Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElNono
Hey, I don't necessarily disagree with you. But the day the Spurs decided they were not going to pick up his option, is the day they decided that whatever minutes are left for rookies are going to go to Dejuan.
I mean, I'm already complaining that Blair only played 10 minutes last game and I suspect it might turn into a trend. I don't like any of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElNono
They already decided they are not going to keep him, and so Ian is going to be a free agent. They have little incentive at all to develop him now.
The lack of opportunities I don't think has anything to do with rookies or Blair getting developed. It's just straight opportunities. Pop has already been on record that Ratliff wasn't going to be playing some games this year . . . but still kept him on the active roster. It's a disgrace.
Ian I think isn't so much in the 'developing phase'. He's in the 'he could play' phase. At least physically he's matured. He's been around the league plenty. His performances so far this year add credibility to that. Sure he could get better, but he's at a point where if he gets minutes, he could contribute without having his hand held. He already knows the system, no developing there at least.
And re: the no incentive to play a guy who they're not keeping . . . I used to adhere to that as well.
Until I realized, "So what?". If they're not going to keep him, that doesn't mean they shouldn't use him and get whatever they can while they have him. If Ian plays well and walks to bigger money . . . so what, they have Splitter. If Ian plays like crap in limited minutes and skulks off back to France, so what, they have Splitter. The no-contract + no-bird-rights reason seems to only make sense when it's out of spite. And that's an unfortunate way to run personnel, but maybe not too surprising.
If McDyess and Blair and Bonner as a whole all start playing so awesomely that there's no time for Ian, that's cool as a reason for no Ian. Anything else is just . . . kind of lame.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
I agree with most of what objective has to say. I wanted the Spurs to give Mahinmi at least 10-12 starts early in the season so they could get a good read on him. Not doing that has left the Spurs in their current predicament. Considering that McDyess starts slow and Duncan can use all the rest he can get, giving Mahinmi that chance made a lot of sense. I don't know how someone can argue Pop didn't make a mistake in this situation. As it stands now, everyone is screwed -- the Spurs wasted an ungodly amount of man hours while Mahinmi is stuck in a holding pattern when he should be actively learning the game.
But like I said, Mahinmi isn't blameless in all of this. I rewatched some of the summer league games and the guy is casually jogging up and down the court most of the time. He rarely tries hard for rebounds and commits dumb foul after dumb foul. And then I watch what he's done in the NBA and it doesn't even compare. He sprints from end to end, he crashes the boards like he's a taller version of Blair and just generally plays with 100 times more energy. Even his fouls aren't dumb on the NBA level -- they are just out being too aggressive most of the time.
Even in his interviews around summer league time, he talks about how he's just basically going through the motions. For someone looking to break into the NBA, that's just inexcusable. If he gave complete effort in summer league and was mentally engaged, he could have been a monster. Instead, he was about as uninspiring as it gets.
But yeah, even after watching him sleep through summer league, I was still all for giving Mahinmi those starts.
P.S.
This situation is even more complicated than it appears. I don't want to name names but there are two very prominent people in the organization who are extremely high on Mahinmi ... and they too are perplexed by what has transpired.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
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Originally Posted by
Bruno
If Spurs have rightfully evaluated that Ian is a scrub, I can't really blame for having done that evaluation quickly.
If Ian ends up as a good player, it will even be a biggest blow for Spurs.
I don't think he even as to end up as a 'good player'. Even if he only ever gets to "Francisco Elson" level, that's enough to be a damnation against the Spurs. Even though Elson was a 3rd-stringer, he's still had at least a 7 year NBA career and got some team to pay him $3 million a year at one point. And that's when he didn't even start his NBA career until he was 27 and didn't have a first-round guaranteed contract to pad the years.
That's a legit NBA player. Maybe a fringe NBA player, but still legit. And for better or worse was in the rotation of a title winning team. Regardless of the value of his contributions to that title, there he was.
Anything that isn't a complete wash-out Jackie Butler flameout will be a blow to the Spurs.
And speaking of reasons to doubt the Spurs evaluations . . . Fattie Coat-thief :lol
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
The lack of opportunities I don't think has anything to do with rookies or Blair getting developed. It's just straight opportunities. Pop has already been on record that Ratliff wasn't going to be playing some games this year . . . but still kept him on the active roster. It's a disgrace.
I wanted the Spurs to give Ratliff at least consistent 10 mpg or so. Some people kept claiming (and I'm sure somebody still is) that Ratliff is being saved for the playoffs, but I really don't see Pop trotting out a guy that basically has 3 games worth of playing time with the team this season. So that guy is a waste (unless he's mentoring players, which would suck because I thought we already had Finley for that).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
And re: the no incentive to play a guy who they're not keeping . . . I used to adhere to that as well.
Until I realized, "So what?". If they're not going to keep him, that doesn't mean they shouldn't use him and get whatever they can while they have him. If Ian plays well and walks to bigger money . . . so what, they have Splitter. If Ian plays like crap in limited minutes and skulks off back to France, so what, they have Splitter. The no-contract + no-bird-rights reason seems to only make sense when it's out of spite. And that's an unfortunate way to run personnel, but maybe not too surprising.
If McDyess and Blair and Bonner as a whole all start playing so awesomely that there's no time for Ian, that's cool as a reason for no Ian. Anything else is just . . . kind of lame.
If there's only 10 minutes for Blair, according to this coaching staff, then I don't think they're going to split 5 and 5 with Ian. To me, when Bonner went down it was a great chance to see Ian, and even Ratliff. But they shortened the rotation instead. I don't know what they're thinking, but we'll find out soon enough.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
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Originally Posted by
timvp
I agree with most of what objective has to say. I wanted the Spurs to give Mahinmi at least 10-12 starts early in the season so they could get a good read on him. Not doing that has left the Spurs in their current predicament. Considering that McDyess starts slow and Duncan can use all the rest he can get, giving Mahinmi that chance made a lot of sense. I don't know how someone can argue Pop didn't make a mistake in this situation. As it stands now, everyone is screwed -- the Spurs wasted an ungodly amount of man hours while Mahinmi is stuck in a holding pattern when he should be actively learning the game.
But like I said, Mahinmi isn't blameless in all of this. I rewatched some of the summer league games and the guy is casually jogging up and down the court most of the time. He rarely tries hard for rebounds and commits dumb foul after dumb foul. And then I watch what he's done in the NBA and it doesn't even compare. He sprints from end to end, he crashes the boards like he's a taller version of Blair and just generally plays with 100 times more energy. Even his fouls aren't dumb on the NBA level -- they are just out being too aggressive most of the time.
Even in his interviews around summer league time, he talks about how he's just basically going through the motions. For someone looking to break into the NBA, that's just inexcusable. If he gave complete effort in summer league and was mentally engaged, he could have been a monster. Instead, he was about as uninspiring as it gets.
But yeah, even after watching him sleep through summer league, I was still all for giving Mahinmi those starts.
P.S.
This situation is even more complicated than it appears. I don't want to name names but there are two very prominent people in the organization who are extremely high on Mahinmi ... and they too are perplexed by what has transpired.
yeah, he had a disappointing summer league, but he wasn't a complete disaster. I watched the same games and posted on the SL threads, some of the games he looked lackluster.
But when it comes to blame I cast most of it at the powers that be. Maybe Ian didn't do well in SL. Neither did Hill the first time, and Hill wasn't coming off of a year without playing and following ankle surgery. Ian in real games, even Toros games, got better and improved. I almost feel like Ian hasn't been on the Spurs goodside since before he was drafted.
I remember the summer of 06. The Spurs public rationale at the time for no Scola was that they wanted two big men, one an NBA vet with experience and one young big to groom and develop. They got them: the vet with Elson and the young big in Butler.
At the time I was confused, and it continues to this day. If they wanted a young big to develop, they had Mahinmi right there! He was done with his old team in France, they could have signed him. And he was much cheaper than what Butler cost, less than half.
Maybe they didn't want him because they didn't outright own the Toros yet. Maybe they didn't want him because they could still get Pau to pay him. But if Butler had worked out . . . where would Mahinmi have come in? How high could they have ever been on Ian?
PS - Re: the organization . . . The Coyote knows more than just pratfalls. :lol
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timvp
I wanted the Spurs to give Mahinmi at least 10-12 starts early in the season so they could get a good read on him.
Did you wanted that Spurs did that even with his option not picked and the perceptive of Ian being an UFA without full bird rights at the end of the year?
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
Did you wanted that Spurs did that even with his option not picked and the perceptive of Ian being an UFA without full bird rights at the end of the year?
I ask again: Why wouldn't you want a guy who can contribute to contribute? You've already suggested that the Spurs think he can't play. If they don't think he can play, then they aren't worried about his impending free agency. That said, there currently exists some evidence he CAN play, and it's a guarantee that he's gone to someone else for more money than the Spurs can afford even if he never plays another minute in a Spurs uni. So once again, why not play him?
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
I remember the summer of 06. The Spurs public rationale at the time for no Scola was that they wanted two big men, one an NBA vet with experience and one young big to groom and develop. They got them: the vet with Elson and the young big in Butler.
At the time I was confused, and it continues to this day. If they wanted a young big to develop, they had Mahinmi right there! He was done with his old team in France, they could have signed him. And he was much cheaper than what Butler cost, less than half.
In 05-06, Ian was playing with an average team in France (Le Havre). They asked him to play with a better team and to play in the Euroleague before joining in NBA. That's why they didn't sign him that summer.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
Did you wanted that Spurs did that even with his option not picked and the perceptive of Ian being an UFA without full bird rights at the end of the year?
I know you're asking timvp and not me but I thought I'd chime in.
Yes, I wanted and would want the Spurs to do all that even with the full knowledge that they couldn't keep him.
Because they weren't going to keep him anyway. Just go ahead and use him like a Glenn Robinson. He wasn't going to be kept, he was just a specialist to be used for one season's playoff run. Splitter's coming anyway, according to most fans. And if Splitter doesn't, that frees the MLE for Ian.
And if, just if, Mahinmi played well enough that there was a public fallout from not extending him . . .
Just do the old 'pass the buck' routine like they did with Nocioni and the draft. Just leak on background to McDonald that some low-level executive screwed up the dates or specific cba-rules and the higher-ups weren't at fault. Maybe add that the person involved was reprimanded or removed from certain duties. Public relations problem solved.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
yeah, he had a disappointing summer league, but he wasn't a complete disaster.
Compared to his Chamberlain impersonations during his NBA games, I think it's safe to classify his SL games a disaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
But when it comes to blame I cast most of it at the powers that be. Maybe Ian didn't do well in SL. Neither did Hill the first time, and Hill wasn't coming off of a year without playing and following ankle surgery. Ian in real games, even Toros games, got better and improved. I almost feel like Ian hasn't been on the Spurs goodside since before he was drafted.
Hill sucked but it wasn't for a lack of effort. And besides, he won his spot back with surprisingly good preseason play his rookie season.
As for Mahinmi and the Toros, we've yet to see the existence of the Toros make an impact on the Spurs at all. They've been around a long time to have made virtually zero impact. That tells me the either the Spurs don't yet value play on the D-League level or that the level of play is so low that it doesn't allow for any true scouting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
I remember the summer of 06. The Spurs public rationale at the time for no Scola was that they wanted two big men, one an NBA vet with experience and one young big to groom and develop.
Don't forget about Scola's supposed $15 million buyout :smchode:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
PS - Re: the organization . . . The Coyote knows more than just pratfalls. :lol
When he's not capturing bats, releasing them in the AT&T and putting on a Batman costume he's pretty helpful.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
In 05-06, Ian was playing with an average team in France (Le Havre). They asked him to play with a better team and to play in the Euroleague before joining in NBA. That's why they didn't sign him that summer.
I knew all that, but I don't think it totally explains away Butler. Butler was a center-prospect, at least size-wise. So was Ian. If Butler was a success then where would that have left Ian, other than warming the bench for Pau like he did most of the year anyway.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timvp
Compared to his Chamberlain impersonations during his NBA games, I think it's safe to classify his SL games a disaster.
...
When he's not capturing bats, releasing them in the AT&T and putting on a Batman costume he's pretty helpful.
I don't even think the NJ game was a Chamberlain. He didn't get the ball on the post. He didn't work his moves. He just scored off of other's set-ups, hit one jumper, ran the floor, and blocked a shot which is something he did back his rookie year in games like scrub-time against Milwaukee. He basically did the same things though perhaps better that Elson did that early game against the Mavs in 06-07, one of Elson's few good Spurs games.
So he pretty much looked like how one would have predicted a fast, athletic big man could perform in a role on the Spurs: run the court, contest shots, finish off of passes from Manu, and so on. I don't even think his SL performances would have done anything to cause doubt that he could fill an Elson role other than the bad picks, which he's been better at in NBA games.
and that bat thing is still suspect. Alex Jones and I are on to something.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
Did you wanted that Spurs did that even with his option not picked and the perceptive of Ian being an UFA without full bird rights at the end of the year?
Yes. If you are going to lose him either way, might as well see what you are losing. :lol Perhaps he plays at a medium level that doesn't make him wanted on the open market but makes him valuable enough to keep around and develop further.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Obstructed_View
I ask again: Why wouldn't you want a guy who can contribute to contribute? You've already suggested that the Spurs think he can't play. If they don't think he can play, then they aren't worried about his impending free agency. That said, there currently exists some evidence he CAN play, and it's a guarantee that he's gone to someone else for more money than the Spurs can afford even if he never plays another minute in a Spurs uni. So once again, why not play him?
I'm not sure Spurs see his game against Nets as an evidence he can play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
Because they weren't going to keep him anyway. Just go ahead and use him like a Glenn Robinson. He wasn't going to be kept, he was just a specialist to be used for one season's playoff run. Splitter's coming anyway, according to most fans. And if Splitter doesn't, that frees the MLE for Ian.
Well, Ian isn't a 10 years old NBA vet. He is a young player with very few experience of the high level. I don't really see how he could have been used like Glenn Robinson.
If Spurs wanted that Ian was able to help them for this year playoffs, it would have required to give him consistent minutes through 82 games. And it was with no guaranteed results.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
I knew all that, but I don't think it totally explains away Butler. Butler was a center-prospect, at least size-wise. So was Ian. If Butler was a success then where would that have left Ian, other than warming the bench for Pau like he did most of the year anyway.
Butler and Ian were very different prospects skill wise. They were likely enough place for both.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
Spurs playing him against Nets was a little weird, but if you consider that a showcase for them, it makes a lot of sense.
Pop said he played Mahinimi because he was concerned about complacency in the regular line up (partly because Nets were on a historic losing streak) and figured that since Mahinmi never played, Mahinmi would be guaranteed to use his rare chance at playing time aggressively.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
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Originally Posted by
senorglory
Pop said he played Mahinimi because he was concerned about complacency in the regular line up (partly because Nets were on a historic losing streak) and figured that since Mahinmi never played, Mahinmi would be guaranteed to use his rare chance at playing time aggressively.
I know Pop said that but I don't buy it. If Pop wanted to have a motivated player, he would have tried Haislip. Hailsip was ahead of Ian in the depth chart and would have surely been equally motivated.
The showcase theory makes a lot of sense.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Objective has been spot on in this thread, saying what I've been saying. This is a huge fuck up and there is no other way to explain it. I get he loafed in SL and part of pre-season. What I don't get is how that matters once you see him busting ass in the regular season with production. 2 games isn't enough to judge shit, he needs consistent min for at least 15 games to see if he trends productive or not. Pop has royally fucked up many things since 2003 and all of those fuck ups are biting us in the ass now. Just add Ian to the growing list.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whisky Dog
Objective has been spot on in this thread, saying what I've been saying. This is a huge fuck up and there is no other way to explain it. I get he loafed in SL and part of pre-season. What I don't get is how that matters once you see him busting ass in the regular season with production. 2 games isn't enough to judge shit, he needs consistent min for at least 15 games to see if he trends productive or not. Pop has royally fucked up many things since 2003 and all of those fuck ups are biting us in the ass now. Just add Ian to the growing list.
Huge fuck up on the part of Pop. No excuse at all not giving this guy some minutes - regardless what happens this offseason. Perhaps Pop is trying to save his sterling reputation as a basketball executive.
Again, until I see the guy get more minutes, I'm not going to trust any speculation that the guy can't play. He'll probably go somewhere else and be a serviceable big on another team's dime. Maybe then, Pop will want to "throw up in his mouth" again - like I'm doing right now.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
Well, Ian isn't a 10 years old NBA vet. He is a young player with very few experience of the high level. I don't really see how he could have been used like Glenn Robinson.
If Spurs wanted that Ian was able to help them for this year playoffs, it would have required to give him consistent minutes through 82 games. And it was with no guaranteed results.
re: Robinson compared to Mahinmi, I meant using him as a rental.
Use him and abuse him like a cheap fling. He's not 'relationship material', so just get your kicks out of him.
Because if the masses are right and Splitter comes next year, there's no room for Ian even if he got time and played well. Duncan getting his, Blair getting his in his second year, Splitter as a legit rotation player, McDyess as the crusty old vet Pop loves to play, Bonner re-signed or some other guy as the 3-point shooting big man, plus some small foward used as a smallball PF.
So just use him like rental car. Someone else may buy him off the dealer, but get the miles out of him while you got him if the other cars are running rough.
It doesn't have to be in the playoffs, but could have been done to spare Duncan games like the Toronto headscratching fest.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
timvp
Even in his interviews around summer league time, he talks about how he's just basically going through the motions. For someone looking to break into the NBA, that's just inexcusable. If he gave complete effort in summer league and was mentally engaged, he could have been a monster. Instead, he was about as uninspiring as it gets.
I agree with most of what you say. But don't you think that as something to do with Ian missing one season for an injury, then getting injured with the French team (after a careless play)?
One year without playing is very long for a young raw player. It should not be a surprise he had a hard time to adapt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruno
The showcase theory makes a lot of sense.
If this is how they showcase a player... they really suck at it.
Re: Ian Mahinmi = Fransisco Elson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
objective
So he pretty much looked like how one would have predicted a fast, athletic big man could perform in a role on the Spurs: run the court, contest shots, finish off of passes from Manu, and so on. I don't even think his SL performances would have done anything to cause doubt that he could fill an Elson role other than the bad picks, which he's been better at in NBA games.
These are all elements the Spurs do not have enough of now. Obviously, this over-infatuation with "small-ball" isn't the working quite as well, Which is why it's absolutely idiotic for Pop to sit on Ian. Against certain opponents, and in certain situations, the Spurs could use such a lift.
