WASHINGTON – Nine suspects tied to a Christian militia in the Midwest are charged with conspiring to kill police officers, then attack a funeral in the hopes of killing more law enforcement personnel, federal prosecutors said Monday.
U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade said agents moved on the group because the Hutaree members were planning a violent reconaissance mission sometime in April — just a few days away.
Members of the group called Hutaree are charged in the case, including their leader, David Brian Stone, also known as "Captain Hutaree."
Once other officers gathered for a slain officer's funeral, the group planned to detonate homemade bombs at the funeral, killing more, according to newly unsealed court papers.
According to the indictment, the idea of attacking a police funeral was one of numerous scenarios discussed as ways to go after law enforcement officers. Other scenarios included a fake 911 call to lure an officer to his or her death, or an attack on the family of a police officer.
After such attacks, the group allegedly planned to retreat to "rally points" protected by trip-wired improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, for what they expected would become a violent standoff with law enforcement personnel.
"It is believed by the Hutaree that this engagement would then serve as a catalyst for a more wide-sread uprising against the government," the indictment charges.
It includes charges of seditious conspiracy, possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, teaching the use of explosives, and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction — homemade bombs.
The indictment charges members of the group conspired "to levy war against the United States, (and) to oppose by force the authority of the government of the United States."
The charges follow FBI raids over the weekend on locations in Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana.
According to investigators, the Hutaree view local, state, and federal law enforcement personnel as a "brotherhood" and an enemy, and planned to attack them as part of an armed struggle against the U.S. government.
Eight suspects have been arrested by the FBI, and one more is being sought. Of the eight captured, seven are due in court later Monday.
Andrew Arena, head of the FBI's field office in Detroit, said the case "is an example of radical and extremist fringe groups which can be found throughout our society. The FBI takes such extremist groups seriously, especially those who would target innocent citizens and the law enforcement officers who protect the citizens of the United States."
On its Web site, Hutaree quotes several Bible passages and states: "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. ... Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment."
The group didn't return an e-mail sent by The Associated Press and phone numbers for the group's leadership were not immediately available.
Law enforcement swarmed a rural, wooded property Saturday evening near Adrian, about 70 miles southwest of Detroit. Two ramshackle trailers sat side-by-side on the property, the door to one slightly ajar late Sunday as if it had been forced open.
Phyllis Brugger, who has lived in the area for more than 30 years, said some people who lived there were known as having ties to militia. They would shoot guns and often wore camouflage, according to Brugger and her daughter, Heidi Wood.
"Everybody knew they were militia," Brugger said. "You don't mess with them."
In Hammond, Ind., 18-year-old George Ponce, who works at a pizzeria next door to a home that was raided, said he and a few co-workers stepped outside for a break Saturday night and saw a swarm of law enforcement.
"I heard a yell, 'Get back inside!' and saw a squad member pointing a rifle at us," Ponce said. "They told us the bomb squad was going in, sweeping the house looking for bombs."
He said another agent was in the bushes near the house, and law enforcement vehicles were "all over." He estimated that agents took more than two dozen guns from the house.
In Ohio, one of the raids occurred at Bayshore Estates, a well-kept trailer park in Sandusky, a small city on Lake Erie between Toledo and Cleveland. Neighbors said the man taken into custody lived in a trailer on a cul-de-sac with his wife and two young children.
Dammit! They use CCR as a moniker for Colonial Christian Republic.
John Fogerty is gonna be pissed.
03-29-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Should we try these guys in a civilian court? Why not send them to Gitmo?
03-29-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Obviously, the correct solution here is to lock them away for years with limited to no legal recognition, aggressively interrogate them, then use whatever information that's been elicited in the trial.
03-29-2010
EVAY
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
boutons in 5....
4....
3....
2....
:lol
03-29-2010
coyotes_geek
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
boutons in 5....
4....
3....
2....
capitalists repugs majik negro banksters depression pitbull bitch dubya evil corporations war for oil teabaggers becKKK neoc*nts bitch slapped conservatives!!!!
03-29-2010
EmptyMan
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
I'll never understand how these morons choose their targets.
Like kids playing a video game with real guns but it got a little outa' control...:lol
Their ranking system is much like a video game.
Really poor web-design. Noobs.
03-29-2010
Winehole23
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Deep packet inspection is a bitch, DR.
Quote:
Deep Packet Inspection (DPI) is the act of any IP network equipment which is not an endpoint of a communication using non-header content (typically the actual payload) for some purpose.
Such lovely plans for a Christian group to make for Holy Week and the Easter season. I hope all other people of faith come out and criticize them swiftly and sharply.
03-29-2010
SnakeBoy
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Very convenient timing.
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
Very convenient timing.
Meaning?
03-30-2010
Nbadan
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptyMan
I'll never understand how these morons choose their targets.
I'm glad Obama's Homeland Security Dept were on the lookout for right wing extremists!
03-30-2010
TeyshaBlue
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
...with their cross-hairs apparently..
Looking at their pics, I think you misspelled something. Cross-heirs. :lol
03-30-2010
boutons_deux
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
"Very convenient timing"
yes! Just like the convenience of dubya and dickhead's Exec allowing 9/11 to happen while they just happened to be looking for a pretext in invade Iraq for oil.
03-30-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Were these the people who spat at Congressman Emanuel Cleaver?
EDIT> Oh wait, nobody did.
03-30-2010
Oh, Gee!!
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
darrin making light of a plan to murder law enforcement officers in cold blood.
03-30-2010
Bartleby
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
Looking at their pics, I think you misspelled something. Cross-heirs. :lol
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Jesus, please let me change the subject to distract from my being owned by the Bush administration's report on right wing extremists in the US.
03-30-2010
Duff McCartney
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Were these the people who spat at Congressman Emanuel Cleaver?
EDIT> Oh wait, nobody did.
Just like nobody intentionally shot at Eric Cantors window.
03-30-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
I wonder if Obama is looking for his Waco?
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I wonder if Obama is looking for his Waco?
Even for you, this is unbelievably stupid.
03-30-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duff McCartney
Just like nobody intentionally shot at Eric Cantors window.
No, actually there is proof of the threat against Cantor and there's already been an arrest.
But, strangely enough, the thousands of cameras and flip phones on the scene failed to capture the alleged N-word and spitting incident. (because it didn't happen)
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Strangely enough, this thread isn't about that at all.
03-30-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Strangely enough, this thread isn't about that at all.
You're right. The thread is about an extremely small, kooky fringe fanatical religious group that was plotting to kill some people law enforcement. And it was the TOP news story. I wonder why?
Diane Sawyer described them as an anti-government, Christian group. Hmmmm.
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
You're right. The thread is about an extremely small, kooky fringe fanatical religious group that was plotting to kill some people law enforcement. And it was the TOP news story. I wonder why?
Because they were a kooky fringe fanatical religious group that was plotting to kill some people law enforcement.
Quote:
Diane Sawyer described them as an anti-government, Christian group. Hmmmm.
Would you describe them as a pro-government, atheist group?
Yes or no?
03-30-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Because they were a kooky fringe fanatical religious group that was plotting to kill some people law enforcement.
This little group was really worthy of the TOP story on ABC news?
I guess there were no runaway Toyota Prius incidents.
The MSM is embarrassing itself.
03-30-2010
Oh, Gee!!
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Darrin's beef is with the placement of the news story in relation to other news stories. Darrin should be a producer, then he can decide what story gets the lead on the nightly news.
03-30-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Even for you, this is unbelievably stupid.
Damn...
I keep forgetting to use blue.
03-30-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!
Darrin's beef is with the placement of the news story in relation to other news stories. Darrin should be a producer, then he can decide what story gets the lead on the nightly news.
Someone decided this should be the TOP story. Do you agree?
03-30-2010
Oh, Gee!!
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
he can't dispute the facts of the story, or add anything to the conversation. nope. darrin prefers to play armchair tv producer and let us know how he'd run the nightly news on ABC. "Our lead tonight: this youtube video I found."
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
This little group was really worthy of the TOP story on ABC news?
I guess there were no runaway Toyota Prius incidents.
The MSM is embarrassing itself.
You're embarrassing yourself. The Bush administration owned you severely and you want desperately to downplay it.
It was a fairly slow news day from what I saw. Given the violence that has been perpetrated by one person or a few people, it's as good a story as any.
Is there some new birther story they should be following?
03-30-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by CumDumpster
You're embarrassing yourself. The Bush administration owned you severely and you want desperately to downplay it.
What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CumDumpster
It was a fairly slow news day from what I saw. Given the violence that has been perpetrated by one person or a few people, it's as good a story as any.
What violence?
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
It's on the front page of foxnews.com.
Top middle column of drudge.
Front page of wsj.com.
They are all owning you.
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
What?
You can play dumb because you are dumb.
Quote:
What violence?
You can play dumb because you are dumb.
03-30-2010
Oh, Gee!!
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Someone decided this should be the TOP story. Do you agree?
Sure, it is newsworthy when a homegrown terrorist organization gets busted, and I see nothing wrong with making it the lead. ABC could have made it the second or third or last report of the evening for all I care, but they didn't and I'm fine with it. I do find it rather bitchy of you that you are so deeply offended about the order of the reports on ABC news.
03-30-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Why don't you answer these questions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Would you describe them as a pro-government, atheist group?
Yes or no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Is there some new birther story they should be following?
03-30-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?
In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?
03-30-2010
Oh, Gee!!
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?
In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?
sounds like an offensive from what I read, but you know how the gotcha media likes to portray you "conservative/anti-authority" folks.
03-30-2010
Michael Brown
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?
In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?
Apparently, they were planning to carry it out in April, which is what prompted the arrests.
03-31-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?
In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?
Tell you what, why don't you actually read about them and let us know. Otherwise, you'll be making up excuses for them all week.
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?
What 'illegal actions' from the government would justify killing civilians?
I'd like to hear more about the theory you're advancing here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?
They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?
03-31-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?
Isn't conspiracy to commit a crime also a crime?
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Isn't conspiracy to commit a crime also a crime?
I think you need at least one overt act in furtherance of the agreement to commit a crime in order to have a case. Although I'm not sure if it's always necessary (IE: If one of the accused cuts a deal and decides to implicate everyone else).
03-31-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I think you need at least one overt act in furtherance of the agreement to commit a crime in order to have a case. Although I'm not sure if it's always necessary (IE: If one of the accused cuts a deal and decides to implicate everyone else).
Sure, but it might be as nebulous as buying a gun or ammo. If they had been monitoring them for almost a year, it's probably a fair bet the US attorney has something that meets the requirement.
03-31-2010
Def Rowe
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
You can always tell the Darrins guy is miffed when he pulls out the cum dumpster wrote card in his retorts... from work.
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Sure, but it might be as nebulous as buying a gun or ammo. If they had been monitoring them for almost a year, it's probably a fair bet the US attorney has something that meets the requirement.
Right... which is most likely what they're going to be charged with. Unfortunately, the OP is lacking on those details.
03-31-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Ah, other reports have it
Quote:
He and the others face charges that include seditious conspiracy, or plotting to levy war against the U.S.
In recent months, Hutaree members had conducted military exercises with live ammunition and allegedly tried to obtain materials for bombs that could be used as "weapons of mass destruction."
What 'illegal actions' from the government would justify killing civilians?
I'd like to hear more about the theory you're advancing here...
It appears the government is on the path of burning the constitution, and becoming an authoritarian police state. Besides, they are already targeting groups for belief rather than action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?
Yes, did they actually commit a crime.
Chump says they were planning an actual attack which would be signified by an actual time-frame. If this is the case, then I say they are guilty, and lock them up, or better yet, shoot them for treason. However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.
03-31-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
It sure didn't take long for you to side up with the nutbag child molesters and murderers. :toast
03-31-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
This little group was really worthy of the TOP story on ABC news?
You're talking about a fanatic group, allegedly using terrorist tactics like IEDs, who planned on killing police officers, and you're wondering why it's top news?
The same people that breathlessly talk about Britney Spears, or the latest Rush Limbaugh quote, or any number of inane topics? Really DarrinS?
03-31-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?
In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?
I'm guessing they wouldn't have been arrested without actual intent.
03-31-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.
And if dinosaurs were real, they might step on my car.
Let's face it, if the government monitored these guys for a year, then nabbed them, is anyone willing to believe that they somehow didn't gather enough evidence to convict? These people don't look like the Oceans 11 gang, after all.
My question is, do they get a normal trial? Or do they get sent to GTMO for military commissions? After all, if they're charged as terrorists then they're technically unlawful combatants, right?
03-31-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
And if dinosaurs were real, they might step on my car.
Let's face it, if the government monitored these guys for a year, then nabbed them, is anyone willing to believe that they somehow didn't gather enough evidence to convict? These people don't look like the Oceans 11 gang, after all.
My question is, do they get a normal trial? Or do they get sent to GTMO for military commissions? After all, if they're charged as terrorists then they're technically unlawful combatants, right?
Oh, I agree they are probably guilty as charged. I just feel like stiring the pot today.
03-31-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Oh, I agree they are probably guilty as charged. I just feel like stiring the pot today.
Fair enough.
03-31-2010
Winehole23
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
The FBI apparently had an informant inside the militia. Given the pattern in the last few high profile busts, it's hard not to ask whether and to what extent the FBI was stirring the pot themselves.
03-31-2010
RandomGuy
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Right... which is most likely what they're going to be charged with. Unfortunately, the OP is lacking on those details.
Sorry man. I fell down on the follow up.
I posted the story less than an hour after it broke, so the initial report was somewhat sketchy.
03-31-2010
RandomGuy
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
These people don't look like the Oceans 11 gang, after all.
Understatement of the Year prize goes to:
LnGrrrR :lobt2:
03-31-2010
elbamba
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Should we try these guys in a civilian court? Why not send them to Gitmo?
They are American citizens correct? I don't see how you can constitutionally deprive them of their rights as American citizens.
03-31-2010
elbamba
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?
From everything else that has been discussed it seems like there is enough to move forward with conspiracy charges. However, if the evidence is insufficient to convict, or the US fails to meet its burden, they have no choice but to let them go. These people will be entitled to the presumption of innocence that comes with our criminal system. Whether they deserve it or not.
03-31-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbamba
They are American citizens correct? I don't see how you can constitutionally deprive them of their rights as American citizens.
Jose Padilla held dual citizenship, if I recall, making him an American citizen. He still went to GTMO.
03-31-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
I'd be willing to bet that the Feds bust small-time wackjob groups like this routinely.
03-31-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
I'd be willing to bet that the Feds bust small-time wackjob groups like this routinely.
I notice no word on whether or not you think this group of guys/girls, or similar groups, should be sent to GTMO and processed there.
03-31-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
I notice no word on whether or not you think this group of guys/girls, or similar groups, should be sent to GTMO and processed there.
From what I understand, these people have been arrested for conspiracy to commit capital murder. Do you consider them enemy combatants? Don't get me wrong, I think they deserve the harshest punishment, but I don't understand WTF this has to do with GITMO.
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
It appears the government is on the path of burning the constitution, and becoming an authoritarian police state. Besides, they are already targeting groups for belief rather than action.
And you believe the course of action to counter that is kill other civilians, as opposed to, say, using the justice system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Chump says they were planning an actual attack which would be signified by an actual time-frame. If this is the case, then I say they are guilty, and lock them up, or better yet, shoot them for treason. However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.
There's nothing like summarily executing American citizens based solely on opinion. Who are you calling authoritarian again?
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbamba
They are American citizens correct? I don't see how you can constitutionally deprive them of their rights as American citizens.
Well, you could under the original MCA. The 2009 revised version only applies to aliens now.
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbamba
From everything else that has been discussed it seems like there is enough to move forward with conspiracy charges. However, if the evidence is insufficient to convict, or the US fails to meet its burden, they have no choice but to let them go. These people will be entitled to the presumption of innocence that comes with our criminal system. Whether they deserve it or not.
Exactly.
03-31-2010
DarrinS
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Bottom line:
The arrest of 9 people in this conspiracy is proof that there is a vast right-wing domestic terror threat and completely validates Janet Nepoletano's DHS memo. Well, except none of these 9 people are veterans from Iraq that suddenly went rogue.
03-31-2010
Oh, Gee!!
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
I don't remember the memo defining the potential threat in such narrow terms, Darrin.
03-31-2010
Winehole23
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Darrin can't play straight. He always loads the dice.
03-31-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Quote:
Chump says they were planning an actual attack which would be signified by an actual time-frame. If this is the case, then I say they are guilty, and lock them up, or better yet, shoot them for treason. However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.
There's nothing like summarily executing American citizens based solely on opinion. Who are you calling authoritarian again?
There is nothing summarily about it "if this is the case." Why should we pay for lifetime incarceration? Animals who cannot be civil in society need no be in society.
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
There is nothing summarily about it "if this is the case." Why should we pay for lifetime incarceration? Animals who cannot be civil in society need no be in society.
Because we have a justice system that dictates what the verdicts should be. Only authoritarians impose their will over the law.
03-31-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Because we have a justice system that dictates what the verdicts should be. Only authoritarians impose their will over the law.
Can't you see that I implied they had to be convicted first? And that I am for the changes in law? For me to impose my view over the law would be to become a vigilante in such cases.
We have the death penalty already. I am all for expanding it. I disagree with you calling it authoritarian, but I'm not going to argue that point if that's how you wish to see it. Besides, it's no surprise I am all for the death penalty, is it? I have advocated it before, and do believe it to be a viable deterrent.
03-31-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Can't you see that I implied they had to be convicted first? And that I am for the changes in law? For me to impose my view over the law would be to become a vigilante in such cases.
We have the death penalty already. I am all for expanding it. I disagree with you calling it authoritarian, but I'm not going to argue that point if that's how you wish to see it. Besides, it's no surprise I am all for the death penalty, is it? I have advocated it before, and do believe it to be a viable deterrent.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect it.
However, let me tell you that I don't think you can show me any study where there's any proof that the death penalty actually has been an effective deterrent. Furthermore, as far as costs are concerned, I seem to recall that it costs more money to have people in death row than a life term in prison.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
03-31-2010
Wild Cobra
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect it.
However, let me tell you that I don't think you can show me any study where there's any proof that the death penalty actually has been an effective deterrent. Furthermore, as far as costs are concerned, I seem to recall that it costs more money to have people in death row than a life term in prison.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Under current law, that may be so. That needs to be changed too. I cannot think of too many things worse than waiting years for the penalty to take place. Talk about cruel and unusual punishment...
04-01-2010
Winehole23
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cobra
Under current law, that may be so. That needs to be changed too. I cannot think of too many things worse than waiting years for the penalty to take place. Talk about cruel and unusual punishment...
Who's complaining about a tardy death sentence again, besides you, for someone else's sentence? :lol
04-01-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
From what I understand, these people have been arrested for conspiracy to commit capital murder. Do you consider them enemy combatants? Don't get me wrong, I think they deserve the harshest punishment, but I don't understand WTF this has to do with GITMO.
Let's assume the hypothetical where they actually carried out the terrorist attack. Do you believe they should then be entitled to the full protections of law as US citizens? Or do you think that, by committing this act of terrorism it is actually an act of war, thereby making them unlawful enemy combatants?
04-01-2010
ChumpDumper
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Bottom line:
The arrest of 9 people in this conspiracy is proof that there is a vast right-wing domestic terror threat and completely validates Janet Nepoletano's DHS memo. Well, except none of these 9 people are veterans from Iraq that suddenly went rogue.
Bottom line:
The Bush administration completely owned you with its report and you are still whining about it.
04-01-2010
elbamba
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Jose Padilla held dual citizenship, if I recall, making him an American citizen. He still went to GTMO.
Wikipedia says you are wrong. He was held in a military brig in South Carolina. Whether Wikipedia can be trusted, I wouldn't cite it in a legal brief.
04-01-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbamba
Wikipedia says you are wrong. He was held in a military brig in South Carolina. Whether Wikipedia can be trusted, I wouldn't cite it in a legal brief.
That said, he was indeed denied a trial in civilian courts.
04-01-2010
elbamba
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
That said, he was indeed denied a trial in civilian courts.
Yes, it is BS to deny him his rights as a citizen of this country.
04-01-2010
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbamba
Yes, it is BS to deny him his rights as a citizen of this country.
I believe the MCA update of 2009 removed the ability to do that to citizens.
That said, considering we were discussing not long ago that the executive can order the summary execution of american citizens, I'm not sure it really matters... :lol
04-01-2010
LnGrrrR
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I believe the MCA update of 2009 removed the ability to do that to citizens.
That said, considering we were discussing not long ago that the executive can order the summary execution of american citizens, I'm not sure it really matters... :lol
Thanks for the clarification ElBamba; ElNoNo, thanks for speaking to my larger point.
Maybe Obama's wish of an indefinite detention time is the way he plans on getting around that pesky Bill of Rights.
04-01-2010
panic giraffe
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
i wonder how good ole' joe six packs like this would feel if us inner city folk had our own. we're we organized urban combat teams to defend our beliefs. they would probably quit their weekend warrior bullshit fast.
04-30-2010
Winehole23
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Quote:
HUTTAREE HOOPLA UPDATE: Judge asks feds to show militia did more than talk. “A federal judge challenged prosecutors Wednesday to show that nine members of a Michigan militia accused of plotting war against the government had done more than just talk and should remain locked up. . . . Roberts pressed that point more than once as Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald Waterstreet argued in favor of keeping the nine in jail. The judge suggested she didn’t hear or read in the transcripts any indication that violence was imminent. ‘Mere presence where a crime may be planned is not a crime. … How does this add up to seditious conspiracy?’ Roberts said.”
lol "The WMD Charges against White People Get Thrown Out"
Silly headline and concluding sentence to be sure, but Wheeler supports the judge's conclusion that vile speech can't be prosecuted.
Do you?
03-28-2012
ElNono
Re: Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot
Answers the question I asked back then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?
