M. Ginobili and R. Jefferson is the key to a championship, not a trade

With the trade deadline 2 weeks away, there's been plenty of rumors going around; and even though the Spurs deny being close to a deal; i think its more likely that we'd make a trade rather than not. The trade is probably going to be for a role player rather than a star. No role player is going to drastically change the complexion of this team; just like Doug Collins said yesterday, the key to Spurs championship has to be in the improved play of 2 players "M. Ginobili and R. Jefferson".

M. Ginobili: He really just needs to find more consistency in his game; he plays with all out heart; but i don't know if age is catching up with him, since any keen observer could see that he has slowed down a bit, thats probably the reason that he's taking more jumpers than ever. I hope its just a consistency issue since if its a age issue, nothing can be done about it.

R. Jefferson: Its really frustrating how much he's struggling to fit in to this team. He's not a bad player at all, people on the board are saying that he could only score in fast breaks and not in half court sets "COMPLETE BS"; i watched this guy played the last few years during his days on the Nets and Bucks, and he's nothing similar than the player he is here now. He doesn't need a great PG to play alongside him... he just needs to get his touches on offense, and what i mean by touches is not T. Parker dribbling 20 sec of the shot clock away than pass it to him with 2 sec left to take the jumper. He is not a spot up shooter, and if you are going to play him in the role of a spot up shooter, he is going to struggle like the way he is now... this is the most frustrating thing... Pop talked about wanting to get an athletic SF for 3 years but he finally got one in R. Jefferson who was a borderline all-star "17 - 20 ppg player" but what does he do?!?! he turns him into a spot up shooter which is not his strong point. If all you want your SF to do is plant him in the corner to take only the open shot, than don't trade for R. Jefferson; might as well go for a J. Hayes, B. Simmons type player. There was another player who played SF in the past that struggled mightily while he was on the Spurs. H. Turkuglo played the same role as R. Jefferson did while he was here... being planted in the corner and let T. Parker dribbled the ball around for 20 sec until the lane is closed than pass it out for the open shot. I remember people on the forum saying the exact same thing about H. Turkuglo that they are saying about R. Jefferson now "PUSSY, NO GUTS, PASSIVE" and look at him after he left the Spurs for Magics, he turned into a very good player who almost made the all-star team; and he developed a rep of being pretty clutch while he was with the Magics. I'm sorry but i really can't blame everything on R. Jefferson for his struggle, T. Parker and Coach Pop is almost as big of a blame. I don't think it matters if we get C. Butler or A. Iguodola to replace R. Jefferson, if we don't change the way we utilize the player they are going to struggle.

Great post. The spurs need to take this advice.

I agree with you about RJ. He isn't as bad as everyone here makes him out to be.

Actually, before TP turned his ankle, it looked like he and RJ were starting to mesh a little better. TP had a couple of nice passes to him for dunks against the Bulls and Hawks. I think Tony is getting better at setting up RJ but sometimes he gets tunnel vision about scoring. He needs to pick his spots more strategically. He has to realize that he causes opposing defenses to collapse more than anyone on the team. He has open teammates all over the floor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bless1187

With the trade deadline 2 weeks away, there's been plenty of rumors going around; and even though the Spurs deny being close to a deal; i think its more likely that we'd make a trade rather than not. The trade is probably going to be for a role player rather than a star. No role player is going to drastically change the complexion of this team; just like Doug Collins said yesterday, the key to Spurs championship has to be in the improved play of 2 players "M. Ginobili and R. Jefferson".

M. Ginobili: He really just needs to find more consistency in his game; he plays with all out heart; but i don't know if age is catching up with him, since any keen observer could see that he has slowed down a bit, thats probably the reason that he's taking more jumpers than ever. I hope its just a consistency issue since if its a age issue, nothing can be done about it.

R. Jefferson: Its really frustrating how much he's struggling to fit in to this team. He's not a bad player at all, people on the board are saying that he could only score in fast breaks and not in half court sets "COMPLETE BS"; i watched this guy played the last few years during his days on the Nets and Bucks, and he's nothing similar than the player he is here now. He doesn't need a great PG to play alongside him... he just needs to get his touches on offense, and what i mean by touches is not T. Parker dribbling 20 sec of the shot clock away than pass it to him with 2 sec left to take the jumper. He is not a spot up shooter, and if you are going to play him in the role of a spot up shooter, he is going to struggle like the way he is now... this is the most frustrating thing... Pop talked about wanting to get an athletic SF for 3 years but he finally got one in R. Jefferson who was a borderline all-star "17 - 20 ppg player" but what does he do?!?! he turns him into a spot up shooter which is not his strong point. If all you want your SF to do is plant him in the corner to take only the open shot, than don't trade for R. Jefferson; might as well go for a J. Hayes, B. Simmons type player. There was another player who played SF in the past that struggled mightily while he was on the Spurs. H. Turkuglo played the same role as R. Jefferson did while he was here... being planted in the corner and let T. Parker dribbled the ball around for 20 sec until the lane is closed than pass it out for the open shot. I remember people on the forum saying the exact same thing about H. Turkuglo that they are saying about R. Jefferson now "PUSSY, NO GUTS, PASSIVE" and look at him after he left the Spurs for Magics, he turned into a very good player who almost made the all-star team; and he developed a rep of being pretty clutch while he was with the Magics. I'm sorry but i really can't blame everything on R. Jefferson for his struggle, T. Parker and Coach Pop is almost as big of a blame. I don't think it matters if we get C. Butler or A. Iguodola to replace R. Jefferson, if we don't change the way we utilize the player they are going to struggle.

---

Respectable post,

Jefferson is actually having a good year in terms of percentages offensively. He's just not making the most out of his opportunities that are present for him. He does get enough touches for him to make a significant impact, he just needs to become more decisive and aggressive with those touches on the offensive side of the ball. I'm not talking about aggressive as in attempt his comfortable jab-step jumpers from 17-21 feet out, which he does 80 percent of the time when he decides to be aggressive with those " touches". I'm talking about being more aggressive in attacking the hoop and getting to the line, creating for others. Like he did in back to back games against Toronto and Dallas in November.

To me Jefferson needs to improve his play more so on the defensive end. His lack of focus and lethargic play time to time on that end is what is most disappointing from Spurs fans.

can we all agree now, that Pop has no idea how to use the players he has? that his coaching ability was last seen circa 2007? or will the Popologists STILL continue to deny and verbally smite anyone who mentions this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by poop

can we all agree now, that Pop has no idea how to use the players he has? that his coaching ability was last seen circa 2007? or will the Popologists STILL continue to deny and verbally smite anyone who mentions this

---

You calling EricB (TPark) out?

yeah....I don't know why people keep dissing rj. like he is the reason the spurs are losing.....spurs are not gelling well together

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spurtech09

yeah....I don't know why people keep dissing rj. like he is the reason the spurs are losing.....spurs are not gelling well together

---

jeffrson is a solid player. He is not the type of player that will win games by himself but is a great complimentary player on the offensive side. He is not a top defensive player- never was.

The main problem is the lack of interior defense and the health of Parker.
A trade for a defensive big and getting Parker healthy will put the spurs back on track.

Don't count on Manu to regain form from a few years ago, its just not going to happen. Injuries the last couple of years and lots of wear and tear from playing year round has caught up with him. He is on the wrong side of 30 now.

The Spurs need RJ-Manu to step up AND they need a good trade..those 2 things are absolutely crucial if we have any aspirations to even compete for a title..

I have confidence in Manu, but I don't have confidence in RJ and I don't have too much confidence in the FO making a good trade right now..

We also desperately need a perimeter defender and another big..obviously athleticism is needed too, but Pop doesn't co-operate with that anyways..obviously we can't fill ALL these needs though..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rascal

Great post. The spurs need to take this advice.

---

Every game I watch they go to the other side of the court with the ball from Jefferson.

Im not saying if we NEED a trade now or NOT. Im just wondering even if there is going to be a trade, how much that will actually help us right now this season. I think it will not have such an impact, it wont change anything major in the short term.

I agree with the OP, everyone has to step up and especially RJ, we know they can. I hope he will do that. They need to improve, so we can have a good ending for this season after all. Then in the summer its time to look for trades. Now, I dont think it will do anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

The Spurs need RJ-Manu to step up AND they need a good trade..those 2 things are absolutely crucial if we have any aspirations to even compete for a title..

I have confidence in Manu, but I don't have confidence in RJ and I don't have too much confidence in the FO making a good trade right now..

We also desperately need a perimeter defender and another big..obviously athleticism is needed too, but Pop doesn't co-operate with that anyways..obviously we can't fill ALL these needs though..

---

I don't have any confidence in Manu improving. What you see now is what you will get, an occasional great game followed by poor shooting games, untimely turnovers, tremendous determination and heart but on the decline.

RJ will not improve if Pop doesn't make some changes to his coaching.

Parker needs to get healthy and he will be fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bukefal

Im not saying if we NEED a trade now or NOT. Im just wondering even if there is going to be a trade, how much that will actually help us right now this season. I think it will not have such an impact, it wont change anything major in the short term.

I agree with the OP, everyone has to step up and especially RJ. I hope he can do that. They need to improve, so we can have a good ending for this season after all. Then in the summer its time to look for trades. Now, I dont think it will do anything.

---

Its not only about this year its also about the future. A trade now may not be enough to turn things around for this year but it would get the spurs back on track and that will play a big role for next year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rascal

Its not only about this year its also about the future. A trade now may not be enough to turn things around for this year but it would get the spurs back on track and that will play a big role for next year.

---

Yeah that's true, but there is a danger of rushing. We should not rush into making a trade now. If a trade is being made now, I think its more because of this season for the short term instead of looking to the long run. I think because it will not change anything major in the short term in this season, what's left of it, we should wait until the summer instead, so some good trades can be worked out, the summer is the right time to do that and to focus on the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bukefal

Yeah that's true, but there is a danger of rushing. We should not rush into making a trade now. If a trade is being made now, I think its more because of this season for the short term instead of looking to the long run. I think because it will not change anything major in the short term in this season, what's left of it, we should wait until the summer instead, so some good trades can be worked out, the summer is the right time to do that and to focus on the future.

---

Its better to pull the trigger on a impact trade now, get the team back on track to having a legitimate shot even if they fall short this year, it goes a long way to making them better for next year.

It may be the role hes given, and I agree with the op for the most part, But there is no excuses for the defense or lack of rebounding, given his size and athleticism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rascal

I don't have any confidence in Manu improving. What you see now is what you will get, an occasional great game followed by poor shooting games, untimely turnovers, tremendous determination and heart but on the decline.

---

He's probably the second or third best player on our team right now. He also has been improving lately. If he can keep on stringing together 20 point games, I don't think you need much more than that from him.

What other 20 ppg player are you going to bring that's also a playmaker? Because outside of Tony, we don't really have any other serious PG.

I have 110% confidence in MANU that he will be back to 2008 form.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 5in10

I have 110% confidence in MANU that he will be back to 2008 form.

---

I don't think he will, honestly. I think he already improved from the start of the season, and he can definitely improve his shot, which has little to do with his physical condition. But that should be enough to have a big enough impact in games. We definitely need to get more from RJ offensively, and the team as a whole on defense. Tony also needs to get healthy, and Pop needs to stop fucking around with the lineup experiments he's throwing out there.
I still have hope that this team can put it together. I think the talent is there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't think he will, honestly. I think he already improved from the start of the season, and he can definitely improve his shot, which has little to do with his physical condition. But that should be enough to have a big enough impact in games. We definitely need to get more from RJ offensively, and the team as a whole on defense. Tony also needs to get healthy, and Pop needs to stop fucking around with the lineup experiments he's throwing out there.
I still have hope that this team can put it together. I think the talent is there.

---

Talent is there NO DOUBT! Chemistry though? Thats the key. How can you have a team with Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Hill, RJ and Blair and be this bad? I mean look at that talent there alone! It's just mind boggling, great on paper but doesn't mesh quite yet.

Talent wise both are really the pieces to the Spurs 5th championship. But you are right Bless 1187 .

Coach Pop is not utilizing R. Jefferson to his pull potential. RJ needs to post more and attack the basket more. He is now designated as a spot up shooter which is not how R.J. plays.

The sad thing about this is coach Pop know this but still is not doing anything about it.

I also notice that the ball movement of the team is not the fluid enough unlike the previous team we have. And I think our offense is very predictable. If we can't score points inside the paint. Guess what 3 point shooters line up and jump shots galore....

We need a trade but lets not trade Manu and R.J. they are a good part of this team.

RJ is at his ceiling with this team offensively. Him and the system are not compatible. The fourth option isn't going to get the touches, plays, or space to operate. He can't create anything on his own. The problem is that we replaced Fin just fine with RJ, yet Bruce left a gaping hole. If RJ was at least somewhat consistent at perimeter D then it would be fine. Bogans is unfortunately showing more of Udoka than Bowen. Hill and Manu are our best bets at perimeter D, but one operates mostly off disrupting plays instead of fundamental D and the other needs more time.

The other oft-repeated problem is our big man D. I'm hoping that Dice comes into form and that Ratliff gets minutes later. I think I'd rather trade for perimeter D/3 pt shooting than for a big, especially since the former would pretty much be guaranteed play time under Pop.

Excellent post, all too true. Manu is definitly starting to round into form I noticed, now it's time for RJ to follow suit and stop being such a softie in the levels of gasol

I think both Pop and RJ have had horrible seasons, and Pop is not playing RJ in a way to make the most of his skills, whilst RJ is not playing well enough to justify his involvement.

Chicken or the egg?

Manu has been looking better. I am never going to be surprised to see him have a good night....it's just not all there yet on a consistent basis. RJ is a puzzle, as I'm not sure what his potential really is. However, it is encouraging to hear from those of you that think he might come around. I hope he can start to play without being so tentative. I'm sure he has a healthy amount of pressure on himself to play better.
Last night was disappointing in many ways....time to bounce back in L.A.:flag:

I think the ball movement problem is caused by Pop letting Tony have the playcalling duty. He doesn't call plays that get everryoine into the mix. Essentially he calls his own play every time, dribbling the ball and trying to set up a pick and roll for himself.

Take that away from TP and let Pop call the plays and you'll see better ball movement and maybe Jefferson will get his number called occasionally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wildbill2u

Take that away from TP and let Pop call the plays and you'll see better ball movement and maybe Jefferson will get his number called occasionally.

---

I'm all in favor of this. Pop will have a better perspective and strategic view of the play calling than Tony. The current way is clearly not working.

Good post, I totally agree. But you forgot that Parker's health is also very important. And to be honest, RJ didn't perform well even if Parker's hurt.

this team is rediculous, they cant win games if they keep turning the ball over and playing bad D especially rj everyone seems to blow by him

As it looks now Manu seems to be getting his legs back. So it's definitely not worth trading Manu at this point. What I want to see in the offseason is no resigning of Mason, Finley, or Bonner so we can resign Mr.Ginobili( as well as bring Malik up and get Splitter in a Spurs uniform).

I have only been dissapointed with RJ's agressiveness. I don't expect him to have big numbers because our team is pretty deep this year with offensive talent. But I wish he would impose himself on offense when he sees the rest of the guys struggling. That and use that athleticism to pull down more rebounds(which he has kind of been doing) and contest more shots on the defensive end. If we could get those things from the guy we would be in much better shape.

Agree with OP. The Spurs have a better chance of getting everyone healthy than making the perfect trade for a player who would have to learn the system and integrate by the playoffs.

IMO the Spurs should be trying to develop either Ratliff or Mahinmi as a 8-12 mpg shot blocking presence when needed. Ratliff still had game last year but they haven't played him enough to see what he could do.

It'll just depend on what the Spurs want to do. Unfortunately I don't think they'll go all the way this season so do the Spurs want to go ahead and trade Manu now so that they would at least get some talent back or will they risk keeping him for the rest of the season and possibility of him going to another team next season and not getting anything for him? It's a hard choice.

A lot of good points here, it seems to be that RJ is not being played to his max. potential, which reflects on Pop and RJ for not asserting himself more. So if manages to get more touches, who loses touches? Tony, I doubt it, probably TD which is not a good thing on most nights. I think it just comes down to sharing the ball and running plays for RJ. Spurs are playing soft, I notice with all these "should of won" games that the opposing team cranks up the intensity and the Spurs fail to match it. In the last few minutes of the game, the Spurs turnover the ball, allow too many points, and take bad shots.. they are choking. Spurs got talent, they just lack killer instinct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by barbacoataco

Agree with OP. The Spurs have a better chance of getting everyone healthy than making the perfect trade for a player who would have to learn the system and integrate by the playoffs.

IMO the Spurs should be trying to develop either Ratliff or Mahinmi as a 8-12 mpg shot blocking presence when needed. Ratliff still had game last year but they haven't played him enough to see what he could do.

---

That's another mystery, I know the guy is old and they want to save him for playoffs, but come on.. at this rate he won't see any minutes in the playoffs, and that's a dam shame. Normally, I try to think that Pop knows what's he's doing, but there are too many things the Spurs could be doing and just simply should be playing better. I don't think Pop is adjusting to the roster, he's stuck in his old ways. Very frustrating to see the Spurs like this.