Monroe: In order to save season, Pop should start Ginobili

In order to save season, Pop should start Ginobili
Mike Monroe

Near the end of the 2008-09 season, Spurs coach Gregg Popovich declared that his “Big Three” of Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili needed to reunite in the starting lineup.

The quote from Popovich, about an hour before Ginobili was to make his second start of the season, at Indianapolis on April 3: “I just think Manu coming off the bench has run its course. It's time for the three of them to play together. They're our three best players. They're going to make each other better on the court.”

By game's end, Ginobili had scored 16 points with seven rebounds and seven assists in a 126-121 Spurs victory.

Popovich's theory seemed sound.

Two days later, Ginobili limped down a hallway at Cleveland's Quicken Loans Arena after playing 23 relatively ineffective minutes and told the Express-News' Jeff McDonald and Buck Harvey he needed to have his right ankle checked out again.

It would be his final game of the season, and when he came back from a summer of resting and rehabilitating a stress fracture in the ankle, a limitation of minutes seemed medically sound. The best way to facilitate that and still have Ginobili on the floor in crunch time: bringing him from the bench again.

Ginobili has joked that he never wants to return to the starting lineup, simply because bad things happened last April.

Now Popovich has made another declaration about his starters. Before the Spurs played the Lakers on Monday night, he said the starting lineup he had used in the first four games of the rodeo road trip — Parker, Duncan, Richard Jefferson, Antonio McDyess and George Hill — likely will be his starting lineup for the remainder of the season.

Ginobili may find this a welcome relief, but you wonder if Popovich might want to rethink things when this stretch run arrives.

If “the three of them playing together” optimizes the productivity of the Big Three, then getting them on the floor together from the start has merit now, just as it did last April.

Doug Collins, the former coach of the Bulls, Pistons and Wizards who has become the best TV game analyst in the business, worked two of the Spurs' recent games for TNT. Those two games convinced him it is Ginobili who still has a chance to make this edition of the Spurs a special unit capable of making noise in the postseason.

Plenty of other things will have to happen, too. It would be nice if the Spurs started to get better return on investment from Jefferson, their key offseason acquisition. McDyess is only now beginning to get a feel for working in tandem with Duncan defensively.

But it is Ginobili, Collins said during a Tuesday phone interview, who remains the key.

“If they have any hope of doing anything in the playoffs,” he said, “Jefferson has to play better, but Ginobili is still the guy who makes them special.”

Collins still marvels at Duncan's consistency. He wonders if the first real dropoff in his play shows more at the defensive end.

The difference in Ginobili?

“He doesn't seem to be on balance shooting his perimeter shots,” said Collins, the No. 1 overall pick in the 1973 draft and a keen analyst of shooters.

The numbers bear out Collins' eyeballs. Never in Ginobili's seven previous seasons has he shot worse than 41.8 percent. He will take the court in Denver on Thursday at 40.4 percent for the season.

Collins knows shooting.

He knows intangible value, too.

Ginobili has it.

i dont see it being a bad idea, although its not going to save the season

More lineup changes 50 games in..

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.


P.S.

Monroe missed something that fit right into the article: The one time Manu started this year he got hurt. It was that game against the Mavs and Manu missed the next five games.

LOL @ Doug Collins being the best anything..

The Spurs rotations this season have been a mystery. I know this much: We need to have always at least 2 of the big 3 in there all the time.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.


P.S.

Monroe missed something that fit right into the article: The one time Manu started this year he got hurt. It was that game against the Mavs and Manu missed the next five games.

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Don't know too much about what's going on with the Spurs these days but isn't one of your problems playing too much small ball?

I think starting 2 PG's and a SG at SF would not help the cause.

But hey if RJ comes off the bench maybe he would be more effective. I think you guys want him to be a Bruce Bowen type of guy (great defender and can hit the big jumper even if he rarely touches the ball throughout the game.)

But RJ's game is more of a scoring type where he needs to get in a rythm. This is probably more likely if he comes off the bench, where he can be a go to guy for 5-8 minutes to get in that crucial rythm.

Wouldn't hurt to try at these point I guess. How much worse can it get?

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Originally Posted by timvp

Monroe missed something that fit right into the article: The one time Manu started this year he got hurt. It was that game against the Mavs and Manu missed the next five games.

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Right. And Manu himself said that he got the heebie jeebies about starting again after his groin injury in the one game he started.

If Manu gets injured again (oh no please!), then its curtains.

they've got to go back to this. i've said it before. with TP playing so poorly, Manu has got to shore up the offense of the starting unit.

and start Mason as well. go with a Mason, Manu, TP, backcourt. it's small, and horrible defensively, but start Ratliff or Mahinmi and let them funnel their man to the interior where they'll have to shoot over one of them or Timmy.

bring RJ of the bench along with Blair, and let Blair eat up RJ's misses. RJ can score against other teams' second unit more effectively and he can dominate the ball more, which i think he needs to do, but can't on this team as a starter.

I don't think it would help at all. Besides, the bench has been one of the team's strengths. No one would be hurt more by this move than DeJuan Blair. He and Manu have developed a nice chemistry with one another.

I'm curious whom would be that special playmaker coming off the bench if Manu starts. Outside of TP and Manu of the Gs/SFs, no one else has that ability to do it effectively in my opinion. This is where Brent Barry is fairly missed.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.

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The Spurs can't afford to spread the big three out over their patchwork roster anymore. They need to recapture the synergy that those three have when they feed off each other.

Meanwhile, if RJ's problem is that he should be option 1 or 2, not a 3 or 4, then the bench makes perfect sense.

RJ could play more individual offense and worry less about meshing with other more talented scorers.

His confidence could be restored if he is once again a "big fish in a small pond" on offense. If his offense was restored he might actually start playing better in other areas. Well, we could hope . . .

I like the move if its coupled with moving RJ to the bench. I think RJ may really build his confidence going against 2nd units; plus he'll get a chance to defer less on offense that way too. A Hill-RJ-Blair combo off the bench could be great.

I'd try starting the following: TP - MG - Bogans - TD - Dice

Now does Pop have the guts to sit his $14M SF?

Keith Bogans shouldn't be a starter for anybody..I wouldn't pick him on my team on the streets..

The only thing Pop needs to do to save the season is to stop with the small-ball bullshit, I know it's not an original take but there's a reason for that.

My dream scenario would be having Ian starting alongside Duncan but I know that won't happen so I settle with him or Theo beign part of the rotation and having two legit bigs on the court at all times, if Pop doesn't trust Ian and/or Theo to give them rotation minutes then trade for one he trusts. Many of our problems will be put in the shade just by adding a little size, specially the defensive ones. I still think we could make some noise in the playoffs but Pop has to play the right guys.

Also we're lacking a little shooting in the starting line-up so starting Mason instead of Hill could be a good idea too.

I have preached RJ coming off the bench this whole season as the one thing Spurs need to experiment with. Please let the fruition make my life complete.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Keith Bogans shouldn't be a starter for anybody..I wouldn't pick him on my team on the streets..

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I would. Remember, there aren't 6 fouls on the streets.

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Originally Posted by DAF86

Also we're lacking a little shooting in the starting line-up so starting Mason instead of Hill could be a good idea too.

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They both shoot 38% from 3, and Hill shoots better overall from the floor. I don't see the point of starting Mason -- especially factoring in D.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

LOL @ Doug Collins being the best anything..

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:lolLOL @ HarlemHeat and Timvp thinking they know more about basketball than Doug Collins.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

They both shoot 38% from 3, and Hill shoots better overall from the floor. I don't see the point of starting Mason -- especially factoring in D.

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That's 'cause Hill only takes three pointers from the corners, he isn't much of a threat from 3 from anywhere else, Mason on the other hand can hit three from everywhere and never passes on a wide open look, George does this 'cause he still doesn't trust that aspect of his game too much.

Everything Collins has said this week sounds right to me. I agree Ginobili should start, and that the Spurs made a huge mistake thinking that having a big next to Duncan who could shoot threes and space the floor was more important than a big who was a defensive presence... he's spot on. He's also a thousand times the commentator that Sean (I'm-an-embarrassing-homer-just-like-Tommy-Heinsohn) Eliott is.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Keith Bogans shouldn't be a starter for anybody..I wouldn't pick him on my team on the streets..

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At this point, he doesn't look much worse than RJ, who was a flat-out mental midget going up against Artest.

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Originally Posted by DAF86

The only thing Pop needs to do to save the season is to stop with the small-ball bullshit, I know it's not an original take but there's a reason for that.

My dream scenario would be having Ian starting alongside Duncan but I know that won't happen so I settle with him or Theo beign part of the rotation and having two legit bigs on the court at all times, if Pop doesn't trust Ian and/or Theo to give them rotation minutes then trade for one he trusts. Many of our problems will be put in the shade just by adding a little size, specially the defensive ones. I still think we could make some noise in the playoffs but Pop has to play the right guys.

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Remember that sequence vs the Lakers when they got 4 or 5 offensive rebounds before Odom made the and1? Our "bigs" looked so helpless against Gasol and Odom.
Fuck small ball.

I actually thought the turning point in the laker game was in the 3rd quarter when Odom just abused Blair several times (one was an uncontested blow by dunk) and Artest burned Finley driving right past him to the basket. After Pop called a timeout he subbed out Duncan for Jefferson for his normal run of small ball and Artest went apeshit on Finley with no interior defenders present.

Why does Popovich keep going to this Jefferson small ball crapola? The only thing I can think of is he's trying to make the frontcourt more athletic...

All this pretty much illustrates to me how badly the spurs could use a guy like Tyrus Thomas who could guard a guy like Odom and (hopefully) keep Pop from using small ball.

Stop Small Ball Pop!

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Originally Posted by pookenstein

Remember that sequence vs the Lakers when they got 4 or 5 offensive rebounds before Odom made the and1? Our "bigs" looked so helpless against Gasol and Odom.
Fuck small ball.

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Yep, that play keeps repeating itself on my mind, our guys played great defense with a lot of hustle (things that Spurs fans are bitching about) and they got nothing to show for because of the length problem.

The problem isn't Manu off the bench or Manu as a starter, it's fucking small ball. How about more Ratliff/Mahinmi and less Bonner/Finley? And Hairston for Bogans while we're at it...

not gonna change jack in overall outcome

The only problem with starting Manu is that he and Blair play pretty well together, however I think Mason and Blair could do a nice pick and roll, so long as Mason doesn't turn it over. I agree that RJ coming off the bench may better since he won't feel the need to defer. Besides, he's playing like shit, he should expect that to happen, anybody would. Yea, and Blair could rebound his misses. No more Bonner, he can't guard anybody and when he tries he usually picks up a foul. All he does is shoot 3's and makes 1/4 of them... no thanks. Besides he plays like crap on the road. Finley?! his time has passed, we don't have time for him to work himself back. We need W's!!!!!!

BTW.. what about RJ and Blair running pick and rolls? It would allow RJ to be more aggressive and the D would respect Blair allowing RJ the chance to score.. who knows.

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Originally Posted by blkroadrunners

I'm curious whom would be that special playmaker coming off the bench if Manu starts. Outside of TP and Manu of the Gs/SFs, no one else has that ability to do it effectively in my opinion. This is where Brent Barry is fairly missed.

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Screw the whole bench playmaker thing for now...it's not happening anyway. Time to get all 3 together to see if they can make up for each others' shortcomings. Also, I agree with whoever said that RJ coming off the bench could make it his team. Let him jack up any shot he wants and let Blair clean up after him.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.

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Actually, I'd rather see Parker, Mason, Ginobili, McDyess, TD. Maybe this unit can get a big lead that the bench can't piss away.

Starting Manu/benching Manu is always overrated. As if this one move fixes everything. It's always been a gimmick. At this point mad scientist rotations clearly mean "I have no idea what I'm doing."

Bench? Hill, RMJ, RJ, Blair and Ratliff or Mahinmi.

I've never seen this line up on the floor. But regarding a second unit this could provide a decent balance of perimeter and interior D along with spot up shooting, penetration and points in the paint.

This of course if a trade isn't made by the deadline.

I read the article, disected it, picked it clean put it back together and then took it all apart again and the thing I found most interesting was...




Doug Collins was a number 1 pick?!

Never been interested who are the starting five.
Always in the finishing five.

Games are rarely decided in the first 6' of the first quarter.
Maybe the Denver game will, though.

At any rate, Blair should be played with Ginobili: their connection is one of the few bright spots on this team this year.

At that point, we have nothing to loose to try different options...
As we've seen at the beginning of the season, when TP was hurt and Manu had less mins, RJ is far more productive when he is the first offensive option...

I don't know what impact Manu starting will have, but I'm definetely fine with RJ NOT STARTING!!!!

at this point pop can try what he wants

I don't see this as a problem or a solution. I continue to point the finger at small ball and poor time out management (when they are called).

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Keith Bogans shouldn't be a starter for anybody..I wouldn't pick him on my team on the streets..

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Really? Keith Bogans would run circles around you in any venue. He is a PROFESSIONAL basketball player. Your hardcore streetballer persona is suspect and tiresome. Give it a rest.

Whats the difference on who starts? Is he going to log more minutes starting?

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Originally Posted by rascal

Whats the difference on who starts? Is he going to log more minutes starting?

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Exactly.

I always like the idea of starting Ginobili. I think he will become more consistent. Also, RJ seems to play better when Ginobili is on the court - so perhaps RJ can get to good start early in the game to get in rhythm.

Spurs have two games to played before the trade deadline. It doesn't really matter who will start for this two games because there is a good chance that Spurs makes at least a minor trade that will change the rotation.

Saying that, Pop has played way too much with lineups this year. The day after the trade deadline, he had to fix a rotation and stick with it. Pop changing his mind on players every week is one of the reason why Spurs are so bad this year.

So bad the last two or three years.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.

Monroe missed something that fit right into the article: The one time Manu started this year he got hurt. It was that game against the Mavs and Manu missed the next five games.

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I've been arguing that Manu should never have been relegated to 6th man. Name any team in any sport that puts one of its top key players on the bench for 'reserve strength." That's Pop's conceit.

As far as the fact that Manu got hurt a couple of times while starting, that's pure voodoo bullshit. Should we also take Duncan and Parker out of the starting lineup because their injuries came while starting?

It's like those bullshit 'facts' that influence games like "The Lakers have lost their last nine games in Portland." It makes as much sense to cite something like that as to bet on a coin coming up 'heads' because it came up 'heads' the previous nine time.

Games, like coin tosses, stand on their own every time.

Finley Bonner Mason for Salmons Ty Thomas. :tu

spurs will have to trade manu to save the season. manu has a ton of value this year because of his expiring contract. phx would probably give us amare for manu at this point, even if they knew manu wouldn't re-sign with them, because they are looking to cut ties with amare. i think amare could be the difference

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

Really? Keith Bogans would run circles around you in any venue. He is a PROFESSIONAL basketball player. Your hardcore streetballer persona is suspect and tiresome. Give it a rest.

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easy there buddy.

y so srs?

in all seriousness, i think it wouldn't hurt. it's not working with rj in the starting lineup, and with him off the bench, he could definitely dominate the ball more, which is what he's always done.

In order to save the Season:
Stop guarding 7' players with 6'6" players

:flag: :lobt2:

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Originally Posted by himat

Don't know too much about what's going on with the Spurs these days but isn't one of your problems playing too much small ball?

I think starting 2 PG's and a SG at SF would not help the cause.

But hey if RJ comes off the bench maybe he would be more effective. I think you guys want him to be a Bruce Bowen type of guy (great defender and can hit the big jumper even if he rarely touches the ball throughout the game.)

But RJ's game is more of a scoring type where he needs to get in a rythm. This is probably more likely if he comes off the bench, where he can be a go to guy for 5-8 minutes to get in that crucial rythm.

Wouldn't hurt to try at these point I guess. How much worse can it get?

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Sound analysis of RJ ...

didn't pop try that several years ago? it didn't seem to work. gino didn't have that same burst of energy he does when he comes off the bench. maybe it'd be different now, but benching him first has always worked in the past

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

I've been arguing that Manu should never have been relegated to 6th man. Name any team in any sport that puts one of its top key players on the bench for 'reserve strength." That's Pop's conceit.

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......

I don't think the problem has been an issue with the Spurs getting off to slow starts in the first quarter, which would strike me as a reasonable explanation for starting Ginobili. Of late, it seems that the Spurs tend to start very quickly and then peter out as the game progresses, and I wonder if the mid-quarters sputtering would be more pronounced without Ginobili in the game to serve as a scoring bridge.

At bottom, I think the Spurs problems relate to personnel, but not with when those guys are playing (except to the extent that a general lack of useful size is an obvious shortcoming and the willingness to play small only makes it worse). The Spurs' inability to deter penetration and their wholesale inability to do anything after opponents get the ball into the middle won't change, even if Ginobili plays 48 minutes every night.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.

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I like
Parker Hill GNob BeastyBlair and Duncan
with McDysse off the bench as a replacement or added to Duncan and Blair, depending on the situation. Soft Dick should be given a very short leash but i agree, maybe it will take pressure off him to be coming off the bench. His lack of effort tho should have nothing to do with pressure. Another pathetic effort vs the Flamers.

Monroe is an idiot

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

I don't think the problem has been an issue with the Spurs getting off to slow starts in the first quarter, which would strike me as a reasonable explanation for starting Ginobili.

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I agree. I don't really see that Manu starting would fix the issue when the first few minutes of the game do not seem to be the problem.

:pctoss

This season has been more of a let down than The Watchmen.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Parker, Hill, Ginobili, McDyess and Duncan should be given a look if the tailspin continues. Maybe RJ feels less pressure off the bench and begins to play better.


P.S.

Monroe missed something that fit right into the article: The one time Manu started this year he got hurt. It was that game against the Mavs and Manu missed the next five games.

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That's not completely factual. He got hurt the game before, against Utah, I believe, but I could be wrong, and he insisted he was fine when he wasn't, and he aggravated the injury against Dallas.

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Originally Posted by ploto

I agree. I don't really see that Manu starting would fix the issue when the first few minutes of the game do not seem to be the problem.

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Just to provide some numbers, since the beginning of 2010, the Spurs have played 20 games. In those 20 games, they've averaged 27.6 points in first quarters.

They've been over 30 points in the first quarter 7 times in those 20 games and have scored between 25-29 points in the first quarter another 7 times.

In that span, the Spurs are 15-4-1 in terms of the first quarter score. Put differently, in that 20 game span, the Spurs are 10-10 overall, but in their 10 losses, they've won the first quarter 7 times and tied it one other time.

They've also shot better than 50% in the first quarter in 12 of those games and have been 55% or better 10 times.

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Originally Posted by roycrikside

That's not completely factual. He got hurt the game before, against Utah, I believe, but I could be wrong, and he insisted he was fine when he wasn't, and he aggravated the injury against Dallas.

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Didn't Manu have an injured hamstring that had Pop limiting his minutes ... but then actually hurt his groin against the Mavs? I remember them as two different injuries but perhaps I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

Just to provide some numbers, since the beginning of 2010, the Spurs have played 20 games. In those 20 games, they've averaged 27.6 points in first quarters (I don't have time to try to calculate a first quarter shooting percentage).

They've been over 30 points in the first quarter 7 times in those 20 games and have scored between 25-29 points in the first quarter another 7 times.

In that span, the Spurs are 15-4-1 in terms of the first quarter score. Put differently, in that 20 game span, the Spurs are 10-10 overall, but in their 10 losses, they've won the first quarter 7 times and tied it one other time.

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What about 3th quarters?

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Originally Posted by it's me

What about 3th quarters?

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I'm sure those numbers aren't pretty.

C'mon now... Colins is a good analyst. Shitty coach but good analyst. Since he did two Spurs games close to each other, he brought up some spot on points. In the Portland game he brought up how crucial 4th qtr execution was and how it was lacking with this year's Spurs among other things.

Starting Manu does nothing to change interior defense (especially in the 4th). Starting Manu will not eliminate timely turnovers in the 4th qtr nor will it give us stops in the last 2 minutes. It won't let us execute our half court offense in the last 2 minutes which used to be automatic. What it may do... (if bringing Jeffito off the bench is part of that too) is get Jeff's shot back. Bonner looked like a huge cow turd starting but played very well coming off the bench. He wasn't gaurding the starter and found a rythem against bench caliber players. RJ wouold be one of the primary scoring options, get good touches against weaker defenders and it could help him find his shot. The COULD (not saying would) translate to the 4th qtr. How many good looks has he clanked come crunch time that could have changed the dynamics of the game? There have been plenty of times ALL the Spurs have come up empty. If the move allowed RJ to find his shot, at least we'd have a solid option in the 4th during our scoring droughts. It won't solve small ball but it could help RJ's game. Hell... it couldnt' hurt it.

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Originally Posted by sananspursfan21

didn't pop try that several years ago? it didn't seem to work. gino didn't have that same burst of energy he does when he comes off the bench. maybe it'd be different now, but benching him first has always worked in the past

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The only season Manu played a full season as a starter was his best season: 04/05 where he "coincidentally" went to the all-star game.

So we bench RJ? Parker, Duncan, RJ, Manu, and Dyess on the court .. great on paper, I think its bad off.

sounds better than rj.......

Time to forget the bench. If the starters (incl. Manu) can only play 30-32 minutes a game, fine, let them play the first 3 quarters with no rest and try and get a 20 point lead. If they whine about being tired, ask which one of them wants RJ to sub in for them. That should cure them. Then, hope and pray that the bench doesn't piss it all away in the 4th. That way, when RJ does come in during the 4th with the game in control, what he does wouldn't matter. It doesn't matter anyway, but let's plan for it not mattering at all. Also, Ratliff can do what he does best...block shots without worrying about making any. Bonner can keep playing in the sandbox, or whatever it is he does during the game.

This strategy should also stop some of Pop's crazier line-up tinkering when the game actually matters. Let him do all that crazy shit late in the 4th when (hopefully) it doesn't matter. Wanna play Bonner at PG and Finley at Center? Go for it.

maybe not playing manu period in the first half would be wiser
spurs struggle in 3 not first

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

I don't think the problem has been an issue with the Spurs getting off to slow starts in the first quarter, which would strike me as a reasonable explanation for starting Ginobili. Of late, it seems that the Spurs tend to start very quickly and then peter out as the game progresses, and I wonder if the mid-quarters sputtering would be more pronounced without Ginobili in the game to serve as a scoring bridge.

At bottom, I think the Spurs problems relate to personnel, but not with when those guys are playing (except to the extent that a general lack of useful size is an obvious shortcoming and the willingness to play small only makes it worse). The Spurs' inability to deter penetration and their wholesale inability to do anything after opponents get the ball into the middle won't change, even if Ginobili plays 48 minutes every night.

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To be honest, I don't even know who Mike was trying to fool with that article. Starting Manu is not going to stop penetration, block shots, heal Tony's PF, turn on RJ's aggresivenes, make Bogans a good perimeter defender, or stop Pop from playing small or flat out silly lineups.

I can't even fathom Monroe being so disconnected with reality.

So basically Monroe got a few quotes from Collins, kissed his ass in return for helping him out, and then cranked out this article because he was probably on deadline, and then some copy editor comes up with the most over the top title possible so people will read it. Gotta love the journalistic process.