Terrorists charged in Police-killing plot

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I think you need at least one overt act in furtherance of the agreement to commit a crime in order to have a case. Although I'm not sure if it's always necessary (IE: If one of the accused cuts a deal and decides to implicate everyone else).

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Sure, but it might be as nebulous as buying a gun or ammo. If they had been monitoring them for almost a year, it's probably a fair bet the US attorney has something that meets the requirement.

You can always tell the Darrins guy is miffed when he pulls out the cum dumpster wrote card in his retorts... from work.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Sure, but it might be as nebulous as buying a gun or ammo. If they had been monitoring them for almost a year, it's probably a fair bet the US attorney has something that meets the requirement.

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Right... which is most likely what they're going to be charged with. Unfortunately, the OP is lacking on those details.

Ah, other reports have it

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He and the others face charges that include seditious conspiracy, or plotting to levy war against the U.S.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100331/...s/us_fbi_raids

thanks :toast

If true, this should about do it.

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Originally Posted by LA Times

In recent months, Hutaree members had conducted military exercises with live ammunition and allegedly tried to obtain materials for bombs that could be used as "weapons of mass destruction."

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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,1491379.story

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Originally Posted by ElNono

What 'illegal actions' from the government would justify killing civilians?
I'd like to hear more about the theory you're advancing here...

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It appears the government is on the path of burning the constitution, and becoming an authoritarian police state. Besides, they are already targeting groups for belief rather than action.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?

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Yes, did they actually commit a crime.

Chump says they were planning an actual attack which would be signified by an actual time-frame. If this is the case, then I say they are guilty, and lock them up, or better yet, shoot them for treason. However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.

It sure didn't take long for you to side up with the nutbag child molesters and murderers. :toast

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

This little group was really worthy of the TOP story on ABC news?

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You're talking about a fanatic group, allegedly using terrorist tactics like IEDs, who planned on killing police officers, and you're wondering why it's top news?

The same people that breathlessly talk about Britney Spears, or the latest Rush Limbaugh quote, or any number of inane topics? Really DarrinS?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I haven't really followed this story, but anyone know if these were actual plans to act on, or just plans in case the government started illegal actions against the populous?

In the military, we make contingency plans for any imaginable scenario. Just saying, is it possible?

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I'm guessing they wouldn't have been arrested without actual intent.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.

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And if dinosaurs were real, they might step on my car.

Let's face it, if the government monitored these guys for a year, then nabbed them, is anyone willing to believe that they somehow didn't gather enough evidence to convict? These people don't look like the Oceans 11 gang, after all.

My question is, do they get a normal trial? Or do they get sent to GTMO for military commissions? After all, if they're charged as terrorists then they're technically unlawful combatants, right?

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

And if dinosaurs were real, they might step on my car.

Let's face it, if the government monitored these guys for a year, then nabbed them, is anyone willing to believe that they somehow didn't gather enough evidence to convict? These people don't look like the Oceans 11 gang, after all.

My question is, do they get a normal trial? Or do they get sent to GTMO for military commissions? After all, if they're charged as terrorists then they're technically unlawful combatants, right?

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Oh, I agree they are probably guilty as charged. I just feel like stiring the pot today.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Oh, I agree they are probably guilty as charged. I just feel like stiring the pot today.

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Fair enough.

The FBI apparently had an informant inside the militia. Given the pattern in the last few high profile busts, it's hard not to ask whether and to what extent the FBI was stirring the pot themselves.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Right... which is most likely what they're going to be charged with. Unfortunately, the OP is lacking on those details.

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Sorry man. I fell down on the follow up.

I posted the story less than an hour after it broke, so the initial report was somewhat sketchy.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

These people don't look like the Oceans 11 gang, after all.

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Understatement of the Year prize goes to:



LnGrrrR :lobt2:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Should we try these guys in a civilian court? Why not send them to Gitmo?

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They are American citizens correct? I don't see how you can constitutionally deprive them of their rights as American citizens.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

They're not military, they're civilians. But you bring a good point, which tangentially touches what I was asking earlier (a question that, not surprisingly, was followed by deafening silence). If these guys didn't really carry out any of those acts, and it turns out that the firearms they possessed are legal, what are they going to be charged with, exactly?
I'm not 100% up to date with the current anti-terror laws, but are we already penalizing thought crimes?

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From everything else that has been discussed it seems like there is enough to move forward with conspiracy charges. However, if the evidence is insufficient to convict, or the US fails to meet its burden, they have no choice but to let them go. These people will be entitled to the presumption of innocence that comes with our criminal system. Whether they deserve it or not.

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Originally Posted by elbamba

They are American citizens correct? I don't see how you can constitutionally deprive them of their rights as American citizens.

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Jose Padilla held dual citizenship, if I recall, making him an American citizen. He still went to GTMO.

I'd be willing to bet that the Feds bust small-time wackjob groups like this routinely.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I'd be willing to bet that the Feds bust small-time wackjob groups like this routinely.

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I notice no word on whether or not you think this group of guys/girls, or similar groups, should be sent to GTMO and processed there.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I notice no word on whether or not you think this group of guys/girls, or similar groups, should be sent to GTMO and processed there.

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From what I understand, these people have been arrested for conspiracy to commit capital murder. Do you consider them enemy combatants? Don't get me wrong, I think they deserve the harshest punishment, but I don't understand WTF this has to do with GITMO.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

It appears the government is on the path of burning the constitution, and becoming an authoritarian police state. Besides, they are already targeting groups for belief rather than action.

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And you believe the course of action to counter that is kill other civilians, as opposed to, say, using the justice system?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Chump says they were planning an actual attack which would be signified by an actual time-frame. If this is the case, then I say they are guilty, and lock them up, or better yet, shoot them for treason. However, if they only planned hypothetical attacks for certain scenarios, and like you suggest, had legal arms... then this was an attack on US citizens by our government. Just like Waco.

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There's nothing like summarily executing American citizens based solely on opinion. Who are you calling authoritarian again?

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Originally Posted by elbamba

They are American citizens correct? I don't see how you can constitutionally deprive them of their rights as American citizens.

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Well, you could under the original MCA. The 2009 revised version only applies to aliens now.

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Originally Posted by elbamba

From everything else that has been discussed it seems like there is enough to move forward with conspiracy charges. However, if the evidence is insufficient to convict, or the US fails to meet its burden, they have no choice but to let them go. These people will be entitled to the presumption of innocence that comes with our criminal system. Whether they deserve it or not.

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Exactly.