Obama died and met our Founding Fathers

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

I don't know about Socrates owning slaves, but I don't hold any of those other people in high regard. They were just men and women, nothing more and nothing less. They had flaws just like everyone else, and it shows in statements like "all men are created equal", yet still own slaves.

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I'm not sure SNC will have an explaination for his inclusion of Socrates, perhaps a direct challenge can get you some attention?

founding fathers: liberty for all and tyranny sucks. hey darky get back to the plantation!

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

I'm not sure SNC will have an explaination for his inclusion of Socrates, perhaps a direct challenge can get you some attention?

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I think he was making a point that all the Greeks owned slaves in the house who did numerous tasks like cooking, cleaning, and all that.

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Originally Posted by TheManFromAcme

:toast Why thank you Blake but still not as lame as your plastic knowledge of things.

:lol

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what does "plastic knowledge of things" mean? :lol

sounds like a term you made up on your own. lame. :toast

I'm glad nobody has said USA should put all black people on a boat back to Africa with a few dollars in their pockets so that they can have a better life than the one they have now. That would be racist and wrong. Shows how far this site, our country has come.:toast

Heard the joke back in 2002 when Osama bin Ladin died and was met by the same group and St. Peter says, 'Oh, I thought you said Vir-GINIANS.'

Doesn't work quite as well in your usage.

Well, all I have left to say is if the Founding Fathers treated Obama likes this, I'd hate to see what would happen to GW. :(

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

I'm not judging them on our present day moral norms, I'm judging them on what their moral norms were. Most notably "We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are created equal."

I didn't write that but I sure as hell believe it. They obviously didn't...or as I said before, they probably did, they just didn't see the black man as a real man.

I don't know about Socrates owning slaves, but I don't hold any of those other people in high regard. They were just men and women, nothing more and nothing less. They had flaws just like everyone else, and it shows in statements like "all men are created equal", yet still own slaves.

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don't you think their morals lead them to put that in there?

Socrates would never had become what he is to society if it weren't for Plato, who thought slavery to be a natural part of life.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

You did miss something because the "dismissals" were brought up as an effort to show an example of hypocrisy in the founders' plan, not to categorically condemn them, or suggest it could have been any other way.

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My comment dealt with the alleged hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

don't you think their morals lead them to put that in there?

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Okay, but it probably lead them to put it in there, but not to actually follow that principle.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

Socrates would never had become what he is to society if it weren't for Plato, who thought slavery to be a natural part of life.

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So Plato thought slavery was a natural part of life? What does that have to do with what Socrates thought? They are two different people.

Yeah I should have put Plato instead of Socrates.

Interesting how conservatives revere the founders of this country...and leftists despise them.

"Oh...we don't despise them, but they weren't as great as you conservatives think."

Your probably right...they were much greater.

...and so it goes.

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Originally Posted by SouthernFried

Interesting how conservatives revere the founders of this country...and leftists despise them.

"Oh...we don't despise them, but they weren't as great as you conservatives think."

Your probably right...they were much greater.

...and so it goes.

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What's wrong with criticizing certain aspects of a leader? Are you saying it's better to blindly follow your leaders, never acknowledging their weak points?

Lincoln, for instance, was an awesome President. I still don't agree with his abandonment of habeas corpus.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

What's wrong with criticizing certain aspects of a leader? Are you saying it's better to blindly follow your leaders, never acknowledging their weak points?

Lincoln, for instance, was an awesome President. I still don't agree with his abandonment of habeas corpus.

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It seems so many are completely dismissing our founding fathers, and not just being critical of them.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

It seems so many are completely dismissing our founding fathers, and not just being critical of them.

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Perhaps some do that. I personally revere peope like George Washington, and wish others would read more about his political stances.

I don't hold slavery against the Founding Fathers as much as some people do. I'm sure there's a chance that future generations will look at some of the things that OUR generation does, like the way livestock are caged/fed in meat production, that will abhor them.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

It seems so many are completely dismissing our founding fathers, and not just being critical of them.

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So now you're back to saying people were completely dismissing them? I thought you said you understood the criticism was made in the context of the parameters Galileo set and rejected it as such. Which is it?

Does it make you mad when people laud Lincoln for freeing the slaves, but criticize the losses caused by the civil war he began? Or that Sherman was a great general, but he fucked up burning down Georgia? Nobody's perfect.

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Originally Posted by SouthernFried

Interesting how conservatives revere the founders of this country...and leftists despise them.

"Oh...we don't despise them, but they weren't as great as you conservatives think."

Your probably right...they were much greater.

...and so it goes.

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Interesting that board conservatives are stupid overgeneralizing hypocritical idiots.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

It seems so many are completely dismissing our founding fathers, and not just being critical of them.

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It seems board conservatives demand that others worship those men they worship or they completely dismiss them.

...and so it goes.

This wino wonders how welcome the Holy Card-ish reverence some self-described conservatives wish to bestow, would've been to the founders .

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

Or that Sherman was a great general, but he fucked up burning down Georgia? Nobody's perfect.

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Well, Sherman is far and away my favorite Civil War general. But that might be because I simply hate the South and I secretly hope to be as despised as he is in the South today, especially Atlanta.

But after the Civil War I don't look kindly on his actions of annihilating native americans.

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Originally Posted by spursncowboys

Yeah I should have put Plato instead of Socrates.

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Sorry to keep breaking your balls, but unless you suddenly took up the Classics, I call BS.

Plato didn't write much on the subject for there to be much scholastic consensus on the issue of his opinion of slavery (a few things here and there in the Laws, which are easily his least influential writings) and considering you never took a logic course, I'm guessing you never took a philosophy class, either. All to say I'm almost positive you're referencing Mogrojevo's citation of Aristotle's Politics in a discussion a month or two back, not anything by Plato.

Eh, it's much easier to drop names. If challenged, deny, if that doesn't work, just cut 'n' paste. Ding fries are done.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Eh, it's much easier to drop names. If challenged, deny, if that doesn't work, just cut 'n' paste. Ding fries are done.

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Or an incoherent rant against someone you don't like instead of disagreeing with an actual position. Then when shown to be a moron, blame alcohol.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

Sorry to keep breaking your balls, but unless you suddenly took up the Classics, I call BS.

Plato didn't write much on the subject for there to be much scholastic consensus on the issue of his opinion of slavery (a few things here and there in the Laws, which are easily his least influential writings) and considering you never took a logic course, I'm guessing you never took a philosophy class, either. All to say I'm almost positive you're referencing Mogrojevo's citation of Aristotle's Politics in a discussion a month or two back, not anything by Plato.

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I didn't read Mogrojevo's post or just don't remember if I am citing it. I read somewhere that by Plato's death, he had 5 slaves. Also, I thought that everything we have of plato is through socrates' writing. That is why I originally put socrates.

I found it funny that there was a college class called logic. You assumption is wrong however, I took philosophy classes, as part of my degree.