How did our Defense Fall So Far?

I don't understand how we arrived at this place... with Pop as coach and GM, with a system predicated on defense, and with the long-standing ideology that defense wins championships.

Tim's legs are glued to the floor. Our anchor is letting us drift... No help to be found...Dice and Bogans can't move their feet quick enough to stay in front of anybody. Hill still needs another season to mature on the defensive side of things. Blair, bless his heart, is just average on D. TP will be back, and he will play defense when he wants to...Bonner? ugh...

And Pop doesn't seem to expect any more of the guys. Does he really believe this squad can pull a defensive 180?

Of all the guys we are putting on the floor, the only two playing any D are Manu(it's not great but its defense), and RJ when he's contesting threes.

Is it personell? Is it age? Is it small ball? is small ball just a ploy to try and hide our weaknesses? Will someone with some answers please help a brother out?:(

Bruce is gone.
No really good perimeter stopper.
Bonner/Finley/Mason combo.

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Originally Posted by timtonymanu

Bruce is gone.
No really good perimeter stopper.
Bonner/Finley/Mason combo.

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BATTIER! :jack

I honestly believe that Pop doesn't think he can find another anchor like Duncan in his prime or a suitable replacement for Bowen, so he has gone full tilt into Nellie ball mode to try to win by outscoring opponents. He thinks he can win it all that way. I don't think we can.
Now, what we're seeing is even below average. I think that's why they're considering a trade.

spurs defense in the past has always pressured on the perimeter... always focused on limiting opponents 3 point shots.

This worked by having good quick young perimeter defenders in tony manu and bowen to gaurd that perimeter three point line very hard... by doing this the opposition was forced to put the ball on the floor which is already a + because that causes higher rate of turnover and if they were to make it to the rim they ran into "twin towers" aka duncan+drob, duncan +nazr, duncan + rasho..

its decline: parker and manu are nowhere near as quick as they once were. bowen is gone. duncan is older and blair,bonner,dyess have no inside presence whatsoever.

what the spurs defense does now is play off the perimeter players and that 3 point line and let the opposition shoot all they want because they know if they get into the paint its almost a sure 2 points against us.

thats what ive taken out of all of this..

Duncan is a positional defender, a lot of people seem to not understand this..yes, he's been a shot blocker and he still blocks around 2 a game, but his defense is based on positioning and not vertical ability..he's obviously not as quick as he once was, so you won't see him making quick rotations like he used to..he's still a reliable defender though..his man rarely beats him in 1 on 1 situations, Bynum was the only guy this season to beat Duncan in more than a few 1 on 1 possessions..

Our 2nd bigs are often exploited defensively since they have no ability to protect the paint..they're also beat in 1 on 1 situations fairly often..

Opposing teams are often taking advantage of Duncan going to help on either the guy attacking the rim or helping up top on the pick and roll and screens..the other team will always roll to the basket and take advantage of Duncan helping against the first guy that takes the shot..

Our perimeter D is also very poor, especially Jefferson, Mason, Finley and Bogans(he's not a bad 1 on 1 defender though)..they overplay all the time and can't recover to their man because they aren't athletic enough, often putting our interior defenders in vulnerable situations..this is supposed to be the strategy, but they have no idea how to properly funnel their man into Duncan..

Hill and Manu are the only perimeter defenders that knows how to play D with Duncan IMO..they often help when their man throws his body into Duncan, and Hill funnels his man into Duncan very well when he's playing at SG IMO..I don't like Hill's D against PGs, but he plays well vs. SGs defensively IMO..

It also hurts that we play extended small ball minutes..

Lack of IQ on the perimeter + lack of athletes overall + lack of size on the interior + poor coaching rotations = average defense..

Everyone is slow and lacking in lateral movement. No Bruce heir + aging core = slow players. People blow by for layups. Small ball in theory exchanges a height advantage for positioning as guards tend to be quicker, but our guards are mostly old, lazy, or slow.

The league has been getting quite a bit more athletic too, but we have the same defensive issues against old slow teams meaning that we just lack defensive fundamentals. Small ball is just a scapegoat when there are actually holes everywhere. Turnovers, being out of position, lackluster rebounding nights, and more are all things that hurt the defense or increase the pressure on it.

We are really feeling the lack of a perimeter player with long arms and great footwork. That with a prime Duncan made us unstoppable in the past. Pretty much have to adjust or trade. I think we can do either or.

Lack of size and athleticism on the perimeter and interior.

Personnel problems.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Duncan is a positional defender, a lot of people seem to not understand this..yes, he's been a shot blocker and he still blocks around 2 a game, but his defense is based on positioning and not vertical ability..he's obviously not as quick as he once was, so you won't see him making quick rotations like he used to..he's still a reliable defender though..his man rarely beats him in 1 on 1 situations, Bynum was the only guy this season to beat Duncan in more than a few 1 on 1 possessions..

Our 2nd bigs are often exploited defensively since they have no ability to protect the paint..they're also beat in 1 on 1 situations fairly often..

Opposing teams are often taking advantage of Duncan going to help on either the guy attacking the rim or helping up top on the pick and roll and screens..the other team will always roll to the basket and take advantage of Duncan helping against the first guy that takes the shot..

Our perimeter D is also very poor, especially Jefferson, Mason, Finley and Bogans(he's not a bad 1 on 1 defender though)..they overplay all the time and can't recover to their man, often putting our interior defenders in vulnerable situations..this is supposed to be the strategy, but they have no idea how to properly funnel their man into Duncan..

Hill and Manu are the only perimeter defenders that knows how to play D with Duncan IMO..they often help when their man throws his body into Duncan, and Hill funnels his man into Duncan very well when he's playing at SG IMO..

It also hurts that we play extended small ball minutes..

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Ive seen this so many times its disturbing, Im sure teams have always tried this strategy in the past but our other 7 footer playing next to duncan would be enough to step over and stop this. with all these small players next to duncan they have made this play unstoppable.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

I don't understand how we arrived at this place... with Pop as coach and GM, with a system predicated on defense, and with the long-standing ideology that defense wins championships.

Tim's legs are glued to the floor. Our anchor is letting us drift... No help to be found...Dice and Bogans can't move their feet quick enough to stay in front of anybody. Hill still needs another season to mature on the defensive side of things. Blair, bless his heart, is just average on D. TP will be back, and he will play defense when he wants to...Bonner? ugh...

And Pop doesn't seem to expect any more of the guys. Does he really believe this squad can pull a defensive 180?

Of all the guys we are putting on the floor, the only two playing any D are Manu(it's not great but its defense), and RJ when he's contesting threes.

Is it personell? Is it age? Is it small ball? is small ball just a ploy to try and hide our weaknesses? Will someone with some answers please help a brother out?:(

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7 new players on the roster is the main factor. The Spurs have a complicated defensive system and even NBA veterans don't get the hang of it right away. Parker is injured and having his worst year since he was a rookie. Manu was injured but looks to be playing himself back into shape nicely.

Pop only played small ball because he had to. McDyess looked like garbage the first half of the season. Bonner got injured. Blair is a rookie and has just as many bad games as great games. Mahinmi sucks and will never see the floor. Ratliff is available for spot minutes only.

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Originally Posted by DesignatedT

what the spurs defense does now is play off the perimeter players and that 3 point line and let the opposition shoot all they want because they know if they get into the paint its almost a sure 2 points against us.

thats what ive taken out of all of this..

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This is very evident by looking at opp points in the paint avg. The opposition this year and last have shot a ton of jump shots compared to inside scoring. No doubt that the decline and loss of Bruce is a major component of this. Plus the rest of the wings are aging or playing lazy D.

We really need Hill to be a couple years older right now. Our perimeter D is ugly.

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Originally Posted by DesignatedT

Ive seen this so many times its disturbing, Im sure teams have always tried this strategy in the past but our other 7 footer playing next to duncan would be enough to step over and stop this. with all these small players next to duncan they have made this play unstoppable.

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Yup..

They use it in different ways too..

We were up 20 vs. the Clippers earlier in the year, and they made their entire comeback by using the pick and roll and making Duncan switch off Kaman..almost all of their players during their comeback came off Kaman taking advantage of the non-Duncan defender off the switch, and Pop never adjusted to it..

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

I don't understand how we arrived at this place... with Pop as coach and GM, with a system predicated on defense, and with the long-standing ideology that defense wins championships.

Tim's legs are glued to the floor. Our anchor is letting us drift... No help to be found...Dice and Bogans can't move their feet quick enough to stay in front of anybody. Hill still needs another season to mature on the defensive side of things. Blair, bless his heart, is just average on D. TP will be back, and he will play defense when he wants to...Bonner? ugh...

And Pop doesn't seem to expect any more of the guys. Does he really believe this squad can pull a defensive 180?

Of all the guys we are putting on the floor, the only two playing any D are Manu(it's not great but its defense), and RJ when he's contesting threes.

Is it personell? Is it age? Is it small ball? is small ball just a ploy to try and hide our weaknesses? Will someone with some answers please help a brother out?:(

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The defense is too far gone to make a serious run at a title. It doesn't matter who the Spurs target by the deadline, its not going to make a difference.

The Spurs defensive woes have mostly to do with age, wear and tear on the body inconsistency, and missed defensive assignments. However, its not small ball. Small ball is an excuse drummed up by spurs fans as a coping mechanism. You see, their are 300 coaches in this forum that think with their feet instead of their brain.

So do we need an agile 7 footer who can guard the athletic power forward, and who isn't Ian, or a perimeter stopper, or both?

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

So do we need an agile 7 footer who can guard the athletic power forward, and who isn't Ian, or a perimeter stopper, or both?

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I personally think that there's not much out there to really solve our "length and athleticism issue" in the front court. There's some that have length and that are athletic like Tyrus Thomas for instance, but they would not see significant minutes on this Spurs team. They just wouldn't. Therefore a move like that wouldn't really catapult us anywhere.

Spurs should make a move for an quick/ athletic/ wing good enough on both ends to play the starting 2 spot 30 minutes a game( instead of the Mason/Bogans/ Finley combo). I think such an additions would improve the Spurs immensely. ( Without giving up Manu and if they don't have to R.J).

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

So do we need an agile 7 footer who can guard the athletic power forward, and who isn't Ian, or a perimeter stopper, or both?

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A perimeter stopper would be a bonus. We need another 7 footer alongside Duncan that can prevent smaller guards and forwards from penetrating the paint and scoring with ease. But seldom used Ian and and third string center Theo are not the answers.

In the last three games, the Spurs have been killed by penetration. Even though Parker has been a lazy defender for much of the season, he's the best the Spurs have at cutting off penetration. You rarely see point guards go coast to coast against him ... and we've seen that a ton the last three games. Combine that with a lack of shotblocking and that's a big reason why the defense has been especially bad the last three games.

The recent struggles also have to do with Bogans regressing on the defensive end and thus playing less minutes. Earlier in the season, his energy on the defensive end was masking mistakes. Now Bogans isn't playing very good defense and others are struggling to fill the stopper role.

For the Spurs to become a top five defensive team, they need McDyess to really step up and play consistent defense (which he hasn't this season). And they need someone to be a perimeter stopper (the best chance is Hill once he moves back to primarily playing against wing players). It's a long shot but I haven't given up on this squad as constructed becoming a top five defensive team.

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Originally Posted by timvp

In the last three games, the Spurs have been killed by penetration. Even though Parker has been a lazy defender for much of the season, he's the best the Spurs have at cutting off penetration. You rarely see point guards go coast to coast against him ... and we've seen that a ton the last three games. Combine that with a lack of shot-blocking and that's a big reason why the defense has been especially bad the last three games.

The recent struggles also have to do with Bogans regressing on the defensive end and thus playing less minutes. Earlier in the season, his energy on the defensive end was masking mistakes. Now Bogans isn't playing very good defense and others are struggling to fill the stopper role.

For the Spurs to become a top five defensive team, they need McDyess to really step up and play consistent defense (which he hasn't this season). And they need someone to be a perimeter stopper (the best chance is Hill once he moves back to primarily playing against wing players). It's a long shot but I haven't given up on this squad as constructed becoming a top five defensive team.

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I really think shot-blocking is over-rated to an extent. I would much rather have perimeter players that have the foot speed to stay in front of their man and negate penetration from the perimeter.

Look at the 2007 Finals and how stout our defense was that series. We had had a guy who couldn't jump over a sheet of paper starting at center, but we had a player with superior foot speed and lateral quickness to stay in front of LeBron. This would negate the easy opportunities he'd create for himself and others ( since he wasn't able to get in the paint easily).

I really believe bringing in such a wing at the starting 2 spot that can play 30 minutes a night ( instead of Bogans/Mason/ Finley combo) would improve our team more than people think.

When you have to hit 8-10 free throws and make a three to win when you have a ten point lead with 3 minutes to go, you know your defense isn't working.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

I really think shot-blocking is over-rated to an extent. I would much rather have perimeter players that have the foot speed to stay in front of their man and negate penetration from the perimeter.

Look at the 2007 Finals and how stout our defense was that series. We had had a guy who couldn't jump over a sheet of paper starting at center, but we had a player with superior foot speed and lateral quickness to stay in front of LeBron. This would negate the easy opportunities he'd create for himself and others ( since he wasn't able to get in the paint easily).

I really believe bringing in such a wing at the starting 2 spot that can play 30 minutes a night ( instead of Bogans/Mason/ Finley combo) would improve our team more than people think.

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I agree. While ideally the spurs could use both a defensive wing and big, I believe the wing would help us most this season. (I'd go on, but you explained so well.)

My pipedream for that spot is Igoudala. J. Posey is another guy that would be good to have starting at the 2, or backing up RJ.

AGE!

Gettin old sux.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

I really think shot-blocking is over-rated to an extent. I would much rather have perimeter players that have the foot speed to stay in front of their man and negate penetration from the perimeter..

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You may think the shot-blocking is overrated to an extent, but when a team can't defend on the perimeter either, shut down the lane or block shots, then you have a very, very poor defensive team. For the record, I'd rather have both because it increases your chances of being an elite defensive team. Something the Spurs had the luxury of being back in the Twin Towers era.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

Look at the 2007 Finals and how stout our defense was that series. We had had a guy who couldn't jump over a sheet of paper starting at center, but we had a player with superior foot speed and lateral quickness to stay in front of LeBron. This would negate the easy opportunities he'd create for himself and others ( since he wasn't able to get in the paint easily).

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Agree to a point. What you have to remember is that despite Bowen's superb ability to stay in front of LeBron, he was no match for James' power and strength. While Bowen did phenomenal job, it wasn't all him. Remember the Spurs basically employed a team defensive strategy of smothering James, in an effort to slow him down, shut him out of the paint, and get the ball out of his hands. I'm sure Bowen would be the first to admit that.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

I really believe bringing in such a wing at the starting 2 spot that can play 30 minutes a night ( instead of Bogans/Mason/ Finley combo) would improve our team more than people think.

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I've been saying that for about 3 years. Enough of these smallish wing players, who are virtually one-trick ponies, in that they are perimeter shooters, but nothing else. Can't create their own shot, can't get to the rim, can't rebound, can't pass and can't defend. Pop has really outdid himself in stockpiling a corp of one-dimensional shooters - regardless of position. Obviously, they are valuable but you need other skills on the roster too.

Defense in the Fourth is Bad..... Problem is Pop is just being to kind to his players...

He need to be the Old Pop....Bring the Defense back .... That gives us the 4 championship. Not Offense....

Weak teams are not scared of us anymore....We need Bruce Back....to remind them to play defense.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Duncan is a positional defender, a lot of people seem to not understand this..yes, he's been a shot blocker and he still blocks around 2 a game, but his defense is based on positioning and not vertical ability..he's obviously not as quick as he once was, so you won't see him making quick rotations like he used to..he's still a reliable defender though..his man rarely beats him in 1 on 1 situations, Bynum was the only guy this season to beat Duncan in more than a few 1 on 1 possessions..

Our 2nd bigs are often exploited defensively since they have no ability to protect the paint..they're also beat in 1 on 1 situations fairly often..

Opposing teams are often taking advantage of Duncan going to help on either the guy attacking the rim or helping up top on the pick and roll and screens..the other team will always roll to the basket and take advantage of Duncan helping against the first guy that takes the shot..

Our perimeter D is also very poor, especially Jefferson, Mason, Finley and Bogans(he's not a bad 1 on 1 defender though)..they overplay all the time and can't recover to their man because they aren't athletic enough, often putting our interior defenders in vulnerable situations..this is supposed to be the strategy, but they have no idea how to properly funnel their man into Duncan..

Hill and Manu are the only perimeter defenders that knows how to play D with Duncan IMO..they often help when their man throws his body into Duncan, and Hill funnels his man into Duncan very well when he's playing at SG IMO..I don't like Hill's D against PGs, but he plays well vs. SGs defensively IMO..

It also hurts that we play extended small ball minutes..

Lack of IQ on the perimeter + lack of athletes overall + lack of size on the interior + poor coaching rotations = average defense..

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Agree 100%. I've been saying this almost half the season. The expectation I believe was that RJ was going to be a better defender than what he's been doing. And that McDyess was going to be able to provide the weak side help on the interior.

Neither have come to fruition up to this point. And I don't have much confidence in either to improve if they haven't gotten it by now.

But...Hopefully...To their defense...it's taken other quality players during their first year on this team time to become what was expected of them. Hopefully they will improve before the season is over just enough to help the Spurs make it to the playoffs.

Just making the playoffs seems to be the most important goal now much less thinking how far they would go if they make it.