Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

For the same reasons as yourself, I imagine: I wouldn't be on ST if I wasn't in the mood to voice my opinion. My opinion is there isn't enough data for us to make a good assessment of Ian, and further, that what little we do know suggests he's a foul-machine (not based on nice comments from nice-guy Dice, but on watching each of his pre-season games which came after being with the Spurs for a good while, injury notwithstanding), meaning his production would have to equal or exceed the deficit he puts the team at risk of to merit PT. Heaven forbid we trust the people who watch him play every day rather than the limited information we have as outsiders which amounts to one Pops Mensa-Bonsu standout performance and a lot of nothing else. Pop must want us to lose, right?

Anyway, we disagree. Noted.

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From what you're saying above, we agree about almost everything. Everyone is saying there isn't enough data to make a good assessment of Ian, and we're speculating exactly why that might be, since it makes absolutely zero sense to anyone aside from Bruno why Ian's not getting ANY minutes after the amazing performance he put up against New Jersey.

Any fool knows that young bigs have foul trouble, but you don't find out what a guy can do until you play him. Claiming that you know that his fouling would cost the team every night is foolish. If you want a guy to be able to play from day one, you don't draft an 18 year old kid from France and spend five years grooming him only to deny him playing time when he has a chance of turning the corner and contributing.

Suggesting that Pop learned enough from Ian's 15/9 performance to deny all game PT to a guy that's clearly such an unknown quantity at a position of need for this team, you've entered the EricB stratosphere of Pop-sucking.

Who's Francisco Elson? And who is Mahinmi everyone is talking about?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

From what you're saying above, we agree about almost everything. Everyone is saying there isn't enough data to make a good assessment of Ian, and we're speculating exactly why that might be, since it makes absolutely zero sense to anyone aside from Bruno why Ian's not getting ANY minutes after the amazing performance he put up against New Jersey.

Any fool knows that young bigs have foul trouble, but you don't find out what a guy can do until you play him. Claiming that you know that his fouling would cost the team every night is foolish. If you want a guy to be able to play from day one, you don't draft an 18 year old kid from France and spend five years grooming him only to deny him playing time when he has a chance of turning the corner and contributing.

Suggesting that Pop learned enough from Ian's 15/9 performance to deny all game PT to a guy that's clearly such an unknown quantity at a position of need for this team, you've entered the EricB stratosphere of Pop-sucking.

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While you were busy rocking the condescension, you failed to acknowledge the point about Ian's play in the last summer league, which fell short of many greener centers -- even by SL standards, where the refs are more lenient and the number of fouls allowed is greater.

Yeah, I don't feel too sorry for Mahinmi because he deserves a good part of the blame for why he never got a legit chance. In summer league, if he even gave a quarter of the effort he exhibits during real NBA games, the Spurs (and the rest of the league) couldn't ignore him. He has treated summer league as a way to get in some jogging and stay in shape. He ups his effort level a little bit for preseason. Playing like Wilt Chamberlain during regular season minutes is great but you have to give the team a reason to give you consistent minutes in the first place. We've seen a number of players over the year earn regular season minutes by playing hard in summer league.

Don't get me wrong, Pop deserves blame too because now the Spurs will have likely wasted a ton of time developing a player they will lose in the summer, but Mahinmi isn't the innocent victim in all of this.

Oh and Elson sucked. 2007 was the absolute peak of his career ... and that should tell you how bad he was the rest of the time. At one point this year, he had the second lowest PER in the NBA -- ahead of only Fabricio Oberto :lol

And don't forget it wasn't just the Summer League. Pop played him (or tried to) plenty during the preseason, but the guy just couldn't stay out of foul trouble. Fast forward 3 months, the guy is given another chance, and he makes the same silly mistakes against the league's scrubs.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And don't forget it wasn't just the Summer League. Pop played him (or tried to) plenty during the preseason, but the guy just couldn't stay out of foul trouble. Fast forward 3 months, the guy is given another chance, and he makes the same silly mistakes against the league's scrubs.

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Blair picked up fouls a lot in his 1st month and Dumbassovich did not completely ban him to the bench (altho he probably thought about it and looks like he is thinking about it again :rolleyes )

So for a 21 year old rookie to be banned to the bench for picking up some fouls in an otherwise excellent performance vs NJ is bullshit.

I suppose if instead of playing overagressive defense and picking up some fouls Ian would play vagina defense ala Finley he would get minutes?
pssssssh

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Originally Posted by timvp

Oh and Elson sucked. 2007 was the absolute peak of his career ... and that should tell you how bad he was the rest of the time. At one point this year, he had the second lowest PER in the NBA -- ahead of only Fabricio Oberto :lol

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So the other 4 players on the floor were sooooo good when Elson played 20 minutes and the Spurs went 19-2. How?

Same question the Championship with Fabbs and Elson.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Oh and Elson sucked.

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I'm so shocked hearing that from you...:sleep

The rationalizing of Ian getting buried is getting funny because of how far people have to go to excuse the powers that be.

By the way . . . all those mistakes he made with fouls in SL and pre-season and NJ . . . they weren't there against Memphis.

He didn't have a single moving screen called, which was his kryptonite all SL and pre-season. He was called for 4 fouls (and we all know 2 of them were the kind of bullshit that rookies/pseudo-rooks get blasted with) . . . but he also drew 4 fouls. Including one where Randolph held him to keep him from running the court because ZR knew he couldn't keep up with him.

And re: his practicing . . . I've posted similar responses time and again which people ignore so they can continue throwing blame on Ian.

Every injury he's ever had, came from practice and and the pursuit of getting better. Torn pec = working out at the facility prior to summer league. Invisible bone chips = Grgurich's big man camp.

Check out his body from the U-18 game. He's put a lot of work into his body to get it into a NBA body. Hell, he's so rocked up he makes Elson look like a twig. That takes work ethic. As a contrast, Jackie Butler had the body of a fat disgusting slug and the slowness to match, and the Spurs loved it and gave him 2.5 per.

And anyone who watched his growth as an offensive player over the years knows that takes work. This guy had a worse offensive game than Petro. He was the ultimate remedial Stromile. But his game has changed so much, and none of that even was featured in his Nets-Mem appearances. The game progression . . . that doesn't happen with a guy who doesn't practice hard.

Work with Roy Rogers? He did that. Go to d-league? He did that. Rest his ankle on the Spurs advice? He did that. Get jerked around and not play for what, 6 weeks, only to get activated and thrown into the fire against one of the best young bigs in the entire world . . . he didn't shrink, or use being out of shape as an excuse.

Besides . . . even if he doesn't shine in practice, he wouldn't be the first player to underperform in practice/workout settings and deliver in gametime. Chris Douglas-Roberts cost himself a first-round selection and guaranteed money because he had the work-outs from hell. And the word was already out that he wasn't a good practice player. So he fell to the second. And guess what? He has a legit NBA career now. Even for a horrible Nets team, he's showing he can play.

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

Blair picked up fouls a lot in his 1st month and Dumbassovich did not completely ban him to the bench (altho he probably thought about it and looks like he is thinking about it again :rolleyes )

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Blair played most of his minutes in the preseason and Pop was able to take a good look at him. Plus Blair learned pretty quickly what to do in general to manage his fouls.

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

So for a 21 year old rookie to be banned to the bench for picking up some fouls in an otherwise excellent performance vs NJ is bullshit.

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Unlike Blair, this kid has been playing against NBA-scrub competition for a long time. And Pop has been taking a look at Ian for a couple of seasons now.

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

I suppose if instead of playing overagressive defense and picking up some fouls Ian would play vagina defense ala Finley he would get minutes?
pssssssh

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The problem is that none of the fouls were from playing aggressive defense. They're all hand-check, moving screen kind of fouls.

Ultimately this is going to end like Scola/Elson/Nazr/Rasho/Tolliver... he will find a team that plays him and then we'll see what he looks like... I would say that the only major screwup in the front court as far as letting players go for this FO has been Scola. That's why I give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

We can speculate as much as we want about Ian being a bust or Spurs having made a mistake by giving up on him, but truth is that none of us really knows how good Ian is. I personally believe in him and think he will be a good NBA player.
Ian will likely play for another team after the trade deadline or next year, we will then know who was right about him.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Giving up on this kid, if in fact that what it turns out to be, is a straight-up, dumb-ass move. The Spurs frontline is already inferior to the Fakers, Blazers and Nuggets. Duncan is already carrying most of the offensive and defensive burden. He can't play back-to-back games and yet this coaching staff feels they can simply throw away a young, athletic big, who can rebound and block shots. Obviously, we don't know how good he is or will be, but not knowing and kicking him out is unacceptable.

The tide of the NBA has changed considerably. Teams are no longer winning with strictly veteran-laden teams. Pop needs to "get over himself" and accept the realization that sometimes you have to match athleticism and size with the same. At this point, the Spurs will NEVER be able to contend with the Fakers.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Ultimately this is going to end like Scola/Elson/Nazr/Rasho/Tolliver... he will find a team that plays him and then we'll see what he looks like... I would say that the only major screwup in the front court as far as letting players go for this FO has been Scola. That's why I give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

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Wait a second . . . all those guys except Scola were given chances to play. Even Tolliver was given numerous chances to play, the guy had 8 games with at least 10 minutes. And he had a 3 game stretch of over 20 minutes, with all the big men like TD, Oberto and KT healthy as well. And he wasn't a Spur after the end of January.

Mahinmi hasn't been given a damn thing.

He had one very good game against Brook Lopez.

Then he had one okay game against Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol, and a little time against rookie Thabeet. Spurs fans like to hyperventilate over his line in that game but if they actually watched it again and paid attention, he wasn't bad. McDyess has had at least 10 worse games than Ian did against worse big men.

And sure, he had fouls. But like I pointed out, he didn't have any moving screens, he actually drew four fouls, and I can bring you stats from Blair's first several games and draw foul comparisons that would make people ignore my post. When it comes to these refs, most of whom never reffed a game with Ian before, he's a rook. He'll get rook calls.

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Originally Posted by objective

Wait a second . . . all those guys except Scola were given chances to play. Even Tolliver was given numerous chances to play, the guy had 8 games with at least 10 minutes. And he had a 3 game stretch of over 20 minutes, with all the big men like TD, Oberto and KT healthy as well. And he wasn't a Spur after the end of January.

Mahinmi hasn't been given a damn thing.

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Ian's season was last year. Unfortunately for him and the Spurs, he got injured and missed the entire season. There was no Blair then. The Spurs moved somewhere else. They're going to have Blair for a few more years, so obviously they rather develop that rookie instead of Ian. There's so much time you can hand to rookies on a team that's trying to contend.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

We can speculate as much as we want about Ian being a bust or Spurs having made a mistake by giving up on him, but truth is that none of us really knows how good Ian is. I personally believe in him and think he will be a good NBA player.
Ian will likely play for another team after the trade deadline or next year, we will then know who was right about him.

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To me . . . the mistake isn't about who's right or wrong about Ian. Waiting until he does one thing or another for a different team here or abroad won't address the mistake.

You believe he will be a good NBA player. I believe he will be a good NBA player. Others believe that he isn't a good NBA player. The disagreements aren't where I get frustrated with the Spurs.

The sin on the Spurs part isn't that they don't think he is or can be a good NBA player. It's that they won't let him prove it to them either way.

The fault lies with the Spurs for not finding out what he can do in games. It doesn't matter if he goes on to be a scrub or an all-star. One NBA pre-season start where he gets moving screens isn't enough to judge him. Nor is a game against Brook Lopez in the regular season.

In a time and age where size matters and the Spurs have been shuffled lineups desperately to match up, even going the opposite way with micro-ball, to not at least find out if he can or can't play is a dereliction of duty. If he sucks, then he sucks. Even if he has a fine career elsewhere, the Spurs can look in the mirror and honestly say, "Hey, we put him in there for a good stretch and he just wasn't good for us." That's fine. If he sucks elsewhere, then it will just confirm what he did for the Spurs.

But refusing to find out what Ian could or couldn't do while he still had some shred of basketball conditioning left . . . is not forgivable considering everything else factored in this season.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Ian's season was last year. Unfortunately for him and the Spurs, he got injured and missed the entire season. There was no Blair then. The Spurs moved somewhere else. They're going to have Blair for a few more years, so obviously they rather develop that rookie instead of Ian. There's so much time you can hand to rookies on a team that's trying to contend.

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There was time this year. Whether it was back-to-backs, TD sit-downs, McDyess sit-downs, anti-small ball, or even ludicrous moments like sitting TD for a whole quarter against Toronto, only putting him in down 12 while cold on the bench and him having to grind it for 29 minutes to get them close.

There were opportunities this year. Hell, just having Ian active during the first month so he could get in during blowouts would have been worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Ian's season was last year. Unfortunately for him and the Spurs, he got injured and missed the entire season. There was no Blair then. The Spurs moved somewhere else. They're going to have Blair for a few more years, so obviously they rather develop that rookie instead of Ian. There's so much time you can hand to rookies on a team that's trying to contend.

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If they're actually thinking that, it's a bullshit excuse. Develop them both. Ratliff will likely be gone next year. Dice probably the year after that and Duncan who knows. It's not like they have Gasol and Bynum ahead this kid.

Besides everything else, this team is losing games.

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Originally Posted by objective

There was time this year. Whether it was back-to-backs, TD sit-downs, McDyess sit-downs, anti-small ball, or even ludicrous moments like sitting TD for a whole quarter against Toronto, only putting him in down 12 while cold on the bench and him having to grind it for 29 minutes to get them close.

There were opportunities this year. Hell, just having Ian active during the first month so he could get in during blowouts would have been worthwhile.

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Hey, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But the day the Spurs decided they were not going to pick up his option, is the day they decided that whatever minutes are left for rookies are going to go to Dejuan.

I mean, I'm already complaining that Blair only played 10 minutes last game and I suspect it might turn into a trend. I don't like any of it.

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

If they're actually thinking that, it's a bullshit excuse. Develop them both. Ratliff will likely be gone next year. Dice probably the year after that and Duncan who knows. It's not like they have Gasol and Bynum ahead this kid.

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They already decided they are not going to keep him, and so Ian is going to be a free agent. They have little incentive at all to develop him now.

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Originally Posted by objective

But refusing to find out what Ian could or couldn't do while he still had some shred of basketball conditioning left . . . is not forgivable considering everything else factored in this season.

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I see the refusal to give Ian a bigger opportunity to show what he is worth as a sign that Spurs are damn sure about their evaluation on Ian. If there isn't a single little doubt in your mind that a player isn't NBA material, there is nothing to find out.

If Spurs have rightfully evaluated that Ian is a scrub, I can't really blame for having done that evaluation quickly.

If Ian ends up as a good player, it will even be a biggest blow for Spurs.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I see the refusal to give Ian a bigger opportunity to show what he is worth as a sign that Spurs are damn sure about their evaluation on Ian. If there isn't a single little doubt in your mind that a player isn't NBA material, there is nothing to find out.

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And therefore no reason to play him against New Jersey and then HOLY CRAP HE DID WHAT? HOW MANY REBOUNDS? OH SHIT. UM WELL fuck it. Just keep his ass on the bench and maybe he'll get hit by a car or something in the offseason so we don't look stupid.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Yeah, I don't feel too sorry for Mahinmi because he deserves a good part of the blame for why he never got a legit chance. In summer league, if he even gave a quarter of the effort he exhibits during real NBA games, the Spurs (and the rest of the league) couldn't ignore him. He has treated summer league as a way to get in some jogging and stay in shape. He ups his effort level a little bit for preseason. Playing like Wilt Chamberlain during regular season minutes is great but you have to give the team a reason to give you consistent minutes in the first place. We've seen a number of players over the year earn regular season minutes by playing hard in summer league.

Don't get me wrong, Pop deserves blame too because now the Spurs will have likely wasted a ton of time developing a player they will lose in the summer, but Mahinmi isn't the innocent victim in all of this.

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Okay, let's concede Mahinmi doesn't give much effort in practice and didn't give it his all during Summer League. Pop, out of the goodness of his heart, decides to give Mahinmi meaningful minutes in the NJ game. He does well.

Wouldn't you think he'd get a chance in the next game to see if he can duplicate the effort against the Laker bigs? Nope.

But surely, he'll get some time against the young, athletic Thunder on the backend of a back-to-back? None.

Showcase? Maybe. Hopefully, this becomes clearer after the trade deadline.