just to make the playoffs.

It's no longer "way too early" for anything. You're still clinging to the past.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

Right, because that did them so well in '09.

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I guess I should have clarified: no national team play in the summer and no player coming off of surgery. The rest would help Duncan ... but that's no guarantee that he'll be able to survive an 82 game season either way.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

It's no longer "way too early" for anything. You're still clinging to the past.

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:lol Show me a trade that allows for the Spurs to make up for a declining Duncan, a hurt Parker and an over the hill Manu and then we'll talk.

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Originally Posted by timvp

-Richard Jefferson was decent. He didn't shoot well but at least he was aggressive offensively -- a trait we haven't seen often. He struggled in man-to-man defense but he was active away from the ball.

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Totally disagree.
I loved that pass on the 3 on 2 fastbreak in the second quarter. That really showed how good this guy is.
After that failed dunk in the third, he sits on the bench forever.
Intead, he goes on making his nonsense plays and fouls late in the fourth.
He just emanates a languid air of softness and sighs throughout his body.
He is contagious, as of lately.
Throw in a Jefferson in the 03, 05 and 07 squads and, ipso facto, bye bye titles.

Speaking very frankly, the decision to play this guy at all, is a big hint at Popovich having just lost it.

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Originally Posted by timvp

You can't judge the Spurs without TP. He's too important to the mix. Despite the improvements made in the season, the Spurs still have only two playmakers -- TP and Manu. With Manu struggling with endurance, the Spurs basically had no playmakers by the fourth quarter.

Add in Parker today and Billups wouldn't have been able to eat him alive like he did Hill ... and the offense would have gotten cleaner looks more often. So, to answer your question, I don't think this game changes what the FO is thinking one way or the other.

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Even when Tony was playing well before the injury the FO was still considering making a trade. Yes, having Parker on the court is better than without, however I'm not sure Parker would have been a great defender either as Billups has been playing very well lately.

I still suspect this game further cements whatever notions the FO might have. With more and more losses mounting, they know they have to do something.

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Originally Posted by temujin

Totally disagree.
I loved that pass on the 3 on 2 fastbreak in the second quarter. That really showed how good this guy is.
After that failed dunk in the third, he sits on the bench forever.
Intead, he goes on making his nonsense plays and fouls late in the fourth.
He just emanates a languid air of softness and sighs throughout his body.
He is contagious, as of lately.
Throw in a Jefferson in the 03, 05 and 07 squads and, ipso facto, bye bye titles.

Speaking very frankly, the decision to play this guy at all, is a big hint at Popovich having just lost it.

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:lol:lol

:lol:lol

This trip is always when they get it together, Pop can finalize his rotation then we'll really see what we got. I don't know why they don't run the offense through Duncan, and I really don't know why the way Blair played today that he got such little time, so instead we could watch Bonner miss wide open 3's. Anyway let's not give up just yet!

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Originally Posted by timvp

You can't judge the Spurs without TP. He's too important to the mix. Despite the improvements made in the season, the Spurs still have only two playmakers -- TP and Manu. With Manu struggling with endurance, the Spurs basically had no playmakers by the fourth quarter.

Add in Parker today and Billups wouldn't have been able to eat him alive like he did Hill ... and the offense would have gotten cleaner looks more often. So, to answer your question, I don't think this game changes what the FO is thinking one way or the other.

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Billups was no match for the Spurs guards.
Simply too good. The defense-less 2010 Parker would hardly have made a difference.

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Originally Posted by temujin

Totally disagree.
I loved that pass on the 3 on 2 fastbreak in the second quarter. That really showed how good this guy is.
After that failed dunk in the third, he sits on the bench forever.
Intead, he goes on making his nonsense plays and fouls late in the fourth.
He just emanates a languid air of softness and sighs throughout his body.
He is contagious, as of lately.
Throw in a Jefferson in the 03, 05 and 07 squads and, ipso facto, bye bye titles.

Speaking very frankly, the decision to play this guy at all, is a big hint at Popovich having just lost it.

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If the Spurs are going to improve RJ is going to have to improve. I don't think playing Bogans in his place is that much better of an option. I think Pop makes mistakes but the team is stuck waiting to see if RJ can get better. I agree it may not happen, but with his salary there's little chance he's going to get benched like you suggest.

Good summary timvp.

I think you were a little harsh on Duncan; only because I felt the refs allowed Denver to play overly physical with him.

To me the 2 turning points were the missed rotation by Bogans on Billups and the three point play by Martin.

With every passing game it becomes more and more mind boggling why Pop allows Bogans to see the floor.

In many ways, this loss is on Pop. Inserting Bogans was a momentum changer- except not for us and limiting Blair's time (especially on Martin) was also very suspect.

Pop needs to decide on a rotation and stick with it.

This team needs cohesiveness. Too many guys have no clue what their roles are and Pop hasn't figured out what combinations work best.

Here's hoping the Rodeo produces that and rescues our season.

Jefferson rehired the guy.
I guess he needs all the help he can get, even on this board.

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Originally Posted by temujin

Jefferson rehired the guy.
I guess he needs all the help he can get, even on this board.

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Who/what are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by The Truth #6

If the Spurs are going to improve RJ is going to have to improve. I don't think playing Bogans in his place is that much better of an option. I think Pop makes mistakes but the team is stuck waiting to see if RJ can get better. I agree it may not happen, but with his salary there's little chance he's going to get benched like you suggest.

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Won't happen.
Fix it.
We are talking about a Carmelo-less Denver.
The guy is an ex player.
And I agree there is nothing the Spurs can do about it.

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Originally Posted by The Truth #6

Who/what are you talking about?

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Nothing.

There is a very active guy that is writing on this board from the beginning of the season like he is Jefferson's agent.
In that sense, he i unlike his protegee.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I guess I should have clarified: no national team play in the summer and no player coming off of surgery. The rest would help Duncan ... but that's no guarantee that he'll be able to survive an 82 game season either way.



:lol Show me a trade that allows for the Spurs to make up for a declining Duncan, a hurt Parker and an over the hill Manu and then we'll talk.

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It doesn't matter, man. This core has too many miles on them to withstand the rigors of an NBA season. It doesn't matter how much rest they get in the summer, how much their minutes are managed during the regular season, they don't have the legs and the energy for it anymore.

So it's not worth a shot? They've already supposedly gone "all-in"; what's one more trade? They have the assets for it and the future, whether they stand pat or not, isn't bright, so what's the difference? While they still have an outside chance, they ought to take advantage of it. Because when Duncan's gone, this team will be lucky to sniff the playoffs for the first few years after.

Timvp, in all the doom/gloom talk, wringing of hands, let's trade this one and that one, you always make sense! :toast

As for the Spurs, it's not looking that the Spurs will that much noise this year. Maybe it was thought that stir in Richard Jefferson with a healthy Manu, TD and Tony along w/McDyess & Balir = instant challenger to Laker dominance.
Reality is.....probably never was and will never be......

I wonder if the team we thought the Spurs would be this season will emerge in 2010. But....will we have still Manu? And if so, does he have something left to take it to the next level? :depressed

The other worrisome issue is that Ginobili is not getting any calls on penetrations over the last 5-6 games.
In the past games, in many cases I thought he forced the issue and was a bit weak on his last step.
Not today, though.
It's becoming a theme: maybe his bad reputation is catching up with him.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Add in Parker today and Billups wouldn't have been able to eat him alive like he did Hill ...

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I disagree with this. Tony almost never guards Billups. It's been a job for Bowen and Manu most of the time. On top of that, Chauncey is having one of the best seasons of his career. The truth is that he bitchslapped us whenever he wanted, and we simply had no means to respond. It was really frustrating.

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Originally Posted by temujin

The other worrisome issue is that Ginobili is not getting any calls on penetrations over the last 5-6 games.
In the past games, in many cases I thought he forced the issue and was a bit weak on his last step.
Not today, though.
It's becoming a theme: maybe his bad reputation is catching up with him.

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This, and some of them are just ridiculous. That offensive foul with (i think) Birdman basically living in the restrict area was disgusting. Some of them are good no calls, but mostly Manu's getting battered around and getting no calls at all, idk what's going on

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Originally Posted by mytespurs

Timvp, in all the doom/gloom talk, wringing of hands, let's trade this one and that one, you always make sense! :toast

As for the Spurs, it's not looking that the Spurs will that much noise this year. Maybe it was thought that stir in Richard Jefferson with a healthy Manu, TD and Tony along w/McDyess & Balir = instant challenger to Laker dominance.
Reality is.....probably never was and will never be......

I wonder if the team we thought the Spurs would be this season will emerge in 2010. But....will we have still Manu? And if so, does he have something left to take it to the next level? :depressed

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I don't think Manu is ever going to take it to the next level again. He's healthy and all, but he doesn't seem to have that quick first step, or that explosion any more. That's why it's been hard for him to score and get to the paint. I guess that's what age and playing basketball non-stop does to you.:depressed Don't even get me started on TP. That guy fucked the Spurs and their title hopes when he decided to play for his crappy NT.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I disagree with this. Tony almost never guards Billups. It's been a job for Bowen and Manu most of the time. On top of that, Chauncey is having one of the best seasons of his career. The truth is that he bitchslapped us whenever he wanted, and we simply had no means to respond. It was really frustrating.

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that's true for when it mattered. When crunch time came, it was Bowen on Billups. Bowen with the game saving block in game 7, Parker wouldn't have come close.

Besides, what's really the point of arguing that Parker today would have made the difference . . . isn't it even more true that Carmelo Anthony playing today would have made a bigger difference? RJ trying to check that? Bogans?

Good game guys.

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Originally Posted by ffadicted

This, and some of them are just ridiculous. That offensive foul with (i think) Birdman basically living in the restrict area was disgusting. Some of them are good no calls, but mostly Manu's getting battered around and getting no calls at all, idk what's going on

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Yes, that was a terrible call.
No reaction from the bench.
Flat.
Is there a rule which prohibits future Hall of famers to get technicals?

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Originally Posted by cambrad

Good game guys.

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Denver looked like 2007 Spurs.

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Originally Posted by temujin

Denver looked like 2007 Spurs.

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WTF how?? :lol

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Originally Posted by xtremesteven33

WTF how?? :lol

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no late turnovers, steady and the other team folded?

Looking at the replay of the game that three J.R. Smith dropped after an offensive rebound with about 2:00 to go in the 4th was a dagger. Clutch.


We could have really used his clutchness for Barry right about now :*(

I wish we knew something with regards to the Spurs FO thinking trade. I have no idea what they think about the current state of the team. It would be nice to know if their views match up with ours.

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Originally Posted by timvp

-DeJuan Blair only played when Duncan was off the court.

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And this is because?

A good trade will certainly help this team, that is just foolish. To what degree is the question.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I disagree with this. Tony almost never guards Billups. It's been a job for Bowen and Manu most of the time.

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Huh? Parker has guarded him over the years more than 90% of the time. Bowen defended him sometimes late in games. I'm not sure where you get that about Manu ... maybe Manu has played like 1% of the time against Billups when Parker is on the bench and the shooting guard is a worse matchup. In the 2005 Finals, the matchups were almost always Parker on Billups, Bowen on Rip and Manu on Prince.

And in recent games, Parker has done very good work defensively against Billups. In their last eight matchups, Billups has shot 4-for-10, 5-for-13, 3-for-12, 3-for-10, 3-for-10, 7-for-17, 4-for-14 and 6-for-17 for a total of 35-for-103 (33.9%). Parker used to have trouble with Billups but he's figured him out in recent years.

If Parker ever played defense on Billups as bad as Hill played today, there'd be about 15 "Trade Parker" threads.

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Originally Posted by timvp

huh? Parker has guarded him over the years more than 90% of the time. Bowen defended him sometimes late in games. I'm not sure where you get that about manu ... Maybe manu has played like 1% of the time against billups when parker is on the bench and the shooting guard is a worse matchup. In the 2005 finals, the matchups were almost always parker on billups, bowen on rip and manu on prince.

And in recent games, parker has done very good work defensively against billups. In their last eight matchups, billups has shot 4-for-10, 5-for-13, 3-for-12, 3-for-10, 3-for-10, 7-for-17, 4-for-14 and 6-for-17 for a total of 35-for-103 (33.9%). Parker used to have trouble with billups but he's figured him out in recent years.

If parker ever played defense on billups as bad as hill played today, there'd be about 15 "trade parker" threads.

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+10000000000000000000000

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Originally Posted by leemajors

no late turnovers, steady and the other team folded?

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And a point guard that simply cannot be stopped.

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Originally Posted by temujin

Denver looked like 2008 Spurs.

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Fixed

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Originally Posted by timvp

If a championship isn't possible, the only trade I'd do would be one that helps the team out next season. A first round exit is the same as any other exit. In fact, a first round exit might be preferred since it'd allow for more rest.

That said, I think it's way too early to absolutely say this team can't win a championship as put together.

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While I suppose anything is possible, I'm not connecting with this statement. What in your opinion makes this roster a contender over the last 36 games?

I'm tired of Jefferson he sucks

hmmm. Didn't get to watch or hear the game...but the outcome didn't suprise me.

Thanks for the break down. Not being suprised by the outcome is the saddest truth many of us are having to face this season.

I agree with timvp...no trade at this point is going to "fix" this team if what was said about Duncan, Parker and Ginobili to be true.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Huh? Parker has guarded him over the years more than 90% of the time. Bowen defended him sometimes late in games. I'm not sure where you get that about Manu ... maybe Manu has played like 1% of the time against Billups when Parker is on the bench and the shooting guard is a worse matchup. In the 2005 Finals, the matchups were almost always Parker on Billups, Bowen on Rip and Manu on Prince.

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After you posted this, I went back to check on games, because I clearly remember a game Billups single handedly destroyed us, scoring like 20+ points in like only 7 shots. That game was last season:



But Tony was actually out of that game, which is something I didn't remember. I stand corrected then... :toast

This is one we can't pin on Tony except if we blame the loss on him not being there. This team has so many glaring weaknesses it's not even funny. No execution late in the game which has happened with Tony, handling the ball, Manu handling the ball, going through Duncan. Same results, no baskets, then the team goes back down and get a basket or goes to the line. The biggest thing for this team is that Pop keeps messing with the lineups and then he does it at the wierdest times. After a shaky homestand he does it again for no apparent reason that I can see. Putting Bonner and Finley into the rotation, starting Mason. He keeps jerking those chains.

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Originally Posted by pjjrfan

This is one we can't pin on Tony except if we blame the loss on him not being there. This team has so many glaring weaknesses it's not even funny. No execution late in the game which has happened with Tony, handling the ball, Manu handling the ball, going through Duncan. Same results, no baskets, then the team goes back down and get a basket or goes to the line. The biggest thing for this team is that Pop keeps messing with the lineups and then he does it at the wierdest times. After a shaky homestand he does it again for no apparent reason that I can see. Putting Bonner and Finley into the rotation, starting Mason. He keeps jerking those chains.

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It appears there are many ways to lose on purpose without even knowing it's being done or able to prove it's happening. :stirpot:

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

And this is because?

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Are you alluding to Bonner and Finley's minutes??? Bonner did sumthim' at least, Finley was Finley (crap offense crap defense, Pop's favorite son!)

It's now completely clear that the Spurs' fortunes this season are going to hinge on the performance of McDyess and Jefferson. If Bonner and Blair can't get minutes from McDyess as well as they played and as bad as Dice was then it's pretty plain that the Spurs are throwing their fortunes in with him. And Jefferson was just abysmal on the defensive end. Hope he pulls his head out before it's too late.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

It's now completely clear that the Spurs' fortunes this season are going to hinge on the performance of McDyess and Jefferson. If Bonner and Blair can't get minutes from McDyess as well as they played and as bad as Dice was then it's pretty plain that the Spurs are throwing their fortunes in with him. And Jefferson was just abysmal on the defensive end. Hope he pulls his head out before it's too late.

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How was Jefferson the one drawing your ire? If anything, Hill was the abysmal one.

Once again, this was a contending team that the Spurs played. Yet they failed miserably. Imagine how bad this loss would've been had the Nuggets had Carmelo Anthony.

We're roughly at the halfway point of the season. The losses are mounted and the excuses are running out. I don't know what else can be done to improve the team's chances this year, but the options aren't plenty.

The FO sold out, wholeheartedly, to keep the championship hopes alive for the next 2 seasons and should be commended for it. However, it's starting to look like that gamble that isn't going to pay dividends.

Moreover, it's quite possible the window has already slammed shut on this team. If Duncan is fading, Manu has alreeady faded and Parker hobbled, this team is done - not just for this season either.

At some point, the FO and us fans are going to have to face reality that this era is rapidly closing, if it's not already. A first-round playoff exit be dammed. If the Spurs aren't good enough to secure a top-four seed, I'd rather take see them take their chances in the lottery. I'd much rather see a rapid rebuild than see them floundering around .500 and struggle for an eight spot in the playoffs. A team can get caught up on a "treadmill of mediocrity" for years. There's absolutely no joy, whatsoever, in seeing a team that's old, expensive, and slow lose games on a regular basis. I'd rather have youth and hope.

Tony Parker would have given Billups medicine right back to him had he been playing. It was big not having anyone to match Chaunceys PG production.

Saying that, if the Spurs play the Nuggets in the playoffs Melo will violate Dick Jefferson so hard Luke Walton will wake up with a yeast infection.

i only read timvp's final thoughts

his initial reactions are too pops for my liking

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Originally Posted by Sobe_Kucks

Are you alluding to Bonner and Finley's minutes??? Bonner did sumthim' at least, Finley was Finley (crap offense crap defense, Pop's favorite son!)

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Bonner was decent concur.
But why at the expense of Blairs minutes?

I refer back to that 4-5 game stretch where Pooped did start Blair alongside Duncan and we ran off 4-5 wins. Granted they were against some patsies, but Blair delivered consistently and Timmy Dunkar looked completely reenergized.
Dumbassovich ended all that vs Utah and basically ever since then.

Mrs. Finleyovich it's long since passed any and all basketball reasons. Either they have a relationship outside the court and/or Poop has sold out for money to whomever. Repeat, it is long since not a basketball issue, that is redundant and obvious that Finley has been unable to hang since the 2007 Finals.

nuggets shot 52 percent
everyone bangs on tp d

he did not play today
so I GUESS HE IS NOT THE ONE THAT CAN NOT PLAY D HUH

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

How was Jefferson the one drawing your ire? If anything, Hill was the abysmal one.

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at least he contributed on the other end

with a continually injured parker, a shadow of ginobili, duncan slowing, jefferson not improving, and the role players playing like the 2009 first round exit, while this deep into the season, nothing but a trade would help this team to contend. this will be the first time this season, i don't believe the spurs can contend. and i won't stop believing it until they make a trade. this team, as is, cannot go to the finals.

spurs desperately need the all star parker back.

duncan can't carry this team anymore. he's more suited as the second option now. having him consistently as the first option will wear him down like last year and maybe again this year.

jefferson is not improving in the system. spurs can't afford to give him a year to adjust.

i really don't trust mason and bonner will deliver in the playoffs as they severely choked in last season's playoffs.

and as for ginobili, i think he's done. his shooting has become horribly inefficient. his passing is still there, but it's time for ginobili to hang up as one of the big three and revert into a role player. he should be someone who makes smart and steady passes, shoots the open jumper, and plays defense. he's no manu ginobili anymore.

spurs need a trade for a third scoring option that would fill ginobili and jefferson's lack of scoring. parker, if healthy, can still be the primary scorer but spurs need, not a good but a great, two way player to even come close to a championship.

i still advocate a trade for iguodala and dalembert if necessary to acquire iguodala. if it means giving up ginobili, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by timvp

The Spurs need smarter and more physical play on both ends of the court, especially with Tony Parker sidelined. As it stands, they just don't have enough pieces playing at a high level to win a pretty basketball game.

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Everyone must agree with this, especially after the BOS/LA game. I know it's hard sometimes for the Spurs to get real physical, since it seems to me they always get ticky tack calls against them compared when teams like BOS/LA play each other. There is a severe lack of toughness, which could stem from a lot of things...which is not to say that our team isn't trying or talened enough to get the job done, but I firmly believe there's a mental block or acute glitch in this machine.

Last year, we did more with less. Games were either won in the finals seconds or total blowouts against us...and this season we can't win close games, IMPORTANT games, even though we sometimes blow out inferior teams. I'm not feeling the magic, there is something misfiring on our team and someone needs to get to the bottom of it before we sink further. :(

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

How was Jefferson the one drawing your ire? If anything, Hill was the abysmal one.

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Hill's a backup point guard who got a bitch of a matchup and did pretty well with it. People weren't scoring because he was standing around. I'll take Billups shooting 7-15 in 45 minutes of floortime just about any day. He held his own, which is really all you can ask of him.

Jefferson is supposed to be playing like a starter, and he was so bad in stretches it's like he was just waiting for them to score so he could take the ball out of bounds. Seriously, who DIDN'T hit a three when RJ was supposed to be covering him?

I also think the strategy of limiting players' minutes needs to be scrapped. The Spurs are healthy and they're fading despite the careful attempts to keep them fresh. That smacks of weakness. If Pop's going to shorten his rotation, he needs to give two or three guys 40-45 minutes every night. The Spurs haven't played with any kind of fortitude in years, and I have no faith in their ability to show maturity, so what they need is some battle-hardening.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I also think the strategy of limiting players' minutes needs to be scrapped. The Spurs are healthy and they're fading despite the careful attempts to keep them fresh. That smacks of weakness. If Pop's going to shorten his rotation, he needs to give two or three guys 40-45 minutes every night. The Spurs haven't played with any kind of fortitude in years, and I have no faith in their ability to show maturity, so what they need is some battle-hardening.

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dude i honestly don't see a single player on the roster you can give that much playing time to

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

Everyone must agree with this, especially after the BOS/LA game. I know it's hard sometimes for the Spurs to get real physical, since it seems to me they always get ticky tack calls against them compared when teams like BOS/LA play each other. There is a severe lack of toughness, which could stem from a lot of things...which is not to say that our team isn't trying or talened enough to get the job done, but I firmly believe there's a mental block or acute glitch in this machine.

Last year, we did more with less. Games were either won in the finals seconds or total blowouts against us...and this season we can't win close games, IMPORTANT games, even though we sometimes blow out inferior teams. I'm not feeling the magic, there is something misfiring on our team and someone needs to get to the bottom of it before we sink further. :(

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Guys like:

- Bonner
- Mason
- Finley
- Jefferson

Will play hard, but are simply not physical players. You can't pretend this team to play one way when they simply don't have that makeup. I think this is one of the aspects a trade should cover. If we trade for somebody, it cannot be somebody that you can tack into this list.

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

dude i honestly don't see a single player on the roster you can give that much playing time to

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After a game in which DeJuan Blair logged ten points in 11 minutes, my only response is: Are you serious?

I guess this is why the Spurs are fucking doomed. We've all been duped into believing that they're cupcakes that have to be babied in order to be ready for the postseason when they look to be incapable of digging deep and showing anything.

Chauncey Billups just played 45 minutes and he's the same age as Duncan. The Nuggets have two other good point guards on the team and a starter out injured. George Karl wasn't thinking about keeping Billups rested, he was thinking about winning the game.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

After a game in which DeJuan Blair logged ten points in 11 minutes, my only response is: Are you serious?

I guess this is why the Spurs are fucking doomed. We've all been duped into believing that they're cupcakes that have to be babied in order to be ready for the postseason when they look to be incapable of digging deep and showing anything.

Chauncey Billups just played 45 minutes and he's the same age as Duncan. The Nuggets have two other good point guards on the team and a starter out injured. George Karl wasn't thinking about keeping Billups rested, he was thinking about winning the game.

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When I replied, I was thinking that DeJuan Blair, all things considered, would be the only one worth playing a shitload of minutes....but call me a pussy but if I'm coach no way I play a rookie testing out his first nba season that kind of minutes who has a potential knee issue. You have to see how he handles his first season...he's a rookie.

It can't be Tim man, the dude just cannot handle it...you know this as well as we.

Manu playing that kind of minutes is useless, he sucks after minute 24 or so.

Parker is the same as Manu this season.

RJ could probably handle that work load, but do you really want his suckass out there that much in the game?


Who would you play that much time?

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

When I replied, I was thinking that DeJuan Blair, all things considered, would be the only one worth playing a shitload of minutes....but call me a pussy but if I'm coach no way I play a rookie testing out his first nba season that kind of minutes who has a potential knee issue. You have to see how he handles his first season...he's a rookie.

It can't be Tim man, the dude just cannot handle it...you know this as well as we.

Manu playing that kind of minutes is useless, he sucks after minute 24 or so.

Parker is the same as Manu this season.

RJ could probably handle that work load, but do you really want his suckass out there that much in the game?


Who would you play that much time?

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At the very least, I want to keep a lineup that has been torching the other team to stay there until the run is over. Sometimes we make a 10-0 run, then Pop calls a TO and changes the entire team. It's like a WTF moment...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

When I replied, I was thinking that DeJuan Blair, all things considered, would be the only one worth playing a shitload of minutes....but call me a pussy but if I'm coach no way I play a rookie testing out his first nba season that kind of minutes who has a potential knee issue. You have to see how he handles his first season...he's a rookie.

It can't be Tim man, the dude just cannot handle it...you know this as well as we.

Manu playing that kind of minutes is useless, he sucks after minute 24 or so.

Parker is the same as Manu this season.

RJ could probably handle that work load, but do you really want his suckass out there that much in the game?


Who would you play that much time?

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It depends in large part upon who's playing well. Too many times have I seen Pop reward the opposing coach for calling timeout during a Spurs run. You see the Spurs go on a 14-2 run and when they come back from commercial the guy who scored half those points is on the bench, along with the guy who passed the ball to him for most of those baskets.

Perhaps it's less of a question of total minutes and more a question of being able to play heavy minutes without a break. It's almost like the Spurs are overcompensating for riding Parker so hard at the beginning of last season, but the more I think about it, the surer I am that being so tentative with these players makes them play tentatively. I'd like, if nothing else, to see Duncan and Ginobili and Blair get 20 minutes each in the first half of a game a few times. If they can't respond to a little adversity now, does it really matter how rested they are in the playoffs when they have the same inability to dig deep?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

It depends in large part upon who's playing well. Too many times have I seen Pop reward the opposing coach for calling timeout during a Spurs run. You see the Spurs go on a 14-2 run and when they come back from commercial the guy who scored half those points is on the bench, along with the guy who passed the ball to him for most of those baskets.

Perhaps it's less of a question of total minutes and more a question of being able to play heavy minutes without a break. It's almost like the Spurs are overcompensating for riding Parker so hard at the beginning of last season, but the more I think about it, the surer I am that being so tentative with these players makes them play tentatively. I'd like, if nothing else, to see Duncan and Ginobili and Blair get 20 minutes each in the first half of a game a few times. If they can't respond to a little adversity now, does it really matter how rested they are in the playoffs when they have the same inability to dig deep?

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True
didn't think of it like that

but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the thing that sucks balls is that we know coaches rarely change their tendencies...and we're talkin about Gregg freakin Popavich here....he has his championships, I really don't think we'll ever see him try something new in regards to playing time and time outs.

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

True
didn't think of it like that

but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the thing that sucks balls is that we know coaches rarely change their tendencies...and we're talkin about Gregg freakin Popavich here....he has his championships, I really don't think we'll ever see him try something new in regards to playing time and time outs.

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I think Pop has bought into the hype about being "older than dirt" and that mentality has softened the edge that they used to have as a veteran team. It's one thing to joke about it, it's quite another to project that weakness to your opponent as well as your own team day after day after day.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Hill's a backup point guard who got a bitch of a matchup and did pretty well with it. People weren't scoring because he was standing around. I'll take Billups shooting 7-15 in 45 minutes of floortime just about any day. He held his own, which is really all you can ask of him.

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Check the Billups vs Parker shooting average posted above, now look at what Hill did yesterday and explain to me why Hill is ALWAYS described as playing vastly superior D compared to Parker.

On the other hand I agree with you re: minutes, especially if this year is supposed to go "burst or bust" from a management POV then why not apply the same approach to the players. Why are other teams playing their rookies 25+ minutes a night, but with the Spurs it's always (except Duncan, or Parker some eons ago) that a rookie can't play more than 10-15mpg, with quite a lot of it coming in garbage time?

Blair, Hill and RJ should get 35+ mpg and at least we'd know what they are truly worth. In the worst case it still wouldn't make such a big difference to the W-L ratio.

I also don't understand with letting some young players (like Blair or Mahinmi) foul out. Is it that after you foul out 3 times in your career you're banned for life? It sure feels like it when looking at the rotations.

I thought R. Jefferson had a decent game, he was pretty average on D today "both good and bad plays" even though he didn't shoot the ball well today, but i like the way he attacked, it was one of his more aggressive game on offense today.

what really bothered me was that M. Bonner is again getting more playing time than D. Blair; let me tell you this D. Blair has earned his right to be the 1st big off the bench, there's no way any coach in his right mind would only give D. Blair 11 mpg.

i finally came to accept the fact that M. Ginobili has lost a few steps in his game; he's been healthy for quite a while now, and i really expect that this is the M. Ginobili that we are going to see for the rest of the year. When his jumper is falling, he will have his occasional 20-30 points game, but when its not these are the kind of game that we are going to be expecting. I would be 100% AMAZED to see the Suns stupid enough to traded A. Stoudemire for M. Ginobili.

Well to be honest when I was watching the game I thought: "How the hell are they still in this game?"

To me the score looks worse than it actually was. They were down two with 2 1/2 minutes to go.

- they shot about 10% less from the field than Denver.
- Denver was 75% from downtown opposed to 17,6% from the Spurs
- Spurs get outrebounded

And they still had a chance to win this game. If Parker comes back, the shooters find their touch again and the defense improves in certain areas, I think the Spurs will be fine.

Thanks for the thoughts, timvp.

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Originally Posted by Streakyshooter08

Well to be honest when I was watching the game I thought: "How the hell are they still in this game?"

To me the score looks worse than it actually was. They were down two with 2 1/2 minutes to go.

- they shot about 10% less from the field than Denver.
- Denver was 75% from downtown opposed to 17,6% from the Spurs
- Spurs get outrebounded

And they still had a chance to win this game. If Parker comes back, the shooters find their touch again and the defense improves in certain areas, I think the Spurs will be fine.

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Denver turning the ball over 19 times had something to do with us still hanging on late in the 4th.

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Originally Posted by temujin

Billups was no match for the Spurs guards.
Simply too good. The defense-less 2010 Parker would hardly have made a difference.

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Maybe we can put it down to still learning but Billups made George Hill look stupid on D . He got away from Hill too easily. The sad part , it didn't take much for him to get away and it was usually the same way. Just a simple hand off, wait for Hill to back off and then run off him to his right. Hill was always playing catch-up. Not once did i see him adjust .

Jefferson putting the ball to the floor and attacking the rim is somthing we all want to see more often. Just don't be so tentative with it . Either put it in strong or dish it off. Don't just stop or change your mind half way in mid-air.


Manu's wayward shooting is a big concern, yet i saw a lot good things from him out there which to me suggest it's only a matter of time. It's obvious he's making more of a concerted effort on the drive since the first half of the season . What i liked , on most them is that he looked spry and the quick change of speed was there. The problem is his timing and balance is still quite off. With repetition it's going to become more fluid and second nature to him. One positive from Manu attacking the rim is that he's getting to line more often. He 's also passing better than ever so im not sure why people keep downplaying that part of his game. If not for Manu's play-making and passin ability, the spurs wouldn't even be fighting out a close game.

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Originally Posted by bless1187

what really bothered me was that M. Bonner is again getting more playing time than D. Blair; let me tell you this D. Blair has earned his right to be the 1st big off the bench, there's no way any coach in his right mind would only give D. Blair 11 mpg.

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I'd agree with you, except Bonner was great. He had two blocks and three steals, and they were all from making smart aggressive plays. I'm not positive that anyone played better defense than Bonner did yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I'd agree with you, except Bonner was great. He had two blocks and three steals, and they were all from making smart aggressive plays. I'm not positive that anyone played better defense than Bonner did yesterday.

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Funny, I thought he gave up just as much as he produced. I'll have to go and watch the game again. I do recall KMart was going at him every time Pop put him in there.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Funny, I thought he gave up just as much as he produced. I'll have to go and watch the game again. I do recall KMart was going at him every time Pop put him in there.

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I'll go back and watch again too, just to make sure. At first I thought there was something wrong with Bonner's defense that Martin was scoring, but when Bonner wasn't covering him, Martin was either wide open or under the basket with the defender behind him. I'd be surprised if anyone's plus minus was higher than Bonner's, even though he wasn't scoring.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I'll go back and watch again too, just to make sure. At first I thought there was something wrong with Bonner's defense that Martin was scoring, but when Bonner wasn't covering him, Martin was either wide open or under the basket with the defender behind him. I'd be surprised if anyone's plus minus was higher than Bonner's, even though he wasn't scoring.

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Ginobili and Bonner both ended up with a team high +8
Finley was the only other Spur with a positive plus/minus: +3

Then again, plus/minus is pretty irrelevant IMO, even more so in a single game. I'll probably re-watch the game tonight...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Ginobili and Bonner both ended up with a team high +8
Finley was the only other Spur with a positive plus/minus: +3

Then again, plus/minus is pretty irrelevant IMO, even more so in a single game. I'll probably re-watch the game tonight...

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For the most part, I agree, but I really thought Bonner did all he could with his time, and when a guy can stay on the plus side without scoring, that's a good sign. The only real gripe I have about Bonner's defense is that he's always got a hand up on guys but never actually blocks shots. Two blocks is like a career day.

And I was pretty pleased with Fin's minutes. That poke-away steal he had was really nice. It's an indication of how bad Jefferson's defense is that Spurs fans like how much better Finley stays with his man. :bang

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Ginobili and Bonner both ended up with a team high +8
Finley was the only other Spur with a positive plus/minus: +3

Then again, plus/minus is pretty irrelevant IMO, even more so in a single game. I'll probably re-watch the game tonight...

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If you do, could you please mark down the points the Spurs scored WITHOUT Mr. Ginobili getting a touch at the ball?
Even papa McDyess could score with his passes last night.
Thanks.

There are people here that just discovered that Billups,
one of the best point guards ever to play the game,
is still better than 2nd year George Hill.

And no, George Hill is not making 14 millions.

I'm worried about Manu's step back 3 that has always been so devastating. It seems to be gone and bad conditioning or being slower on drives should't affect that.

I wonder if anyone has given him a vision test. You do have vision changes as you get older and for the most part they are so gradual that you don't realize it for a long time.

[QUOTE=MemphisSpursFan;4043963]The boys seem to do poorly on nationally televised games.[/QUOTE

Thats because nationally televised games are against the top teams and the spurs overall have not done well against the top teams.

Did anyone really expect the Spurs to win an afternoon game...?

They're not even awake...

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Originally Posted by temujin

There are people here that just discovered that Billups,
one of the best point guards ever to play the game,
is still better than 2nd year George Hill.

And no, George Hill is not making 14 millions.

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Agree, Billups is one of the top guards in the NBA and is playing on top of his game since he got back from injury.

Hill is not even a natural true pg but an undersized sg trying to play the point.

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Originally Posted by Slippy

Maybe we can put it down to still learning but Billups made George Hill look stupid on D . He got away from Hill too easily. The sad part , it didn't take much for him to get away and it was usually the same way. Just a simple hand off, wait for Hill to back off and then run off him to his right. Hill was always playing catch-up. Not once did i see him adjust .

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Billups does that to most pgs in the league. He may not get much run nationally, but he's "kinda good" (sarcasm). No surprise the Nuggets made great strides once he showed up in Denver. He most likely would have done the same to Parker one on one.

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Originally Posted by Sobe_Kucks

He most likely would have done the same to Parker one on one.

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Exactly, the way Parker been playing this year with plantar f., it wouldn't of made any difference. The real question is, would the Spurs be better if you switched parker with Billups?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by temujin

There are people here that just discovered that Billups,
one of the best point guards ever to play the game,
is still better than 2nd year George Hill.

And no, George Hill is not making 14 millions.

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Some people on this board are saying that Hill is already at the same level or even better than Parker... it can't go both ways. So Hill is better than Parker only when guarding bad players?

People Parker wouldn't have made a difference when timvp posted the stats of Parker vs Billups that show Parker would actually have had a great chance of being better.

Yea, until it's the fourth quarter when he misses wide open shots and turns the ball over. Parker or not Billups would have done the same thing.

What makes this season so frustrating is that every time you think our team has taken an important step in the right direction (as has been the case numerous times, the last example being the wins over the Hawks and the Grizz), they immediately stumble two steps back.

I think that we'll probably have to live with Manu not being able to score as efficiently as he used to do.
But as long as he has the kind of impact he has been having lately, I don't think it's that big a problem. RJ is doing fine enough on that front, in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sobe_Kucks

Billups does that to most pgs in the league. He may not get much run nationally, but he's "kinda good" (sarcasm). No surprise the Nuggets made great strides once he showed up in Denver. He most likely would have done the same to Parker one on one.

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That's pretty well known about Billups. Doesn't mean Hill couldn't of played smarter on D. I've seen Hill play catch-up on D a lot this season. When it's against the likes Billups it hurts his team more.

To say Parker wouldn't have done better is just not true. Parker does a better job of staying alert, where as Hill would drop his guard down. He also very good in staying in front of his man and fighting around screens than hill appeared to be last night. The funny thing is i've seen Pop chew out Tony from his younger days for the mistakes i saw Hill making last night. Hill should get the same. It's all part of that learning curve.