I'm still so mad we couldn't get Nicolas Batum in 2008 draft

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Before I buy in to your position, could you name all the guys currently in the NBA that would have been adequate Bruce Bowen replacements? In fact, I'd settle for just the ones that have been available to the Spurs. I'm still sort of leaning toward the belief that they've tried damn hard to find a replacement for him, and that one simply doesn't exist that they've been able to get. It's one reason I've been lobbying for Hairston to come to San Antonio, because I think between him, Hill and Blair that the Spurs can sort of replace Bowen by committee.

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Off the top of my head, here's a few:

Mikael Pietrus
Thabo Sefalosha
Trever Ariza
Matt Barnes
Arron Affalo
Dahntay Jones
Luc Richard Mbah A Moute
Serge Ibaka

In the cases of Pietrus, Barnes and Ariza, these guys were available via free agency at one time or another - particularly Pietrus. I know people have spoken ill of him for several years now. All I know, is that I saw him making plays on both ends of the floor for an Orlando team, that prematurely found themselves in the NBA Finals. Ariza played the same role for the Fakers, but now has way too much responsibility for the Rockets. Barnes has drifted from team-to-team for about 3 years now.

Mbah A Moute and Ibaka were both drafted by their respective teams, in the past 2 years, and were not readily available to the Spurs. However, both are superb defenders. While I doubt their current teams would be stupid enough to let them get away, they both certainly bear watching.

Of course, all of these guys have some flaws. However, as complimentary players, that are good role players and can most certainly defend. Either would've been serviceable options.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Well, this offseason alone both Artest and Ariza were available to some degree...

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The Spurs used part of the MLE to pay Blair. Both Artest and Ariza got five year deals for 33 million, so even if the Spurs had the entire MLE they couldn't afford to be in the running. So without even going into whether or not either player would even come to the Spurs for equal money, what are you willing to give up (in addition to DeJuan Blair) to get either Artest or Ariza?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

The Spurs used part of the MLE to pay Blair. Both Artest and Ariza got five year deals for 33 million, so even if the Spurs had the entire MLE they couldn't afford to be in the running. So without even going into whether or not either player would even come to the Spurs for equal money, what are you willing to give up (in addition to DeJuan Blair) to get either Artest or Ariza?

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He said the Spurs didn't plan for Bowen's retirement, and he's correct. We didn't need to sign Jefferson, and could have gone instead with either of those two guys. So we shouldn't have had to give up Blair or Dice or anybody else.
Obviously hindsight is 20-20, etc etc etc

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

Off the top of my head, here's a few:

Mikael Pietrus
Thabo Sefalosha
Trever Ariza
Matt Barnes
Arron Affalo
Dahntay Jones
Luc Richard Mbah A Moute
Serge Ibaka

In the cases of Pietrus, Barnes and Ariza, these guys were available via free agency at one time or another - particularly Pietrus. I know people have spoken ill of him for several years now. All I know, is that I saw him making plays on both ends of the floor for an Orlando team, that prematurely found themselves in the NBA Finals. Ariza played the same role for the Fakers, but now has way too much responsibility for the Rockets. Barnes has drifted from team-to-team for about 3 years now.

Mbah A Moute and Ibaka were both drafted by their respective teams, in the past 2 years, and were not readily available to the Spurs. However, both are superb defenders. While I doubt their current teams would be stupid enough to let them get away, they both certainly bear watching.

Of course, all of these guys have some flaws. However, as complimentary players, that are good role players and can most certainly defend. Either would've been serviceable options.

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That's an excellent list.

The two that the Spurs had a clear shot at were Barnes and Jones, who were both free agents multiple times. The Spurs could have bid for Pietrus, but I don't know what the final numbers are nor do I remember whether they had the money to make it work, but that means maybe three guys that the Spurs could have gotten. I'm not positive that any of those guys is a better defender than Malik Hairston, muchless a motivated Richard Jefferson.

As great a job as you did putting together that list, I still maintain that finding a Bowen replacement is hard, and that the Spurs don't have one isn't evidence that they haven't been trying. Bowen casts a big shadow, and I still believe that it's going to take more than one person to step in.

Bowen's impact on the Spurs was so essential that I could've envisioned it taking at least 2 players to mitigate the void left by his absence. Again, Bogans gives good defensive effort because he has the mentality. However, it's not enough.

It's defintely hard to replace everything Bowen provided. However, my point in criticizing the Spurs is that they KNEW this day would come. They had at least 3 years to plan for the transition. It's something that I've mentioned, ad nauseum, on this board for several years.

I was so afraid this would occur. To see, the once-proud "Spur" defense reduced to virtual "swiss cheese" is hard to watch. Better defenders equal better team defense, and the Spurs simply do not have capable defenders anymore.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

He said the Spurs didn't plan for Bowen's retirement, and he's correct. We didn't need to sign Jefferson, and could have gone instead with either of those two guys. So we shouldn't have had to give up Blair or Dice or anybody else.
Obviously hindsight is 20-20, etc etc etc

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Also, the Spurs traded for Jefferson. You can't give up a retiring guy and two old forwards for a free agent or a good player with a good contract. The Spurs have been working on trying to find a Bowen replacement for years, and Batum was their best shot.

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not Michael Finley to the Heat for Dorell Wright? That gets Miami under the luxury tax.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Also, the Spurs traded for Jefferson. You can't give up a retiring guy and two old forwards for a free agent or a good player with a good contract. The Spurs have been working on trying to find a Bowen replacement for years, and Batum was their best shot.

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not Michael Finley to the Heat for Dorell Wright? That gets Miami under the luxury tax.

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That's the point right there. Batum was probably their best shot. I'm hopeful the Spurs will focus "solely" on this position again in the next draft. However, it's unlikely we'll see another player of Batum's skills and length, anytime soon.

I still don't get the love for Mickael Pietrus. He was bad last regular season and is playing even worse this regular season. He's a below average offense player and an undisciplined defensive player. Yeah, great athlete and can play very well when he's hot but overall he's an extremely average player and not worth his salary. He was on fire for part of the playoffs last year but the rest of his time on the Magic has been a disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not Michael Finley to the Heat for Dorell Wright? That gets Miami under the luxury tax.

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Well, I think after the next 4 games or so we'll know if we need to take a desperate swat and anything that's available out there... I still like our roster, but like Pop said, they don't play a lick of defense sometimes...

The "defensive stopper" role really isn't THAT difficult to find IMO..it's not something you have to get in the lottery or even in the mid-1st round..yes, you can find a lot of them there, but you can also find A LOT of "stoppers" in the 2nd round, and some of them aren't even drafted at all..there's a large list of these guys, it's not just a couple of guys..I'm not talking about Bruce Bowen-caliber stoppers, I'm talking about guys that can legitimately fill the role enough to at least be passable defenders on a good defensive team..

If you find a guy with a role player mentality, a lot of energy and hard work, and a guy that has 2 of the following 3: length/athleticism/lateral quickness, then you can have a passable defensive stopper..

Part of the problem with the Spurs is that they haven't tried to develop younger players as stoppers since Bowen has gotten old, instead choosing to go with guys that are more experienced..Ime was 30 when the Spurs signed him, and now they went after Bogans, another 30 year old(maybe 29?)..

Hairston SHOULD have been given this role to start the season..he has very good athleticism and lateral quickness, and he's also a hard worker/energy guy..guys like that are easy fillers that can allow the FO and the rest of the team to focus on different needs and positions..

Just in this era alone, we've seen previous undrafted players like Mo Evans, Raja Bell and Bruce Bowen become very good defensive stoppers..right now, we have 2nd round picks like Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes, Luc Mbah a Moute as defensive stoppers for their teams..you can find these types of guys in various places..they just have to have the aspects I mentioned + a good defensive system and situation..the Spurs have a good defensive system and situation for a young defender to thrive in the league, but unfortunately, we don't have a coach that has the same mentality unless he has no other options..

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Originally Posted by timvp

I still don't get the love for Mickael Pietrus. He was bad last regular season and is playing even worse this regular season. He's a below average offense player and an undisciplined defensive player. Yeah, great athlete and can play very well when he's hot but overall he's an extremely average player and not worth his salary. He was on fire for part of the playoffs last year but the rest of his time on the Magic has been a disappointment.

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Yeah, I heard all that before. All I know is what I saw in the playoffs and the Finals.

As far as the Spurs are concerned, what I see now is a core of players who cannot keep a parade of opposing players out of the paint.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I still don't get the love for Mickael Pietrus. He was bad last regular season and is playing even worse this regular season. He's a below average offense player and an undisciplined defensive player. Yeah, great athlete and can play very well when he's hot but overall he's an extremely average player and not worth his salary. He was on fire for part of the playoffs last year but the rest of his time on the Magic has been a disappointment.

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who cares about RS ?

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Originally Posted by timvp

I still don't get the love for Mickael Pietrus. He was bad last regular season and is playing even worse this regular season. He's a below average offense player and an undisciplined defensive player. Yeah, great athlete and can play very well when he's hot but overall he's an extremely average player and not worth his salary. He was on fire for part of the playoffs last year but the rest of his time on the Magic has been a disappointment.

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I agree with you on Pietrus, he's a great athlete sure and inconsistant too, but is still better than bogans, jefferson in defensive role.
He isn't the best option for sure but still better than anyone in the team right now in 3spot unfortunately...
And under Pop who knows he would learn discipline.

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Originally Posted by ginobili fan

I agree with you on Pietrus, he's a great athlete sure and inconsistant too, but is still better than bogans, jefferson in defensive role.
He isn't the best option for sure but still better than anyone in the team right now in 3spot unfortunately...
And under Pop who knows he would learn discipline.

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If Jefferson doesn't have the discipline to play defense under Pop then what hope is there for Pietrus?

Bowen Replacement: Corey Brewer.

The negative on Pietrus has been his offensive inconsistency this year and he has also been plagued with bouts of turnovers and bad shot selections, which has caused Van Gundy to drop him from the starting lineup in favor of the consistent Matt Barnes. Kind of similar to Keith Bogans' struggles.

That said, the positives of MP is he a heckuva defensive player who has the agility, size and length to guard a greater variety of matchups, and especially those bigger wings of the league that tend to take a shit all over Bogans.

The other thing about Pietrus I've noticed is the guy always seems to hit big shots when the magic need one, and plays his best in the biggest games and biggest stages (playoffs). Which more than justifies his salary IMO.

He is like the anti-Bonner.

Every player that comes to you has some flaws. That's what you have coaches for - to instill some structure, discipline and put players in positions to be successful. Besides, any player that played for Nellie too long is bound to have some "dumb-ass" in him.

If the spurs wanted him all that bad they should have moved up in the draft with a trade and got him.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not Michael Finley to the Heat for Dorell Wright? That gets Miami under the luxury tax.

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Can someone please tell me why this doesn't make as much sense as I think it does?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Can someone please tell me why this doesn't make as much sense as I think it does?

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It would take more to get Dorrell Wright, who has taken over being the first SG/SF off the bench in favor of James Jones and Daequan Cook.

His stock has gone up since the beginning of the season when that may have been an option.

If Miami is interested in getting under the cap, the bench players that aren't getting playing time are more available.

Pop probably wouldn't trade Finley for Lebron, let alone Dorrell Wright..

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

It would take more to get Dorrell Wright, who has taken over being the first SG/SF off the bench in favor of James Jones and Daequan Cook.

His stock has gone up since the beginning of the season when that may have been an option.

If Miami is interested in getting under the cap, the bench players that aren't getting playing time are more available.

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So throw in a second round pick with it. They're saving 7 million dollars in the transaction, get a three point shooter who can play exactly the same position, and they've already got giant banners of Finley ready to roll out.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

So throw in a second round pick with it. They're saving 7 million dollars in the transaction, get a three point shooter who can play exactly the same position, and they've already got giant banners of Finley ready to roll out.

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If that was the case and a 2nd rounder was all it took in addition to Finley, Spurs would be stupid not to do it.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

If that was the case and a 2nd rounder was all it took in addition to Finley, Spurs would be stupid not to do it.

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And probably have already asked and been laughed at. Doesn't change the fact that it's a good trade for both teams. Pat Riley may still be sore at providing the Spurs their last all-world defender.