The best way to think of Mahinmi is a Elson with a higher potential? Can someone remind me of why we gave away Elson?
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The best way to think of Mahinmi is a Elson with a higher potential? Can someone remind me of why we gave away Elson?
elson sucked.
In the one-and-a-half games I've seen him play so far this year, Ian seemed to make pretty good rotations, which is not something Elson was known for.
I'm grateful for the 4 rings Pop helped the Spurs win, but I don't understand what the heck he's thinking sometimes.
But you have to admit the Elson had a lot of energy especially during the finals.
elson was in the kurt thomas trade a couple years ago. they're equal as far as video game ratings lol.
idk, elson was extremely athletic for his size. they said he could beat everybody on the team but tony parker in a race. how athletic is mahinmi considered to be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignatedT
In every game he played, Elson appeared to have been given the objectives and rules of basketball immediately before hitting the court.
Ian Mahinmi = Francisco Elson?
We'll never really know, because Ian never plays.
No, Elson actually got a shot to prove he sucked. Mahinmi hasn't even gotten the chance.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Whisky Dog
Another difference . . . Elson had already proven who he was as a player before the Spurs even offered him a deal. He successfully proved he was a 30 year old 3rd string center for Denver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisky Dog
So the Spurs offered him $3 million a year and prayed to God that Denver wouldn't match.
Ian will be better than Elson. Hell, Ian's Points+Rebounding total against NJ alone was better than all but 2 of Elson's games as a Spur and he had over 50 career starts as a Spur.
If Ian was 30 and a proven fringe player . . . his Spur career would be very different.
All I know is the 15 & 9 he racked up versus the Nets. During that game, he displayed a nice touch around the basket, a little 10-12 ft face up jumper from the baseline, and he can block/alter shots. That much I know.
Outside of that, I don't know what the kid has. The body of work is not complete. However, I'm not going to believe he can't play until I see more of hiim for myself.
Because Pop preferred Finley at Power Forward and TD at Center...Quote:
Originally Posted by 007nites
Elson reminded me of a baby deer when he played. Legs and speed but had no idea what to do with any of it, stumbling awkwardly around the court. He had his moments but they were FEW and far between. He could run the court but had the basketball IQ of a turnip and seemed like he had no idea what to do with his athleticism.
I'm not a huge fan of Ian, but I still would like to see him at least get a shot to prove he sucks like Elson did. During preseason a friend asked how did Mahimi look and I said "Elson 2.0" Since then he did have the Jersey game but not really any other body of work. Oh wait, Atlanta picked him to shoot Tony's free throws when he went down. Give him some run, if he sucks keep him on the bench.
Didn't Sisco help win a ring?
Cisco helped with the ring in 2007 about as much as Tony Massenburg helped in 2005.
Strictly a guess here, but Mahimni must suck at practice too. Or at the very least Mahimni can't get Pop's system down, whether thats defensive rotations, the playbook,shows not consistant enough, etc... Doesn't say much for Mahimni if a rookie like Blair passed him in the rotation. In the future I can't see Mahimni getting anything but garbage minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sobe_Kucks
I remember in the September when that little article came out with McDyess talking about how impressive Ian was in practice, with Ratliff making similar comments IIRC..
This is also the same team that had Hairston immediately on the Inactive List despite significantly outplaying Bogans in preseason and knowing the system better..
The same team that had Jacque Vaughn playing ahead of Hill last year until Pop ran out of options and played him in the last few games of the year..
I just hope Blair isn't given the same treatment for the 2nd half of the season..
I don't buy the 'not good enough in practice so that's why they don't play' line that a lot of people here like to use..this team simply doesn't like the youth approach unless there are no other options..experience>youth for the Spurs..
Ian's situation is the most puzzling of all..it clearly has something to do with non-basketball related problems, probably related to the Spurs not picking up his option, so they probably feel like there is no point of playing him since another team is going to sign him in the off-season anyways and they wouldn't make a better offer..I don't know the real reason, just speculating and trying to figure it out..he may not end up being good enough, but not getting a chance is ridiculous..shit, I bet Ian blocked too many of Finley's shots in practice and Pop hasn't gotten over it yet..
Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson? I hope not. No disrespect at Elson, because he did have some good sides for us.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by EricB
And the dumb just keeps on comin.
Wow, even Mike Woodson is part of the "Free Ian Mahinmi" movement. :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sobe_Kucks
Perhaps Pop is bound and determined to win a championship playing the "matchup game" and doesn't care if somebody on the team can contribute to just "winning" a game?
On second thought...Nah...nobody in their right mind would ever do that. Perhaps Mahinmi has other issues other than being tall, athletic, and quick that keeps him on the bench.
He must just be terrible in practice. And you'd think he has to be utterly wretched to not even get a nod when the Spurs could use a rebound or a block here and there. That there's been zero attempt to work him in means he has to really be a bad basketball player and bad teammate when the rest of us don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpurNation
I'm not sure about the bad teammate part. He appears to be an easy going person. But the really bad basketball player part has to be the case for not getting playing time when the Spurs on many occasions could use somebody with his physical makeup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
On a common thought...What does that say about Ratliff?
Ian seems like a smart enough guy, who does everything very well on both ends, and like most young bigs, simply needs some time on the floor to get his fouling troubles out of his system. The only thing I can think of that might make sense is that Mahinmi is persona non grata due to Pop's seeming inability to stomach foul trouble, particularly this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpurNation
Latif's record over the last several years is a guy who plays at a very high level when healthy, regardless of when that is, and who suffers debilitating injuries that keep him out for extended periods. Pop is likely saving Latif for a clash with Bynum and Gasol, and trots him out periodically just to keep him interested and to keep his timing up while praying that one of his ligaments doesn't rupture.
I was thinking the same thing. The timing part IS crucial though. The Spurs are very close to not making the playoffs if the RRT doesn't and the rest of a very demanding schedule doesn't produce some consistantcy and wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Using a healthy Ratliff against the Lakers just might not be an option if the Spurs can't find a way to make the playoffs.
Yep...I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the front office realized they made a mistake by not picking up his option.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
Now, they are trying to make it look like there is something wrong with him, so they can re-sign him to a longer term on the cheap. It's a reach, but I'm just trying to make sense of why he's not getting any burn.
And I don't buy the "he's terrible at practice" excuse. After after all it's just
That's a shitty thing to do if that's the case. He's going to get a better offer than the Spurs can give him based simply on the game against the Nets combined with his size and athletecism. If they fucked up by not picking up his option, then they're just compunding it by wasting the time he's here. Besides, if they're going to do that, Mahinmi will take less money just to get the fuck out of San Antonio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School 44
Or maybe they didn't pick up his option for a reason. Round and round we go...Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School 44
Nobody on the board knows for certain, so we may as well trust the people who's job it is to make this team competitive.
And maybe people who blindly trust the coaching staff never to make a mistake and never to have an ulterior motive should refrain from posting in speculation threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar
We're both blind, champ -- what's the difference between a positive assertion and a negative one? It all amounts to bullshit in the end :toastQuote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
I agree. I'm just running out ideas why an athletic, young big the Spurs invested some time in, isn't getting a least getting a chance, especially after the Nets game. Then to further the insult (to Mahinmi), Bonner and Finley come back from injury and immediately get time...huh? What's Pop thinking? What's Mahinmi thinking? What are the other players thinking, particularly Duncan? When his potential defensive help is languishing on the bench. Again, I'm not setting up Ian as the savior, I just want him to have a REASONABLE chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
So I'm still puzzled as to why you waste your precious time in such a bullshit thread if you actually believe it to be bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar
I'm all for playing Ian and giving him a shot to see if he can contribute. At least for about 8-10 a game. The Spurs (Pop) doesn't have a set rotation yet and is obviously trying different things. Why not give Ian a shot during this whole experimenting period?
What gets me is why did Pop play him against New Jersey? He did a solid job against the. Its obvious New Jersey is the worst team in the NBA, but still the Nets are NBA talent and Ian did his thing. Why play him against the Nets and then put him back on the bench to rot? Was Pop showcasing him? Did Pop not like what he saw? If so, what about Ian's game didn't he like? Its very confusing.
Oh, I completely agree with you, and it's a valid theory, one I really don't like to think about being true. It fits the facts far better than anything else if we are to believe that the coaching staff sees the same things we've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School 44
The good news is that Pop has thrown young guys into the fire for the RRT in the past. If there's any hope of seeing him and/or Hairston this year, they might get their chance during the upcoming stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSpur
Pop loves veterans. PERIOD. You had an athletic PF/SF at 6-10 who could shoot the 3 and you cut him (Haislip). You still have an athletic Center who can guard quicker PF's and defend the paint to a degree+ has a nice offensive game and is 6-11(Mahinmi) but never gets any playing time. You have a 6-5 guard who is supposed to be a decent shooter and is obviously athletic and young+ plays good defense supposedly(Hairston) but never gets playing Tim either. Haislip(29)Mahinmi(23)Hairston(23). Just Imagine????
G - Parker (27) / Hill (23)
G - Hairston (23)/Manu (32)
F - RJ (29) / Possibly Hailsip/Mason Jr. ( both 29)
F - Duncan (33) / Blair or Haislip (Blair 20-21?)
C - Mahinmi (23) / Dice (35) Ratliff (36) can alternate games so that each is ready for Playoffs
Out - Bonner (to slow, doesnt rebound well for his size)
Finley ( Too old and takes Time/shots away from the younger players that actually can play D)
Bogans ( Plays hard, but is short and unathletic as in can dunk and is 29)
For the same reasons as yourself, I imagine: I wouldn't be on ST if I wasn't in the mood to voice my opinion. My opinion is there isn't enough data for us to make a good assessment of Ian, and further, that what little we do know suggests he's a foul-machine (not based on nice comments from nice-guy Dice, but on watching each of his pre-season games which came after being with the Spurs for a good while, injury notwithstanding), meaning his production would have to equal or exceed the deficit he puts the team at risk of to merit PT. Heaven forbid we trust the people who watch him play every day rather than the limited information we have as outsiders which amounts to one Pops Mensa-Bonsu standout performance and a lot of nothing else. Pop must want us to lose, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Anyway, we disagree. Noted.
I don't know why you keep looking at some conspiracy theory with Ian why the situation is damn clear:
Spurs gave a chance to Ian during the training camp. He even started a preseason game. Spurs didn't like what they saw from him and decided not to pick his option and they logically put him at the end of the depth chart.
Spurs playing him against Nets was a little weird, but if you consider that a showcase for them, it makes a lot of sense.
Trouble is, Haislip is the very definition of a veteran. Yet he got little PT and was happily cut. Maybe it had to do with his play.Quote:
Originally Posted by portnoy1
I guess Pop thinks if he plays Ian, or Hairston to develope them Spurs could lose some games. Oh wait...
I wouldn't say that, there has been zero evidence of him being a bad teammate and his overall personality just doesn't mesh with that idea. I don't care if he's a good or bad practice player, in the real burn he got he almost put up a double double on Brook Lopez. Some guys may not be great in practice but step up when the lights come on. It's inexplicable that he hasn't gotten any burn since he is exactly where this club I'd deficient - athletic size. I agree there is something behind the scenes, but I'm sure it's with Pop's prejudice against the kid for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
The Spurs were something like 19-2 when Elson got 20+ minutes in 2007.
Started the season 12-0 in games when Frankie did 20+.
Tallball with defensive nutts attatched :toast
Won a title with Frankie, altho by then he had been put in Insecure Pops *doghouse*, nonetheless he still did 12 mpg in the playoffs.
So much for Ian being unable to contribute.
Dumbass Popovich.
Yes, if it was indeed a showcase game, then maybe they don't want to take a chance on messing up the "15 and 9 display case" for interested GMs before the trade deadline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Do you think there's a chance Mahinmi will get some playing time if the deadline passes and he's still on the roster?
If that's the case they fucked up royally. You don't give up on a project that you've invested a first round pick and so much time on without seeing what he could do in a regular season stint. Even if what you are saying makes sense, why continue to bench him when he puts up a near double double and looks capable defensively more than what you've been playing in the one game you play him? It makes no sense at all, there is some alterior motive here. Has to be, unless Pop suddenly is the worst coach at 2 levels of basketball.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
If Spurs don't do a trade, I think Pop will continue to give most of the minutes to Duncan, McDyess, Blair and Bonner. I can also see him giving some minutes to Ratliff to have him ready for the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School 44
IMO, Ian will be on the inactive list when TP will be back.
Well, Ian also played against Memphis and was way less successful. And it's just too late in the season to start working with a player as green as him. Ian was done as a Spur when they decided no to pick his option for 2010-2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisky Dog
From what you're saying above, we agree about almost everything. Everyone is saying there isn't enough data to make a good assessment of Ian, and we're speculating exactly why that might be, since it makes absolutely zero sense to anyone aside from Bruno why Ian's not getting ANY minutes after the amazing performance he put up against New Jersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar
Any fool knows that young bigs have foul trouble, but you don't find out what a guy can do until you play him. Claiming that you know that his fouling would cost the team every night is foolish. If you want a guy to be able to play from day one, you don't draft an 18 year old kid from France and spend five years grooming him only to deny him playing time when he has a chance of turning the corner and contributing.
Suggesting that Pop learned enough from Ian's 15/9 performance to deny all game PT to a guy that's clearly such an unknown quantity at a position of need for this team, you've entered the EricB stratosphere of Pop-sucking.
Who's Francisco Elson? And who is Mahinmi everyone is talking about?
While you were busy rocking the condescension, you failed to acknowledge the point about Ian's play in the last summer league, which fell short of many greener centers -- even by SL standards, where the refs are more lenient and the number of fouls allowed is greater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Yeah, I don't feel too sorry for Mahinmi because he deserves a good part of the blame for why he never got a legit chance. In summer league, if he even gave a quarter of the effort he exhibits during real NBA games, the Spurs (and the rest of the league) couldn't ignore him. He has treated summer league as a way to get in some jogging and stay in shape. He ups his effort level a little bit for preseason. Playing like Wilt Chamberlain during regular season minutes is great but you have to give the team a reason to give you consistent minutes in the first place. We've seen a number of players over the year earn regular season minutes by playing hard in summer league.
Don't get me wrong, Pop deserves blame too because now the Spurs will have likely wasted a ton of time developing a player they will lose in the summer, but Mahinmi isn't the innocent victim in all of this.
Oh and Elson sucked. 2007 was the absolute peak of his career ... and that should tell you how bad he was the rest of the time. At one point this year, he had the second lowest PER in the NBA -- ahead of only Fabricio Oberto :lol
And don't forget it wasn't just the Summer League. Pop played him (or tried to) plenty during the preseason, but the guy just couldn't stay out of foul trouble. Fast forward 3 months, the guy is given another chance, and he makes the same silly mistakes against the league's scrubs.
Blair picked up fouls a lot in his 1st month and Dumbassovich did not completely ban him to the bench (altho he probably thought about it and looks like he is thinking about it again :rolleyes )Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
So for a 21 year old rookie to be banned to the bench for picking up some fouls in an otherwise excellent performance vs NJ is bullshit.
I suppose if instead of playing overagressive defense and picking up some fouls Ian would play vagina defense ala Finley he would get minutes?
pssssssh
So the other 4 players on the floor were sooooo good when Elson played 20 minutes and the Spurs went 19-2. How?Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Same question the Championship with Fabbs and Elson.
I'm so shocked hearing that from you...:sleepQuote:
Originally Posted by timvp
The rationalizing of Ian getting buried is getting funny because of how far people have to go to excuse the powers that be.
By the way . . . all those mistakes he made with fouls in SL and pre-season and NJ . . . they weren't there against Memphis.
He didn't have a single moving screen called, which was his kryptonite all SL and pre-season. He was called for 4 fouls (and we all know 2 of them were the kind of bullshit that rookies/pseudo-rooks get blasted with) . . . but he also drew 4 fouls. Including one where Randolph held him to keep him from running the court because ZR knew he couldn't keep up with him.
And re: his practicing . . . I've posted similar responses time and again which people ignore so they can continue throwing blame on Ian.
Every injury he's ever had, came from practice and and the pursuit of getting better. Torn pec = working out at the facility prior to summer league. Invisible bone chips = Grgurich's big man camp.
Check out his body from the U-18 game. He's put a lot of work into his body to get it into a NBA body. Hell, he's so rocked up he makes Elson look like a twig. That takes work ethic. As a contrast, Jackie Butler had the body of a fat disgusting slug and the slowness to match, and the Spurs loved it and gave him 2.5 per.
And anyone who watched his growth as an offensive player over the years knows that takes work. This guy had a worse offensive game than Petro. He was the ultimate remedial Stromile. But his game has changed so much, and none of that even was featured in his Nets-Mem appearances. The game progression . . . that doesn't happen with a guy who doesn't practice hard.
Work with Roy Rogers? He did that. Go to d-league? He did that. Rest his ankle on the Spurs advice? He did that. Get jerked around and not play for what, 6 weeks, only to get activated and thrown into the fire against one of the best young bigs in the entire world . . . he didn't shrink, or use being out of shape as an excuse.
Besides . . . even if he doesn't shine in practice, he wouldn't be the first player to underperform in practice/workout settings and deliver in gametime. Chris Douglas-Roberts cost himself a first-round selection and guaranteed money because he had the work-outs from hell. And the word was already out that he wasn't a good practice player. So he fell to the second. And guess what? He has a legit NBA career now. Even for a horrible Nets team, he's showing he can play.
Blair played most of his minutes in the preseason and Pop was able to take a good look at him. Plus Blair learned pretty quickly what to do in general to manage his fouls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabbs
Unlike Blair, this kid has been playing against NBA-scrub competition for a long time. And Pop has been taking a look at Ian for a couple of seasons now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabbs
The problem is that none of the fouls were from playing aggressive defense. They're all hand-check, moving screen kind of fouls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabbs
Ultimately this is going to end like Scola/Elson/Nazr/Rasho/Tolliver... he will find a team that plays him and then we'll see what he looks like... I would say that the only major screwup in the front court as far as letting players go for this FO has been Scola. That's why I give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
We can speculate as much as we want about Ian being a bust or Spurs having made a mistake by giving up on him, but truth is that none of us really knows how good Ian is. I personally believe in him and think he will be a good NBA player.
Ian will likely play for another team after the trade deadline or next year, we will then know who was right about him.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Giving up on this kid, if in fact that what it turns out to be, is a straight-up, dumb-ass move. The Spurs frontline is already inferior to the Fakers, Blazers and Nuggets. Duncan is already carrying most of the offensive and defensive burden. He can't play back-to-back games and yet this coaching staff feels they can simply throw away a young, athletic big, who can rebound and block shots. Obviously, we don't know how good he is or will be, but not knowing and kicking him out is unacceptable.
The tide of the NBA has changed considerably. Teams are no longer winning with strictly veteran-laden teams. Pop needs to "get over himself" and accept the realization that sometimes you have to match athleticism and size with the same. At this point, the Spurs will NEVER be able to contend with the Fakers.
Wait a second . . . all those guys except Scola were given chances to play. Even Tolliver was given numerous chances to play, the guy had 8 games with at least 10 minutes. And he had a 3 game stretch of over 20 minutes, with all the big men like TD, Oberto and KT healthy as well. And he wasn't a Spur after the end of January.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Mahinmi hasn't been given a damn thing.
He had one very good game against Brook Lopez.
Then he had one okay game against Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, and a little time against rookie Thabeet. Spurs fans like to hyperventilate over his line in that game but if they actually watched it again and paid attention, he wasn't bad. McDyess has had at least 10 worse games than Ian did against worse big men.
And sure, he had fouls. But like I pointed out, he didn't have any moving screens, he actually drew four fouls, and I can bring you stats from Blair's first several games and draw foul comparisons that would make people ignore my post. When it comes to these refs, most of whom never reffed a game with Ian before, he's a rook. He'll get rook calls.
Ian's season was last year. Unfortunately for him and the Spurs, he got injured and missed the entire season. There was no Blair then. The Spurs moved somewhere else. They're going to have Blair for a few more years, so obviously they rather develop that rookie instead of Ian. There's so much time you can hand to rookies on a team that's trying to contend.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
To me . . . the mistake isn't about who's right or wrong about Ian. Waiting until he does one thing or another for a different team here or abroad won't address the mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
You believe he will be a good NBA player. I believe he will be a good NBA player. Others believe that he isn't a good NBA player. The disagreements aren't where I get frustrated with the Spurs.
The sin on the Spurs part isn't that they don't think he is or can be a good NBA player. It's that they won't let him prove it to them either way.
The fault lies with the Spurs for not finding out what he can do in games. It doesn't matter if he goes on to be a scrub or an all-star. One NBA pre-season start where he gets moving screens isn't enough to judge him. Nor is a game against Brook Lopez in the regular season.
In a time and age where size matters and the Spurs have been shuffled lineups desperately to match up, even going the opposite way with micro-ball, to not at least find out if he can or can't play is a dereliction of duty. If he sucks, then he sucks. Even if he has a fine career elsewhere, the Spurs can look in the mirror and honestly say, "Hey, we put him in there for a good stretch and he just wasn't good for us." That's fine. If he sucks elsewhere, then it will just confirm what he did for the Spurs.
But refusing to find out what Ian could or couldn't do while he still had some shred of basketball conditioning left . . . is not forgivable considering everything else factored in this season.
There was time this year. Whether it was back-to-backs, TD sit-downs, McDyess sit-downs, anti-small ball, or even ludicrous moments like sitting TD for a whole quarter against Toronto, only putting him in down 12 while cold on the bench and him having to grind it for 29 minutes to get them close.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
There were opportunities this year. Hell, just having Ian active during the first month so he could get in during blowouts would have been worthwhile.
If they're actually thinking that, it's a bullshit excuse. Develop them both. Ratliff will likely be gone next year. Dice probably the year after that and Duncan who knows. It's not like they have Gasol and Bynum ahead this kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Besides everything else, this team is losing games.
Hey, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But the day the Spurs decided they were not going to pick up his option, is the day they decided that whatever minutes are left for rookies are going to go to Dejuan.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
I mean, I'm already complaining that Blair only played 10 minutes last game and I suspect it might turn into a trend. I don't like any of it.
They already decided they are not going to keep him, and so Ian is going to be a free agent. They have little incentive at all to develop him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
I see the refusal to give Ian a bigger opportunity to show what he is worth as a sign that Spurs are damn sure about their evaluation on Ian. If there isn't a single little doubt in your mind that a player isn't NBA material, there is nothing to find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
If Spurs have rightfully evaluated that Ian is a scrub, I can't really blame for having done that evaluation quickly.
If Ian ends up as a good player, it will even be a biggest blow for Spurs.
And therefore no reason to play him against New Jersey and then HOLY CRAP HE DID WHAT? HOW MANY REBOUNDS? OH SHIT. UM WELL fuck it. Just keep his ass on the bench and maybe he'll get hit by a car or something in the offseason so we don't look stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Okay, let's concede Mahinmi doesn't give much effort in practice and didn't give it his all during Summer League. Pop, out of the goodness of his heart, decides to give Mahinmi meaningful minutes in the NJ game. He does well.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Wouldn't you think he'd get a chance in the next game to see if he can duplicate the effort against the Laker bigs? Nope.
But surely, he'll get some time against the young, athletic Thunder on the backend of a back-to-back? None.
Showcase? Maybe. Hopefully, this becomes clearer after the trade deadline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
The lack of opportunities I don't think has anything to do with rookies or Blair getting developed. It's just straight opportunities. Pop has already been on record that Ratliff wasn't going to be playing some games this year . . . but still kept him on the active roster. It's a disgrace.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Ian I think isn't so much in the 'developing phase'. He's in the 'he could play' phase. At least physically he's matured. He's been around the league plenty. His performances so far this year add credibility to that. Sure he could get better, but he's at a point where if he gets minutes, he could contribute without having his hand held. He already knows the system, no developing there at least.
And re: the no incentive to play a guy who they're not keeping . . . I used to adhere to that as well.
Until I realized, "So what?". If they're not going to keep him, that doesn't mean they shouldn't use him and get whatever they can while they have him. If Ian plays well and walks to bigger money . . . so what, they have Splitter. If Ian plays like crap in limited minutes and skulks off back to France, so what, they have Splitter. The no-contract + no-bird-rights reason seems to only make sense when it's out of spite. And that's an unfortunate way to run personnel, but maybe not too surprising.
If McDyess and Blair and Bonner as a whole all start playing so awesomely that there's no time for Ian, that's cool as a reason for no Ian. Anything else is just . . . kind of lame.
I agree with most of what objective has to say. I wanted the Spurs to give Mahinmi at least 10-12 starts early in the season so they could get a good read on him. Not doing that has left the Spurs in their current predicament. Considering that McDyess starts slow and Duncan can use all the rest he can get, giving Mahinmi that chance made a lot of sense. I don't know how someone can argue Pop didn't make a mistake in this situation. As it stands now, everyone is screwed -- the Spurs wasted an ungodly amount of man hours while Mahinmi is stuck in a holding pattern when he should be actively learning the game.
But like I said, Mahinmi isn't blameless in all of this. I rewatched some of the summer league games and the guy is casually jogging up and down the court most of the time. He rarely tries hard for rebounds and commits dumb foul after dumb foul. And then I watch what he's done in the NBA and it doesn't even compare. He sprints from end to end, he crashes the boards like he's a taller version of Blair and just generally plays with 100 times more energy. Even his fouls aren't dumb on the NBA level -- they are just out being too aggressive most of the time.
Even in his interviews around summer league time, he talks about how he's just basically going through the motions. For someone looking to break into the NBA, that's just inexcusable. If he gave complete effort in summer league and was mentally engaged, he could have been a monster. Instead, he was about as uninspiring as it gets.
But yeah, even after watching him sleep through summer league, I was still all for giving Mahinmi those starts.
P.S.
This situation is even more complicated than it appears. I don't want to name names but there are two very prominent people in the organization who are extremely high on Mahinmi ... and they too are perplexed by what has transpired.
I don't think he even as to end up as a 'good player'. Even if he only ever gets to "Francisco Elson" level, that's enough to be a damnation against the Spurs. Even though Elson was a 3rd-stringer, he's still had at least a 7 year NBA career and got some team to pay him $3 million a year at one point. And that's when he didn't even start his NBA career until he was 27 and didn't have a first-round guaranteed contract to pad the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
That's a legit NBA player. Maybe a fringe NBA player, but still legit. And for better or worse was in the rotation of a title winning team. Regardless of the value of his contributions to that title, there he was.
Anything that isn't a complete wash-out Jackie Butler flameout will be a blow to the Spurs.
And speaking of reasons to doubt the Spurs evaluations . . . Fattie Coat-thief :lol
I wanted the Spurs to give Ratliff at least consistent 10 mpg or so. Some people kept claiming (and I'm sure somebody still is) that Ratliff is being saved for the playoffs, but I really don't see Pop trotting out a guy that basically has 3 games worth of playing time with the team this season. So that guy is a waste (unless he's mentoring players, which would suck because I thought we already had Finley for that).Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
If there's only 10 minutes for Blair, according to this coaching staff, then I don't think they're going to split 5 and 5 with Ian. To me, when Bonner went down it was a great chance to see Ian, and even Ratliff. But they shortened the rotation instead. I don't know what they're thinking, but we'll find out soon enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
yeah, he had a disappointing summer league, but he wasn't a complete disaster. I watched the same games and posted on the SL threads, some of the games he looked lackluster.
But when it comes to blame I cast most of it at the powers that be. Maybe Ian didn't do well in SL. Neither did Hill the first time, and Hill wasn't coming off of a year without playing and following ankle surgery. Ian in real games, even Toros games, got better and improved. I almost feel like Ian hasn't been on the Spurs goodside since before he was drafted.
I remember the summer of 06. The Spurs public rationale at the time for no Scola was that they wanted two big men, one an NBA vet with experience and one young big to groom and develop. They got them: the vet with Elson and the young big in Butler.
At the time I was confused, and it continues to this day. If they wanted a young big to develop, they had Mahinmi right there! He was done with his old team in France, they could have signed him. And he was much cheaper than what Butler cost, less than half.
Maybe they didn't want him because they didn't outright own the Toros yet. Maybe they didn't want him because they could still get Pau to pay him. But if Butler had worked out . . . where would Mahinmi have come in? How high could they have ever been on Ian?
PS - Re: the organization . . . The Coyote knows more than just pratfalls. :lol
Did you wanted that Spurs did that even with his option not picked and the perceptive of Ian being an UFA without full bird rights at the end of the year?Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
I ask again: Why wouldn't you want a guy who can contribute to contribute? You've already suggested that the Spurs think he can't play. If they don't think he can play, then they aren't worried about his impending free agency. That said, there currently exists some evidence he CAN play, and it's a guarantee that he's gone to someone else for more money than the Spurs can afford even if he never plays another minute in a Spurs uni. So once again, why not play him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
In 05-06, Ian was playing with an average team in France (Le Havre). They asked him to play with a better team and to play in the Euroleague before joining in NBA. That's why they didn't sign him that summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
I know you're asking timvp and not me but I thought I'd chime in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Yes, I wanted and would want the Spurs to do all that even with the full knowledge that they couldn't keep him.
Because they weren't going to keep him anyway. Just go ahead and use him like a Glenn Robinson. He wasn't going to be kept, he was just a specialist to be used for one season's playoff run. Splitter's coming anyway, according to most fans. And if Splitter doesn't, that frees the MLE for Ian.
And if, just if, Mahinmi played well enough that there was a public fallout from not extending him . . .
Just do the old 'pass the buck' routine like they did with Nocioni and the draft. Just leak on background to McDonald that some low-level executive screwed up the dates or specific cba-rules and the higher-ups weren't at fault. Maybe add that the person involved was reprimanded or removed from certain duties. Public relations problem solved.
Compared to his Chamberlain impersonations during his NBA games, I think it's safe to classify his SL games a disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Hill sucked but it wasn't for a lack of effort. And besides, he won his spot back with surprisingly good preseason play his rookie season.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
As for Mahinmi and the Toros, we've yet to see the existence of the Toros make an impact on the Spurs at all. They've been around a long time to have made virtually zero impact. That tells me the either the Spurs don't yet value play on the D-League level or that the level of play is so low that it doesn't allow for any true scouting.
Don't forget about Scola's supposed $15 million buyout :smchode:Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
When he's not capturing bats, releasing them in the AT&T and putting on a Batman costume he's pretty helpful.
I knew all that, but I don't think it totally explains away Butler. Butler was a center-prospect, at least size-wise. So was Ian. If Butler was a success then where would that have left Ian, other than warming the bench for Pau like he did most of the year anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I don't even think the NJ game was a Chamberlain. He didn't get the ball on the post. He didn't work his moves. He just scored off of other's set-ups, hit one jumper, ran the floor, and blocked a shot which is something he did back his rookie year in games like scrub-time against Milwaukee. He basically did the same things though perhaps better that Elson did that early game against the Mavs in 06-07, one of Elson's few good Spurs games.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
So he pretty much looked like how one would have predicted a fast, athletic big man could perform in a role on the Spurs: run the court, contest shots, finish off of passes from Manu, and so on. I don't even think his SL performances would have done anything to cause doubt that he could fill an Elson role other than the bad picks, which he's been better at in NBA games.
and that bat thing is still suspect. Alex Jones and I are on to something.
Yes. If you are going to lose him either way, might as well see what you are losing. :lol Perhaps he plays at a medium level that doesn't make him wanted on the open market but makes him valuable enough to keep around and develop further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I'm not sure Spurs see his game against Nets as an evidence he can play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Well, Ian isn't a 10 years old NBA vet. He is a young player with very few experience of the high level. I don't really see how he could have been used like Glenn Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
If Spurs wanted that Ian was able to help them for this year playoffs, it would have required to give him consistent minutes through 82 games. And it was with no guaranteed results.
Butler and Ian were very different prospects skill wise. They were likely enough place for both.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Pop said he played Mahinimi because he was concerned about complacency in the regular line up (partly because Nets were on a historic losing streak) and figured that since Mahinmi never played, Mahinmi would be guaranteed to use his rare chance at playing time aggressively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I know Pop said that but I don't buy it. If Pop wanted to have a motivated player, he would have tried Haislip. Hailsip was ahead of Ian in the depth chart and would have surely been equally motivated.Quote:
Originally Posted by senorglory
The showcase theory makes a lot of sense.
Objective has been spot on in this thread, saying what I've been saying. This is a huge fuck up and there is no other way to explain it. I get he loafed in SL and part of pre-season. What I don't get is how that matters once you see him busting ass in the regular season with production. 2 games isn't enough to judge shit, he needs consistent min for at least 15 games to see if he trends productive or not. Pop has royally fucked up many things since 2003 and all of those fuck ups are biting us in the ass now. Just add Ian to the growing list.
Huge fuck up on the part of Pop. No excuse at all not giving this guy some minutes - regardless what happens this offseason. Perhaps Pop is trying to save his sterling reputation as a basketball executive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisky Dog
Again, until I see the guy get more minutes, I'm not going to trust any speculation that the guy can't play. He'll probably go somewhere else and be a serviceable big on another team's dime. Maybe then, Pop will want to "throw up in his mouth" again - like I'm doing right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
re: Robinson compared to Mahinmi, I meant using him as a rental.
Use him and abuse him like a cheap fling. He's not 'relationship material', so just get your kicks out of him.
Because if the masses are right and Splitter comes next year, there's no room for Ian even if he got time and played well. Duncan getting his, Blair getting his in his second year, Splitter as a legit rotation player, McDyess as the crusty old vet Pop loves to play, Bonner re-signed or some other guy as the 3-point shooting big man, plus some small foward used as a smallball PF.
So just use him like rental car. Someone else may buy him off the dealer, but get the miles out of him while you got him if the other cars are running rough.
It doesn't have to be in the playoffs, but could have been done to spare Duncan games like the Toronto headscratching fest.
I agree with most of what you say. But don't you think that as something to do with Ian missing one season for an injury, then getting injured with the French team (after a careless play)?Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
One year without playing is very long for a young raw player. It should not be a surprise he had a hard time to adapt.
If this is how they showcase a player... they really suck at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
These are all elements the Spurs do not have enough of now. Obviously, this over-infatuation with "small-ball" isn't the working quite as well, Which is why it's absolutely idiotic for Pop to sit on Ian. Against certain opponents, and in certain situations, the Spurs could use such a lift.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective