Does this mean that I am a neocon?

I feel very dirty, I had read everything of interest on cnn.com, so I decided to go to foxnews.com for a good laugh and there on the front page was a story that had a headline that I couldn't believe. I read the story and completely agree with the view being given by FOX FREAKIN NEWS. This is the culmination of a disturbing trend where I have found myself, on occasion, agreeing with those on the right on this board, its got me a little scared. Here is the article:

Link to my shame

Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.


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Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, the Morgan Hill Times reported. The boys told the newspaper they complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

The five students -- Daniel Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard -- were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags.

"They said we were starting a fight," Dariano told the newspaper. "We were fuel to the fire."

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

"I just couldn't believe it," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mother, told the newspaper. "I'm an open-minded parent, but it's got to be on both sides. It can't be five kids singled out."

Galli told NBC Bay Area, "They said we could wear it on any other day, but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it."

In a statement released on Wednesday, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.

"In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today," the statement read. "The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions."

Attempts to reach school officials early Thursday were not successful. A secretary told the Morgan Hill Times that Boden and Rodriguez were unavailable for comment on Wednesday.

According to its website, Live Oak High School is a 1,300-student institution in the southern part of Santa Clara County, with most students residing in the nearby cities of Morgan Hill and San Jose.

"The student population reflects the rich ethnic and socioeconomic diversity of the community," the website reads.

More than 100 students were spotted wearing the colors of the Mexican flag -- red, white and green -- as they left school, including some who had the flag painted on their faces or arms, the Morgan Hill times reported.

While bandannas of any color are banned at the school, its dress code policy does not contain references to American flags.

"However, any clothing or decoration which detracts from the learning environment is prohibited," the policy reads. "The school has the right to request that any student dressing inappropriately for school will change into other clothes, be sent home to change, and/or be subject to disciplinary action."

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce told the newspaper.

Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor and a Fox News legal analyst, said the incident appears to a "blatant" violation of the students' First Amendment right to free speech. She noted that inciting violence is an exception to a First Amendment legal defense, but Wiehl said she saw no indications that the students provoked anyone.

"Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a blatant violation of the First Amendment," said Wiehl, adding that uniforms are not required at the public school. "And they're wearing, of all horrific things, the American flag."




BTW, my forword is more tounge-in-cheek than anything, I know I am center-left and that I will, on occasion, find myself agreeing and disagreeing with both sides.

Screw those school administrators.

This is America. There's nothing insensitive about wearing flag-related paraphernalia. (Well... I mean according to the flag code there's some debate, but that's beside the point here lol.)

America is MULTICULTURAL. To suggest that celebrating one culture denigrates another is retarded logic at best. That's like saying because I'm not religious, I'm offending Christians.

Just retarded. As is that Freshman who said that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" they can celebrate. GMAFB.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Screw those school administrators.

This is America. There's nothing insensitive about wearing flag-related paraphernalia. (Well... I mean according to the flag code there's some debate, but that's beside the point here lol.)

America is MULTICULTURAL. To suggest that celebrating one culture denigrates another is retarded logic at best. That's like saying because I'm not religious, I'm offending Christians.

Just retarded. As is that Freshman who said that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" they can celebrate. GMAFB.

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I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

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:lmao

I think that all students should have to speak with their best Irish accent, just in case any Irish people get offended by normal accents.

I knew a few dumbass liberal kids back in high school... "America is evil! We go to war! We bomb children!"

If you hate America so much, GTFO.

I'm totally cool with disliking certain laws, regulations and various other aspects of the US. Vigorous debate is healthy. But if you don't like our country... why don't you leave? Feel free.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

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Let me just start by saying that I think your position is beyond reproach philosophically.

That said, principals are in the business of maintaining order more than they are in engendering free speech. I couldn't wear my Misfits shirt in PE at military school because my coach was a consecrated evangelical literalist who assumed I was celebrating death by lifting weights in a black shirt with a glow-in-the-dark skull on it. Was he wrong to censor me? Hell yes. Did it ultimately matter? Not really. The shirt inflamed insecurities/aggressions within him, and it was probably for the best I didn't push him to some greater act of censure... say, laps.

By the same token, wearing an US flag on 5 de Mayo, while perfectly acceptable in and of itself, could very easily be taken as a "fuck you" to Latinos. The principal was, thus, probably trying to avert a mess in his/her school by ordering the removal of an (contextually) inflammatory symbol.

I guess I'm saying that on paper, this was a stupid decision on the principal's part, but in context, it was no different than disallowing kids from wearing Misfits shirts (or gang-related sports jerseys). Peacekeeping.

Political Correctness at its finest.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

Let me just start by saying that I think your position is beyond reproach philosophically.

That said, principals are in the business of maintaining order more than they are in engendering free speech. I couldn't wear my Misfits shirt in PE at military school because my coach was a consecrated evangelical literalist who assumed I was celebrating death by lifting weights in a black shirt with a glow-in-the-dark skull on it. Was he wrong to censor me? Hell yes. Did it ultimately matter? Not really. The shirt inflamed insecurities/aggressions within him, and it was probably for the best I didn't push him to some greater act of censure... say, laps.

By the same token, wearing an US flag on 5 de Mayo, while perfectly acceptable in and of itself, could very easily be taken as a "fuck you" to Latinos. The principal was, thus, probably trying to avert a mess in his/her school by ordering the removal of an (contextually) inflammatory symbol.

I guess I'm saying that on paper, this was a stupid decision on the principal's part, but in context, it was no different than disallowing kids from wearing Misfits shirts (or gang-related sports jerseys). Peacekeeping.

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Ok so disallow those showing pride in their nation in order to make comfortable those who are showing pride in not their nation. How about they get over themselves and show pride in whatever they want, while they allow others to show pride in what they want. Does the pricipal send someone home on every other day if they are displaying the colors of a different country?

If the kids started being douchebags about it, yelling things like "These colors don't run" or "If you like mexico so much GTFO" I would understand punishing those kids FOR THAT. Nothing in the story indicates this, in fact the part where it says they would be sent home, though it wouldn't be counted as a suspension seems to imply (at least to me) that their sole indiscretion was wearing a shirt with a flag on it.

One also has to ask, was the SCHOOL flying the flag, or did they fly the mexican flag that day.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

If the kids started being douchebags about it, yelling things like "These colors don't run" or "If you like mexico so much GTFO" I would understand punishing those kids FOR THAT. Nothing in the story indicates this, in fact the part where it says they would be sent home, though it wouldn't be counted as a suspension seems to imply (at least to me) that their sole indiscretion was wearing a shirt with a flag on it.

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I guess I would argue that the censorship was effected in order for no disturbance of the kind to even happen.

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

It wearing a t-shirt with an American flag is actually something that can threaten the peace in a school, it's pretty obvious there's a problem and where the problem is - not in those who are wearing the T-shirts, certainly.

I prefer to believe the school director just screwed up for no reason.

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Originally Posted by mogrovejo

I prefer to believe the school director just screwed up for no reason.

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That would certainly fit in with your modus operandi.

LMFAO @ can't wear a USA shirt on Cinco de Mayo!!!!!!!!!

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I guess I would argue that the censorship was effected in order for no disturbance of the kind to even happen.

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

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As to the first part, if this is the case, then the principal should send home those who are disrupting the every day business of an American school. Not the ones who are carrying on with regular life.

As far as the second part, it will probably (NOW) be inflammatory if anyone is wearing any OTHER flag on any other day. So I guess they will have to be sent home.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

As to the first part, if this is the case, then the principal should send home those who are disrupting the every day business of an American school. Not the ones who are carrying on with regular life.

As far as the second part, it will probably (NOW) be inflammatory if anyone is wearing any OTHER flag on any other day. So I guess they will have to be sent home.

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Fine by me... I'm not defending the hypocrisy or what will come out of it, just saying there's a pragmatic reason it went down the way it did.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

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In the interests of fairness then, one would think that all displays of nationality should be banned in the interest of fairness. Of course, then you'd have people mad they couldn't display the Mexican flag on cinco de mayo.

I'm of the opinion that children should wear what they want, as long as it's not obviously designed to be inflammatory.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I'm of the opinion that children should wear what they want, as long as it's not obviously designed to be inflammatory.

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I am, too, which is why I said I philosophically agree. At the same time, I can sympathize with a principal who doesn't want any shit started in loco parentis on a real, practical level.

Do problems upon problems fall out of the reaction? Absolutely. Was it a short-sighted, reactionary policy? Absolutely. Are school policies ever otherwise? Not in my experience. Were it up to principals, kids would all wear uniforms.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

Fine by me... I'm not defending the hypocrisy or what will come out of it, just saying there's a pragmatic reason it went down the way it did.

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fair enough, and just to be clear, I am not part of the GTFO crowd. I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

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Probably, I doubt they want car bombs going off at lunch!

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Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

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Mexican-American students? National pride?
1) High schools students are the most idiotic students in the world, confusing the country of their birth with the country of their ancestry. Actually, that's most people that use hyphenated "nationalities."
2) Cinco de Mayo is not even Mexico's Independence Day, which is way more important to people in Mexico.
3) Are these kids aware that the Cinco de Mayo victory, while awesome, wasn't really a victory in the long run?
4) Only kids wearing French flags would be instigating conflict with their dress, not the American flag kids. The latter are just trying to be cool and make a statement.

to answer the OP: yes, it does.

Does anyone really think that five friends wearing over-the-top American flag clothing (bandanas?!) on Cinco de Mayo was an accident or coincidence?

There's nothing wrong with there clothing in and of itself. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that the intent was not to be provocative. And high school students do not have first amendment rights to wear clothing that creates distraction or could lead to hostility.

I think the intent was pretty clear. The only thing the school did wrong was to give them the attention they wanted.

But I'd expect them to do the same thing if ten white buddies were gathering together wearing solid white on MLK Day. Nothing wrong with wearing white. But let's be real.

Seems to me that these kids were out to get a rise from people. :wakeup

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Originally Posted by alchemist

Seems to me that these kids were out to get a rise from people. :wakeup

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Yeah, they are proud to been americans. Freaken troublemakers

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

Probably, I doubt they want car bombs going off at lunch!



Mexican-American students? National pride?
1) High schools students are the most idiotic students in the world, confusing the country of their birth with the country of their ancestry. Actually, that's most people that use hyphenated "nationalities."
2) Cinco de Mayo is not even Mexico's Independence Day, which is way more important to people in Mexico.
3) Are these kids aware that the Cinco de Mayo victory, while awesome, wasn't really a victory in the long run?
4) Only kids wearing French flags would be instigating conflict with their dress, not the American flag kids. The latter are just trying to be cool and make a statement.

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Ok, I found the first part hilarious.
Secondly, the rest of it is spot on. I would even amend number 4 to say that while I believe these 5 were just trying to be cool high school kids, maybe they weren't. What are the odds that in an American HS that 5 out of 1300 students would wear a shirt that has the Flag on it on any given day. I would say pretty high. The ONLY reason that I don't think this is a coincedence is the fact that they were wearing bandanas too. Either way, who cares.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

fair enough, and just to be clear, I am not part of the GTFO crowd. I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

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I don't know... I think you were closer to it when you likened the 5 de Mayo to St. Patty's Day -- it isn't about pledging allegiance to a country (as Stringer pointed out, El Dia De Independencia on Sept 16 is more of a Mexican holiday that the Cinco -- which I don't even remember celebrating when I lived in MX) as much as celebrating your ethnic heritage.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

What are the odds that in an American HS that 5 out of 1300 students would wear a shirt that has the Flag on it on any given day. I would say pretty high.

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Five friends at the same table?

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

to answer the OP: yes, it does.

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Ok, thanks for clarifying. LOL

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Originally Posted by Drachen

The ONLY reason that I don't think this is a coincedence is the fact that they were wearing bandanas too. Either way, who cares.

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You may care if you were hispanic and people were obviously fucking with you (ie, not a coincidence), in the way the Irish might care if people came to school wearing Union Jacks, or blacks would care if people came to class wearing black-face or dixie flags on MLK day. Again... it shouldn't be a big deal, but we're talking about teenagers.

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

Yeah, they are proud to been americans. Freaken troublemakers

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right.......:rolleyes

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

Five friends at the same table?

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I forgot about the "at the same table" part. Like I said, I thought it was intentional, but if that's all they did, then they feel like they stayed true to whatever values and no harm no foul. At the same time, I bet it was intentional that a large portion of the school wore stuff representing Mexico that day, do they get kicked out of school?

Where are the celebrations/observances of Irish independence day/Bloody Sunday. How about the day of mourning for the initiation of the Trail of Tears? Battle of Waterloo?

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

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I think the Principle should've left them in school to be honest, couple verbal fights won't hurt too much.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I am, too, which is why I said I philosophically agree. At the same time, I can sympathize with a principal who doesn't want any shit started in loco parentis on a real, practical level.

Do problems upon problems fall out of the reaction? Absolutely. Was it a short-sighted, reactionary policy? Absolutely. Are school policies ever otherwise? Not in my experience. Were it up to principals, kids would all wear uniforms.

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I think the right thing to do in this situation would have been to address it ahead of time with a policy that stated certain patriotic items would be inappropriate to wear.

Failing that, I feel the principal should have waited to see if negatIvity occurred around the students.

I understand the principle behind the CYA decision. I'd like to think I would have ruled otherwise though.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I knew a few dumbass liberal kids back in high school... "America is evil! We go to war! We bomb children!"

If you hate America so much, GTFO.

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I don't agree with your statement, but I do have to ask if America has bombed children, like has happened before..don't you consider that evil? What is the cost of criticism? How much does it take? I'm just asking rhetorical questions here I am sincerely wondering.

I think it was Robert Wuhl who said it best "Everyone loves their country in a different way. Some people it's a 'Love it or leave it' type of thing, and for those of us who have been married 20 plus years it's more of a 'Sure she pisses me off at times, what the fuck am I gonna do you know?'".

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

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But it's the principal's job to prevent that riot from occurring if he thinks it's a possibility.

I'd lean towards this being an overreaction, but I'm not going to feel sorry about a few attitudinal teens getting the day off from school.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

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I was at a Allen Americans game (hockey) a few weeks back. There was this row of mexicans, all ages from around 4-50. They had Dodgers, Yankees, Allen and Cowboy shirts on. They were singing American songs LOUD and somewhat clear from Taylor Swift to Michael Jackson to Neil Freaken Diamond. They cheered for their favorite hockey team, the Americans but when they did the national anthem before the game they refused to take off their hats, stand and all of them put their heads down until the song was over.

Durning the game I started talking to a few of them. They live in Allen Texas and said they were americans but consider themselves more mexicans and will only respect that anthem. I find that odd.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

You may care if you were hispanic and people were obviously fucking with you (ie, not a coincidence), in the way the Irish might care if people came to school wearing Union Jacks, or blacks would care if people came to class wearing black-face or dixie flags on MLK day. Again... it shouldn't be a big deal, but we're talking about teenagers.

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Your analogies don't hold up. This would be the same as if at a school in germany on Irish independence day, someone came to school wearing a German Shirt. Or if someone came to school in Mexico on MLK day wearing a Mariano Abarca T-shirt.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

At the same time, I bet it was intentional that a large portion of the school wore stuff representing Mexico that day, do they get kicked out of school?

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There is a difference. Wearing Mexican clothes on Cinco de Mayo is not openly confrontational, unless you're talking about a student wearing a "Mexico > USA" shirt (or something similar), in which case my guess is he would have been asked to change as well.

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

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Where are the celebrations/observances of Irish independence day/Bloody Sunday. How about the day of mourning for the initiation of the Trail of Tears? Battle of Waterloo?

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I'm sure kids would be allowed to wear related clothing on those anniversaries.

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Originally Posted by alchemist

right.......:rolleyes

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I'm sorry buddy. There is nothing wrong with kids wearing USA t's on cinco de mayo. Nothing wrong with people wearing USA t's on St Pattys day. Don't forget, this is america.

How bout the Spews people send the Los Sun fans home when they show up in those T's in their building. Freaken troublemakers!

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

Does anyone really think that five friends wearing over-the-top American flag clothing (bandanas?!) on Cinco de Mayo was an accident or coincidence?

There's nothing wrong with there clothing in and of itself. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that the intent was not to be provocative. And high school students do not have first amendment rights to wear clothing that creates distraction or could lead to hostility.

I think the intent was pretty clear. The only thing the school did wrong was to give them the attention they wanted.

But I'd expect them to do the same thing if ten white buddies were gathering together wearing solid white on MLK Day. Nothing wrong with wearing white. But let's be real.

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Huh? WTF? Especially your comment about wearing white on MLK Day.

This reminds me of the Dallas man that thought the term "black hole" was racist. GMAFB.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Your analogies don't hold up. This would be the same as if at a school in germany on Irish independence day, someone came to school wearing a German Shirt. Or if someone came to school in Mexico on MLK day wearing a Mariano Abarca T-shirt.

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C'mon now... I think if you'd try, you'd see they do hold up. Like it or not, Chicanos are minorities in this country, the same way the Irish were once considered in England, and not unlike Blacks were/are in this country. When the dominant culture fucks with you on the basis of your ethnicity, it brings up old resentments.

As a white dude, it may not be your intention to stir up these irrational feelings (and you probably won't even be aware of it when you do) but that doesn't change the way some people might feel like you're fucking with them.

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

I don't agree with your statement, but I do have to ask if America has bombed children, like has happened before..don't you consider that evil? What is the cost of criticism? How much does it take? I'm just asking rhetorical questions here I am sincerely wondering.

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I have no problem with rhetoric. I just detest those that take actions which may be reprehensible, and then use it to paint a wide group. People who say that soldiers love killing brown people because of a few stupid soldiers. People who say that America is evil, without thinking of all the good we do, etc etc.

I personally think the usage of nukes during WWII was unjustified and unethical due to the high amount of civilian casualities it caused. However, I don't think deciding to do so was "evil". There were valid reasons pro and con on that decision. I don't think the Founding Fathers were racist because they kept slaves... it was a totally different mindset back then, and I judge them according to the morals at the time.

There are only a few people in history that were nearly all evil... Caligula, Hitler, and a few others.

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

I think it was Robert Wuhl who said it best "Everyone loves their country in a different way. Some people it's a 'Love it or leave it' type of thing, and for those of us who have been married 20 plus years it's more of a 'Sure she pisses me off at times, what the fuck am I gonna do you know?'".

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That's why I said I'm fine with people disliking aspects and working to change those. Totally cool. I just hate people who say that our country is evil, government is evil, yadda yadda yadda. If you feel that strongly about such a broad portion of the country, one that is essentially "unfixable", then either work to change it or leave.

I found that many of the peope with these simplistic thoughts also were not likely to try fixing it. But that's just my personal experience.

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

There is a difference. Wearing Mexican clothes on Cinco de Mayo is not openly confrontational, unless you're talking about a student wearing a "Mexico > USA" shirt (or something similar), in which case my guess is he would have been asked to change as well.

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.



I'm sure kids would be allowed to wear related clothing on those anniversaries.

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Honestly for me I am not even about making this a free speech thing, but I guess that is what it boils down to. You say that wearing Mexican clothes on the anniversary of the battle of puebla against the french isn't confrontational, but it obviously is to (at least) these 5. PC goes both ways man (but we all know it doesn't). As far as the kids wearing related clothing on the anniversaries those days that I mentioned, I am sure they would be allowed to do so. My question is, will all mexican themed clothing, and american themed clothing be banned on those days?

They have been given the blessing by the school (either implicit or explicit) to overtly celebrate a holiday from another country. Fine, I think this is a little odd, but whatever, I don't have to agree with everything everyone does. But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

Durning the game I started talking to a few of them. They live in Allen Texas and said they were americans but consider themselves more mexicans and will only respect that anthem. I find that odd.

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Eh... I picture it this way. If you lived in France for ten years or so, and really liked the country, you might get into their sports/politics/etc, yet still be proud of your own anthem.

I find many Mexicans are proud of their heritage/culture, at least as much as Americans if not moreso, and they're not quick to relinquish that identity.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I have no problem with rhetoric. I just detest those that take actions which may be reprehensible, and then use it to paint a wide group. People who say that soldiers love killing brown people because of a few stupid soldiers. People who say that America is evil, without thinking of all the good we do, etc etc.

I personally think the usage of nukes during WWII was unjustified and unethical due to the high amount of civilian casualities it caused. However, I don't think deciding to do so was "evil". There were valid reasons pro and con on that decision. I don't think the Founding Fathers were racist because they kept slaves... it was a totally different mindset back then, and I judge them according to the morals at the time.

There are only a few people in history that were nearly all evil... Caligula, Hitler, and a few others.



That's why I said I'm fine with people disliking aspects and working to change those. Totally cool. I just hate people who say that our country is evil, government is evil, yadda yadda yadda. If you feel that strongly about such a broad portion of the country, one that is essentially "unfixable", then either work to change it or leave.

I found that many of the peope with these simplistic thoughts also were not likely to try fixing it. But that's just my personal experience.

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I think we just have to agree to disagree. Which I don't agree with either. But I digress, the reason I have no "pride" in America is that we use rhetoric like "Greatest nation on Earth" and other bullshit and yet we say it's fine if we fuck up.

Don't get me wrong I understand fuck ups, but sometimes I feel like people don't even make an effort to fix these fuck ups. Like Iraq, like it's something that can simply be brushed off or put on the back burner. That's the reason I have high criticism of the US. Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

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The only thing this encroached upon was the principal's nerves. High-school kids have no real freedoms (or at least we didn't when I was a kid). To extrapolate from a HS situation to broader life seems a bit hyperbolic.

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

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How is that being openly confrontational?

Were they saying something like "America is superior"? What's wrong with showing pride in YOUR country, on the same day some Mexicans show pride in Mexico?

As well, just because students have somewhat limited First Amendment rights while in school, I do not think that justifies any and all reductions of that right.

"Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't."

"reasons unknown"? GMAFB America does whatever profits corps and capitalists.

All the American fuckups are driven by greed.

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

C'mon now... I think if you'd try, you'd see they do hold up. Like it or not, Chicanos are minorities in this country, the same way the Irish were once considered in England, and not unlike Blacks were/are in this country. When the dominant culture fucks with you on the basis of your ethnicity, it brings up old resentments.

As a white dude, it may not be your intention to stir up these irrational feelings (and you probably won't even be aware of it when you do) but that doesn't change the way some people might feel like you're fucking with them.

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Right they are still minorities, and yet (after admittedly hard fights), they have the right to do things such as celebrate a holiday commemorating the a battle between two other countries.

Try this analogy: this is basically similar to the fact that many minorities prefer the hyphenation of their ancestry mexican-american, african-american, etc. and they won't stop until those who are comfortable just being americans, start calling themselves European-Americans.

How about there finally is starting to be some progress, you do your thing, let us do our thing and quit making enemies out of each other.

Edit: I felt uncomfortable typing that last sentence because I know that everything isn't perfect. I guess my point is that neither side should be going overboard. If progress is made in one area, the quickest way to retract that progress is to overreach.

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Which I don't agree with either. But I digress, the reason I have no "pride" in America is that we use rhetoric like "Greatest nation on Earth" and other bullshit and yet we say it's fine if we fuck up.

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I can understand being critical of this. I am not saying that America is the greatest nation on Earth... that's taking it to its opposite extreme. I'm saying extremes on either side are silly/juvenile.

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

Don't get me wrong I understand fuck ups, but sometimes I feel like people don't even make an effort to fix these fuck ups. Like Iraq, like it's something that can simply be brushed off or put on the back burner. That's the reason I have high criticism of the US. Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't.

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Do you really think the whole country feels that way though? I doubt it.

America does bad things. So do other countries. There are some countries I feel we are more moral than, and some that we are probably less moral than. The point of being a good citizen is to give voice to what you think is right, not to shout empty jingoisms.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

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Sure. It's a political statement, which I feel should be protected by the First Amendment.

I feel that anything that is not blatantly offensive (ie obvious stuff like swear words, violent images, etc) should be allowed. Again, I am very libertarian on First Amendment issues. :D

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

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Still completely different, the correct analogy would be if this were in a russian school and on July 4th, the russian school kids wore shirts with the soviet flag. What do they care, it celebrates something that happened between two entirely different countries.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Eh... I picture it this way. If you lived in France for ten years or so, and really liked the country, you might get into their sports/politics/etc, yet still be proud of your own anthem.

I find many Mexicans are proud of their heritage/culture, at least as much as Americans if not moreso, and they're not quick to relinquish that identity.

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Honestly, I just found it odd. They were into so many things american (clothes,songs,sports) but couldn't even take their hats off to show some sort of respect. Instead they put their heads down as if they were ashamed. I have no clue what the protocol is in this case but when a canadain hockey team comes to play the Stars, I stand. When I was at a world cup qualifer at the alamo dome a few years back, I stood for the mexico and domician republican anthem. Like I said, I found it odd.

I'm thinking now I am a really great guy that doesn't have a racist bone in my body unlike some other folks in here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Right they are still minorities, and yet (after admittedly hard fights), they have the right to do things such as celebrate a holiday commemorating the a battle between two other countries.

Try this analogy: this is basically similar to the fact that many minorities prefer the hyphenation of their ancestry mexican-american, african-american, etc. and they won't stop until those who are comfortable just being americans, start calling themselves European-Americans.

How about there finally is starting to be some progress, you do your thing, let us do our thing and quit making enemies out of eachother.

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It makes sense, and it sounds great, but it's harder to do in practice.

Like I said, the Cinco is historically irrelevant. When Chicanos celebrate it, it is as a celebration of their heritage, not in remembrance of a pissy little Mexican victory against the French. All people are proud of their roots, but this pride necessarily creates divisions of us-vs-them. We can try to have it your way and the way I'm describing (that's, I think, what it means to be an American), but it's imperfect.

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

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Is this an analogy? CCCP Shirts-> American flag shirts; 5 de Mayo -> 4th of July?

I think most civilized people would be absolutely fine, btw.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Still completely different, the correct analogy would be if this were in a russian school and on July 4th, the russian school kids wore shirts with the soviet flag. What do they care, it celebrates something that happened between two entirely different countries.

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I guess I'm not making myself clear, but I think if you would actually trust my analogy and see what I'm trying to convey, then amplify the feeling because we aren't talking about nationality but race/ethnicity, that you might understand where I'm going.

4th of July is a day where we express our pride in being Americans. If somebody in 1950's Iowa came to school on that day wearing a CCCP shirt, it would clearly be an attempt to piss you off. You may respect their right to wear the shirt, but you would feel disrespected. If we take the same line of thought to race/ethnicity, and accept as a given that Americans have had a rocky road assimilating minorities, somebody wearing what is now a US shirt on your "I'm proud to be brown day" may piss you off. It's sad that it's this way, and it has nothing to do with Chicano's patriotism, but then, wearing a US flag to fuck with somebody's special day isn't terribly patriotic, either. Legal? Sure. Dick? Also.

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Originally Posted by mogrovejo

Is this an analogy? CCCP Shirts-> American flag shirts; 5 de Mayo -> 4th of July?

I think most civilized people would be absolutely fine, btw.

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Thanks for weighing in, as ever.:toast

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

Thanks for weighing in, as ever.:toast

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:lol

Sorry

:lol

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

:lol

Sorry

:lol

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:king

Quote:

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I guess I'm not making myself clear, but I think if you would actually trust my analogy and see what I'm trying to convey, then amplify the feeling because we aren't talking about nationality but race/ethnicity, that you might understand where I'm going.

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Ok, I disagree with you and your analogies, but I will relent. If we are talking about ethincities then the flag should be irrelevant, but I back down here because I guess we won't reach a point of understanding on this.

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive. I understand that I will not understand everything since I don't care about the times I was a "victim" of racism, but this smells of proactively looking for excuses to get pissed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Ok, I disagree with you and your analogies, but I will relent. If we are talking about ethincities then the flag should be irrelevant, but I back down here because I guess we won't reach a point of understanding on this.

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive. I understand that I will not understand everything since I don't care about the times I was a "victim" of racism, but this smells of proactively looking for excuses to get pissed.

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I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive.

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Yeps. If the director had reasons to be concerned then it's pretty obvious that there's a huge problem, at least among some Hispanic students in that school.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

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Ok, great, work for equal rights, I will help, but don't work for UN-equal rights. Once again PC goes both ways. So we either open everything up, or shut everything down.

I think the school missed out on a teachable moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

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The root of racism.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Ok, great, work for equal rights, I will help, but don't work for UN-equal rights. Once again PC goes both ways. So we either open everything up, or shut everything down.

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We're both working it out right now, just like millions of other people. I don't feel victimized as a minority because I'm educated, assimilated, and have earning potential... but I understand why other minorities may not feel that way because they aren't here yet. Shit, some people never get over their anger and carry it to their grave -- their loss. Point is, it's a process. All we can do is be cool and hope people choose to be cool in their due time.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

The root of racism.

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Absolutely so.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

The root of racism.

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I wouldn't go quite that far. It is absolutely understandable that a race scorned might have trust issues with the race that scorned them, but progress, not regression needs to be made. Don't get mad at some people doing the EXACT same thing you are. If that race scorned continues looking for proof of that scorn, they will find it even where there is none.

Ok, nevermind, I reread my post and I guess that pretty much makes it the root of racism. LOL

It seems fairly obvious that these kids were trying to get a rise out of people, especially considering the current political climate w/ regards to Mexican-American policies. The fact that these kids not only chose to wear American flags in some kind've feeble attempt to show "solidarity", but that they ALSO wore similar bandannas, which I'm sure they knew weren't allowed at school, is the very telling part of this story.

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

I have no problem w/ what the principal did, given the students' initial disregard for the school dress code policy.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Huh? WTF? Especially your comment about wearing white on MLK Day.

This reminds me of the Dallas man that thought the term "black hole" was racist. GMAFB.

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You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be suspicious?

On a lighter note, I have to ask, does Fox News always have polls like this

"You Decide : Ban the American Flag - In America?"

I love it.
Do most of their polls end up 99%-1%??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by admiralsnackbar

If we take the same line of thought to race/ethnicity, and accept as a given that Americans have had a rocky road assimilating minorities, somebody wearing what is now a US shirt on your "I'm proud to be brown day" may piss you off. It's sad that it's this way, and it has nothing to do with Chicano's patriotism, but then, wearing a US flag to fuck with somebody's special day isn't terribly patriotic, either. Legal? Sure. Dick? Also.

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Maybe I missed something, but how is wearing a US flag shirt on Cinco de Mayo ipso facto insulting someone?

It's not like the kids were saying "America is better" or anything similar.

And it's not very similar to the CCCP shirt example, because, ya know, we're not at war with Mexico.


You can't protect people from being offended, IMHO. People who take umbrage to someone wearing an American flag motif in school, in America, is just silly. Assuming that it was worn offensively is jumping to conclusions that don't seem supported by the facts. Per the article:

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The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, one of their parents told FoxNews.com. The boys complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

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Does this sound like the actions of children who were out to prove the superiority of their culture/nation/heritage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fpoonsie

It seems fairly obvious that these kids were trying to get a rise out of people, especially considering the current political climate w/ regards to Mexican-American policies. The fact that these kids not only chose to wear American flags in some kind've feeble attempt to show "solidarity", but that they ALSO wore similar bandannas, which I'm sure they knew weren't allowed at school, is the very telling part of this story.

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

I have no problem w/ what the principal did, given the students' initial disregard for the school dress code policy.

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I am not clueless to what they were trying to do, I am saying that there is a problem when wearing an american flag in the USA is offensive. These kids were obviously "offended" by the upcoming display of the Mexican flag in the USA and therefore chose that offensive symbol to wear to school.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Honestly for me I am not even about making this a free speech thing, but I guess that is what it boils down to. You say that wearing Mexican clothes on the anniversary of the battle of puebla against the french isn't confrontational, but it obviously is to (at least) these 5. PC goes both ways man (but we all know it doesn't).

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If they have a problem with it they should address it with the school through other means. Not by picking fights.

Quote:

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As far as the kids wearing related clothing on the anniversaries those days that I mentioned, I am sure they would be allowed to do so. My question is, will all mexican themed clothing, and american themed clothing be banned on those days?

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I don't think there are many kids or teachers in the public school system who would make the connection anyway. And that's not to knock them. I wouldn't have either as a high schooler.

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They have been given the blessing by the school (either implicit or explicit) to overtly celebrate a holiday from another country. Fine, I think this is a little odd, but whatever, I don't have to agree with everything everyone does. But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

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Again, you're giving the kids a little too much credit for what they were doing. They weren't celebrating their heritage. They were flaunting it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be suspicious?

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Not really.

Quote:

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I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

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Let's say this is the case... which doesn't seem at all proven yet, to me.

Should we prevent children from making political statements in school?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

On a lighter note, I have to ask, does Fox News always have polls like this

"You Decide : Ban the American Flag - In America?"

I love it.
Do most of their polls end up 99%-1%??

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:lol GTFO here. Is there REALLY a poll saying that?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

I am not clueless to what they were trying to do, I am saying that there is a problem when wearing an american flag in the USA is offensive. These kids were obviously "offended" by the upcoming display of the Mexican flag in the USA and therefore chose that offensive symbol to wear to school.

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I guess what I'm saying is that kids have felt "dissed" for far less...and violence has broken out as a result. The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive (again, given the current political climate) was necessary.

Admittedly, I wouldn't have had much of a problem if he had simply asked them to remove their bandannas and let them carry on. At the same time, I wouldn't have felt TOO badly for them had they got beaten up by some put-off Mexicans later in the day.

They knew what they were doing.

Sent home for wearing American flags. God our country has gone to shit.

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Originally Posted by EricB

Sent home for wearing American flags. God our country has gone to shit.

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Being purposely obtuse doesn't really help your..."argument" (?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fpoonsie

:lol GTFO here. Is there REALLY a poll saying that?!



I guess what I'm saying is that kids have felt "dissed" for far less...and violence has broken out as a result. The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive (again, given the current political climate) was necessary.

Admittedly, I wouldn't have had much of a problem if he had simply asked them to remove their bandannas and let them carry on. At the same time, I wouldn't have felt TOO badly for them had they got beaten up by some put-off Mexicans later in the day.

They knew what they were doing.

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Fair enough, The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive was necessary. Why, then, was the girl who had a mexican flag painted on her chest not asked to wash it off? Why did he not ask all students to put away their mexican flags in addition to what he asked of those students?

Also, I disagree with LNGRrr (sp?), I think that these kids were trying to be rabble rousers, but if kids at an american school can wear mexican flags, then kids at an american school can wear american flags. If there is anyone who is offended by the actions of those 5 then THOSE people need to be dealt with.

Also, yes, that poll is right under the story. Pure gold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Why, then, was the girl who had a mexican flag painted on her chest not asked to wash it off? Why did he not ask all students to put away their mexican flags in addition to what he asked of those?

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To be fair, the article mentions that some were asked this.

Quote:

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Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Fair enough, The principal felt that a preemptive strike on anything deemed offensive was necessary. Why, then, was the girl who had a mexican flag painted on her chest not asked to wash it off? Why did he not ask all students to put away their mexican flags in addition to what he asked of those students?

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I actually wondered about the face paint. Not so much as it pertains to upsetting people, but if it fell under the same dress code violations as the bandannas.

In the grand scheme of things, you're right. In the end, it's about free speech. Each side should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit. However, as has already been pointed out, high school students aren't provided the same "liberties" as those in the real world. And if the principal thought that, if only for the day , damage control to prevent a possible uproar was necessary, I can't really fault him for that. Were he to prohibit such "expressions" throughout the remainder of the school year, then there would certainly be cause for concern.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

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Also, a couple people have mentioned that the boys were "sent home." But, if I'm reading this correctly, the parents took the boys home after they refused to flip their shirts.

The fact that the article later states that none of the "other [Mexican] students were sent home" seems a bit contradictory.

Good catch LnGrrrR.

Fpoonsie, they do have limited freedoms as highschool students, but they should at least be equal to one another.

Whoops. I just re-read it. "Either flip their shirts, or be sent home."

Huh. A bit extreme, I'll admit, but still.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fpoonsie

Whoops. I just re-read it. "Either flip their shirts, or be sent home."

Huh. A bit extreme, I'll admit, but still.

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would have been great if they were tommy hilfiger shirts and the kids flipped them to reveal a flag on the tag. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

would have been great if they were tommy hilfiger shirts and the kids flipped them to reveal a flag on the tag. LOL

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:rollin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Not really.

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Well, fair enough I guess. But I don't think a lot of guys are rocking solid white T's in high school these days, much less coordinating them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be suspicious?

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It has honestly never crossed my mind to pay attention to what people are wearing on MLK day as I am usually at work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I am usually at work.

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Waiting for Dumper of all Chumps to chime in

Not to incite anything, but wouldn't there be plenty of African-Americans wearing plain white t-shirts on MLK day anyways?

Also, I find the whole Cinco de Mayo reverence here in the U.S. funny because it isn't widely celebrated outside of Puebla. Or, at least that's my understanding and observation when I've been in Mexico on the 5th of Mayo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

It has honestly never crossed my mind to pay attention to what people are wearing on MLK day as I am usually at work.

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:rolleyes

So was the principal. That's whose decision we're discussing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Gemini Method

Not to incite anything, but wouldn't there be plenty of African-Americans wearing plain white t-shirts on MLK day anyways?

Also, I find the whole Cinco de Mayo reverence here in the U.S. funny because it isn't widely celebrated outside of Puebla. Or, at least that's my understanding and observation when I've been in Mexico on the 5th of Mayo.

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I just never realized that I'm being racist when I wear my white dress shirts. I better start rockin the Johnny Cash look before I get labeled.

So, is that band Plain White T's racist? Does the black band member know what kind of band he's in?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I just never realized that I'm being racist when I wear my white dress shirts. I better start rockin the Johnny Cash look before I get labeled.

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I'm not sure if I was inferring that you were racist. I just was trying to make a slight joke about the plain white t-shirt wearing that normally goes on for (at least around my area) the African-American youth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I just never realized that I'm being racist when I wear my white dress shirts. I better start rockin the Johnny Cash look before I get labeled.

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:lmao

You're hopeless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Gemini Method

I'm not sure if I was inferring that you were racist. I just was trying to make a slight joke about the plain white t-shirt wearing that normally goes on for (at least around my area) the African-American youth.

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I was just joking. I think the whole notion of white shirts being racist is extremely silly.

It's not the shirts that are racist in that scenario. But I'm not going to hold your hand and walk you through the analogy.

White hoods are a different story. Those are never a good look.

I was told if you wear just a white t'shirt means you are a wife beater.

Can you ever imagine a mexican kid on the 4th of July being sent home for wearing a t'shirt that had a mexican flag on it? Holy fuck!!! You would have a fucking riot on your hands. Chants of RACIST RACIST RACIST would be heard throughout the land by far left freaks like Obama.