Brutally Honest Truths

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Originally Posted by DesignatedT

why i agree to some extent with all your points i still believe that a deal by the deadline can rejuvinate this team. the whole locker room mentality needs to change and a trade bringing in new blood and players that are looking to play hard, physical and want to win could do that,

im not giving up just yet.

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Good luck!

homless version of bowen is being to nice

So what you're saying is...we're are a season away from being the Detroit Pistons? FUCK!!!!

My first post on this forum was so hopeful, even if it was after we lost in the playoffs. I saw Timmy never giving up, even at the end and it stuck with me. There must be a way, some way to at least get us in a position where we aren't a total mess...let Timmy throw his punches, let Manu leave with dignity rather than just quietly in the off season! LET IT ALL BE FOR SOMETHING! There are 10 days left to make a change, right? If we're losing the house, let's throw a fuckin party and wake the neighbors. :toast

:flag::flag::flag:

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Originally Posted by timvp

If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.

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I'm feeling that this is pretty much a 99% possibility at this point. There's a point where you have to cut your losses. A championship is a pipe dream at this point. Holt needs the team to make the playoffs this year and next, nothing more. To that end, the chances of trading for any contract past next year is a very long shot, and hence the chances of getting any real talent to compete is pretty much not going to happen.

At least that's my view.

Spursfan needs to start to root for the playoffs instead of going all-in for a championship. I hope we make the playoffs these next couple years, because we won't see them for a long time after that. All these threads to tank and such are retarded. We're going to have YEARS of tanking after TD is gone.

Enjoy what you have while you can.

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Originally Posted by timvp

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.

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This might be the most overlooked contributing factor to the Spurs being a slightly above average team. Parker has gone from a superstar last season to a good player this season. It's damning for any team to lose a top 10 player in the league.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Before the Lakers game, I had the Spurs at about a 1-in-200 longshot at winning the NBA championship. After the Lakers forcibly took advantage of the Spurs without Kobe and Bynum, I'm going to lower those chances to zero. For the first time in the Tim Duncan Era, I'm watching a healthy team with absolutely no chance of winning a championship. I still think they will make the playoffs but the chances of a fifth title isn't slim ... it's none.

-You can't fault Tim Duncan's effort. But the reality is that he's no longer in a tier by himself. He used to easily be the best bigman in the game. Now he's in the same tier as players like Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki. It is painful to admit it ... but it's sadly the truth. Wear and tear has allowed the pack to catch up to him.

-Manu Ginobili's normal gait has never returned since his surgery following the Olympics. His run is more like a fast waddle. He's lost at least one step, is a streak shooter, struggles to defend in one-on-one situations and just isn't as dangerous as he was prior to March of 2008. He's gone from a damn good NBA player to a damn good bench player.

-Tony Parker ruined himself by overworking with the French national team. Not only is he beat up physically, he doesn't have it mentally. Evidence of that is seen when he explodes for one half and then disappears for another half -- as he's done way too often this season. He used to have great focus and would stay in attack mode for weeks at a time. Now we're lucky if we see him in attack mode for an entire quarter. He plays like he's physically, mentally and emotionally drained.

-It's not gonna happen. Richard Jefferson won't fit on this team. It's not so much his skillset is incompatible, it's more to do with his fragile psyche. You really don't know how a player will fit on a championship level team until he's thrown into the fire. He's been thrown into the fire -- and has melted. He's an inconsistent offensive threat who does absolutely nothing positive when his shot isn't going in. And as the pressure mounts on him to perform, he's just going to become more and more inconsistent. I can't imagine a happy ending with Jefferson in San Antonio.

-When the Spurs signed Antonio McDyess, they hoped old age wouldn't catch up to him right away. Unfortunately, it did. He's already a shell of what he was last season. He's getting better but he just isn't the defensive presence he used to be. He's no longer a championship quality player as a starter.

-God bless DeJuan Blair but when size is your weakness and the team you have to go through has length as their main strength ... that's a bad combination.

-George Hill has come up big lately but the bottom line is he's a 6-foot-2 tweener who loses his confidence at the drop of a hat. When he loses his confidence, he turns into an indecisive dribbling machine. There's hope he can remedy that flaw before the end of the season but that type of growth is measured in years, not games. And while he's solid in most other aspects, he's not good enough in any one category to overcome passive play.

-Matt Bonner isn't going to regain his pre-injury level of play this season. He's a rhythm and confidence player who is playing with neither rhythm nor confidence. He might as well go start running the hills in New Hampshire now to get ready for next season.

-He had his moments but Roger Mason, Jr.'s run as a Spur is over. Pop doesn't like him anymore. He can't play well without quality minutes. The question is just whether or not the Spurs trade him now or let him walk after the season.

-Michael Finley's NBA career should have been over at least two seasons ago. I'll give him credit ... the guy tries hard and is at times the team's most physical player, but he's over the hill, all the way onto the other side and walking in quicksand.

-No matter how hard Pop hopes and wishes, Keith Bogans will never be more than a homeless version of an old Bruce Bowen.

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.

-I feel for you, Peter Holt. You gave the Spurs and Spurs fans what they wanted when you opened your wallet to spend millions in an effort to get one last championship during the Tim Duncan Era. Your gesture should have be rewarded. It hasn't. If you order the abandonment of this ship and a return to payroll normalcy, it'd be a sad day ... but I'd understand.

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my rant was way funnier.

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Originally Posted by DAF86

You were too kind to Pop. I still think this team can be the second best team in the west with a coach that possesses a common sense.

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This.

Otherwise I agree pretty much with everything. Maybe you have more faith in Bonner than I do, but the rest looks about right...

We're just simply back to being an slightly above average team, like in the Pre TD era

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

I disagree about Holt..this team won him multiple titles without a high payroll, it was his obligation to do this IMO..

The front office fucked up a long time ago..it made sense to surround the big 3 with old veterans when the big 3 itself was young, but now that they got older, it only made sense to surround them with younger/more athletic players..the FO has failed to do this..

It wouldn't have won us a title, but it would have made us more competitive..

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Yep! then the Big 3 were the youth. Now the big 3 are the old vets.

The TNT announcers did have one good point: the lack of a vocal player like a Mario or AJ to step up and whip some asses into shape is just killing the Spurs.

And I'm still saying there's a 30% (and rising) chance they don't make the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by sabar

Enjoy what you have while you can.

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No thanks...give me the lottery balls and the chance to pair the big 3 with a lottery player than wasting time with first round sweeps...

So timvp... do we rebuild? Some say all teams go through a few bad years, as we would eventually if we keep Duncan, Manu etc. until the end; if we trade them before the end, though (Duncan only if he is willing) we might reduce the number of years the Spurs spend wandering in the wilderness.

As I said in another thread, I think they should go one more year (see if Splitter and RJ's expiring can swing one more potential run), and if it seems to be failing, see if Duncan wants to go to a contender for many, many draft picks.

Agree with every word.

Allow me to pile on by criticizing Pop for failing to develop a young nucleus of bench players. The manner in which the Spurs have handled Ian Mahinmi is especially disturbing. The game against the Fakers was yet another remider as to how poor this team is along the frontline. The Fakers badly exposed the Spurs lack of length, shotblocking and athleticism along the frontline. Meanwhile the most athletic big on the Spurs roster continues to rot away in street clothes.. I don't know what Ian has, but I do not trust or believe the guy can't play simply because Pop refuses to play him.

This isn't the only example of Pop failing to develop a young players that could've easily provided talent relief. This is just merely the latest. Failing to identify and grow a young SF would've prevented having to waste money on RJ's sorry ass. Again, I blame Pop for all of this.

Pop has been so preoccupied with the "right now" that he's ignored the future. Outside of Hill and Blair, Pop has attached himself to a roster of old players, who are literally out of gas, injured or both. Now he's reaping the consequences and we're all witnesses.

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Originally Posted by timvp

-Speaking of Pop, he has historically been a very good coach but he nowhere near Phil Jackson's level. If Phil Jackson is Michael Jordan, Pop is Craig Ehlo. Pop is great at coaching players with that innately have a huge amount of self confidence ... but when it comes to coaching players who aren't brimming with self assurance, he's just not very good. Jefferson is simply the latest example of an otherwise quality player who can't handle the pressure of Pop's coaching style and complex system. On top of that, Pop not selecting a rotation has the Spurs stuck in neutral. They can't gain any momentum because no one knows who is playing on a nightly basis. To date, this has by far been Pop's worst coaching job of his career; in fact, he's done more to hurt than help this team.

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The most brutally honest truth of them all. And I agree 95% with the rest of your truths. We thought this team had untapped potential and Pop just needed time to get the results required. There's a lot to swallow right now for spurfan.

That said, I have to disagree with dropping the faith before we're even to the all-star break or trade deadline. Miracles have happened before.

There was a game awhile back when the Spurs were killed on the boards...I thought Pop learned his lesson then...I guess not. I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by ShoogarBear

The TNT announcers did have one good point: the lack of a vocal player like a Mario or AJ to step up and whip some asses into shape is just killing the Spurs.

And I'm still saying there's a 30% (and rising) chance they don't make the playoffs.

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We have vocal guys, they just don't do it for the camera. Also Pop used to be the alpha male top dog screaming at everybody. He just lost his fire.

Right now this team better make changes and not ride out the rest of Tims career. PLEASE FO DON"T WASTE THE END OF TIMMYS CAREER! At least keep trying to reach that championship goal be it trade or watever just do what it takes to get it done.

Yeah, piling on the Mahinmi thing. It's one thing to determine that somebody can't play. It's another to determine they can't play when YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THEM.

How can you look at Mahinmi's career stats versus Matt Bonner's and determine that one deserves a few minutes every night and one should never play?

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Originally Posted by z0sa

The most brutally honest truth of them all. And I agree 95% with the rest of your truths. We thought this team had untapped potential and Pop just needed time to get the results required. There's a lot to swallow right now for spurfan.

That said, I have to disagree with dropping the faith before we're even to the all-star break or trade deadline. Miracles have happened before.

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But at least we all can agree that Spurs do need a "Miracle"

Man in Black asked me to throw this out there...Timvp..if Pop is incapable of leading this team then who is?

The David Lynch version of Paul Atreides could scream at the guys all game long, it just won't turn back the hands of time, heal nagging injuries, instill toughness in softies, or turn 6'7" swingmen into power forwards.

Props to timvp for a fantastically sobering and realistic post.

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Originally Posted by ShoogarBear

Yeah, piling on the Mahinmi thing. It's one thing to determine that somebody can't play. It's another to determine they can't play when YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THEM.

How can you look at Mahinmi's career stats versus Matt Bonner's and determine that one deserves a few minutes every night and one should never play?

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Ian played in one game and had better stats than any other Spur in the history of the organization not named David Robinson.

I'm siding with a combined version of Sabar and Manu4Tres's posts here..

I don't want to tank since I think it's pointless(the odds of getting the #1 pick in 3 straight lotteries is pretty much impossible + while Wall is a great prospect, he's not Tim Duncan or Lebron James..by the time he potentially becomes a superstar, Duncan and Parker will be done)..I'd rather just accept what we have, make the playoffs so we can see our big 3 perform together a few more times..

With that being said, I would still dump RJ and whoever else, and I would begin the youth movement..try to acquire a decent prospect and/or a 1st round pick in any trades..play the big 3 + Hill + Blair + Malik + Ian + any potential prospect we get in a trade and just live with what happens..title contender? absolutely not..threat to make the WCF? absolutely not..but just play, see what we have in our young guys, there's no harm in it at this point..

We'll have a better idea of what we have in on this team..it'll give the FO an easier assessment of what is needed in the off-season, and hopefully we can bring in Splitter..

The biggest problem I see...is that Pop has TOO MUCH POWER...when Pop was ON---this was a reassuring thing...to have a coach,GM,LEADER,talent evaluator,prez,etc
not even reporters summoned up the courage to question his moves,decisions,plays,rotations,etc...

but now this has become a problem, because he has really hurt this team for the last two seasons---but there is no-one there to put him to the fire--so-to speak,

Peter Holt is an awesome owner to not interfere with the coaching staff---but now---it also becomes a bad thing because he will undoubtedly just keep faith in Pop...

it becomes difficult because there is no-one to intervene and try to right the ship...

at one time I thought Tim or Tony or Manu could do some of this...but obviously the fact that ALL three are in the same mold (respectful team players and very,very professional) this won't happen either...

so we are stuck with a coach who was once great, but appears to have lost his touch and will be the main factor in the demise of a once great team.