US goverment can kill you without a trial

This is just wrong. I have been worried about the steady drumbeat of rights being set aside in the name of the war on "terror", but this is, for me, a step too far.

You simply do not allow governments to kill people without trials.

There may be a thread on this already, but I heard about this on NPR yesterday during a discussion.

Muslim cleric Aulaqi is 1st U.S. citizen on list of those CIA is allowed to kill

A Muslim cleric tied to the attempted bombing of a Detroit-bound airliner has become the first U.S. citizen added to a list of suspected terrorists the CIA is authorized to kill, a U.S. official said Tuesday.

Anwar al-Aulaqi, who resides in Yemen, was previously placed on a target list maintained by the U.S. military's Joint Special Operations Command and has survived at least one strike carried out by Yemeni forces with U.S. assistance against a gathering of suspected al-Qaeda operatives.

Because he is a U.S. citizen, adding Aulaqi to the CIA list required special approval from the White House, officials said. The move means that Aulaqi would be considered a legitimate target not only for a military strike carried out by U.S. and Yemeni forces, but also for lethal CIA operations.

"He's in everybody's sights," said the U.S. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the topic's sensitivity.

CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano said: "This agency conducts its counterterrorism operations in strict accord with the law."

The decision to add Aulaqi to the CIA target list reflects the view among agency analysts that a man previously regarded mainly as a militant preacher has taken on an expanded role in al-Qaeda's Yemen-based offshoot.

"He's recently become an operational figure for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula," said a second U.S. official. "He's working actively to kill Americans, so it's both lawful and sensible to try to stop him." The official stressed that there are "careful procedures our government follows in these kinds of cases, but U.S. citizenship hardly gives you blanket protection overseas to plot the murder of your fellow citizens."

Aulaqi corresponded by e-mail with Maj. Nidal M. Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of killing 12 soldiers and one civilian at Fort Hood, Tex., last year. Aulaqi is not believed to have helped plan the attack, although he praised Hasan in an online posting for carrying it out.

Concern grew about the cleric's role after he was linked to the Nigerian accused of attempting to bomb a U.S. airliner on Christmas Day by detonating an explosive device he had smuggled in his underwear. Aulaqi acknowledged teaching and corresponding with the Nigerian but denied ordering the attack.

The CIA is known to have carried out at least one Predator strike in Yemen. A U.S. citizen, Kamal Derwish, was among six alleged al-Qaeda operatives killed in that 2002 operation but was not the target.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040604121.html

Dude is in Yemen plotting more American deaths. He is not an American, fuck what his visa might say.

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Originally Posted by z0sa

Dude is in Yemen plotting more American deaths. He is not an American, fuck what his visa might say.

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Hey Timothy McVeigh plotted american deaths..and he's as American as they come. It matters not where he lives.

In fact I'm going to assume the position that plotting American deaths is as American as apple pie.

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Originally Posted by Duff McCartney

Hey Timothy McVeigh plotted american deaths..and he's as American as they come. It matters not where he lives.

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But our justice system had him executed for his actions. Neither one of these guys are worth defending their rights, at least, not unless you're getting paid.

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Originally Posted by z0sa

But our justice system had him executed for his actions. Neither one of these guys are worth defending their rights, at least, not unless you're getting paid.

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... so we throw away the rule of law when we want to?

How convenient.

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Originally Posted by z0sa

But our justice system had him executed for his actions. Neither one of these guys are worth defending their rights, at least, not unless you're getting paid.

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I have to believe that our American justice system and our laws can hold up to even the most vile terrorists. It's not about defending their rights, as defending our ability to practice law.

Hey, ever heard of Bonnie and Clyde.......solved the problem then, ought to work
in this day and age.....and Dillinger.

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Originally Posted by z0sa

Dude is in Yemen plotting more American deaths. He is not an American, fuck what his visa might say.

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Yup. :tu

....."defend against all enemies both foreign and domestic".

Somtimes, trials are just a waste of freakin time.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

... so we throw away the rule of law when we want to?

How convenient.

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And if an American were to jump sides during a war and start firing on your own men would you not gun him down without a second thought?

Thats exactly what we did last January, but that motherfucker took two of my friends with him.

Fuck this guy. Shoot him in the head. Let the sand claim his body.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

... so we throw away the rule of law when we want to?

How convenient.

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It's two different situations. One is an unknown random acting on his own against essentially nothing, another is actively working to kill not only his fellow citizens, but citizens and armed combatants of other countries while continually undermining our war effort. There's over ten thousand Americans dead from al-Qaeda's efforts, and this guy is working alongside them to raise it higher.

If Federal officers found out McVeigh was moving to kill/wound hundreds before the OKC bombing, I bet they wouldn't have thought twice about shooting him dead. In the same vein, we can't think of Aulaqi as a nationality anymore but as a cold blooded killer that will only cause more deaths, both American and otherwise, if he isn't stopped.

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Originally Posted by Darkwaters

And if an American were to jump sides during a war and start firing on your own men would you not gun him down without a second thought?

Thats exactly what we did last January, but that motherfucker took two of my friends with him.

Fuck this guy. Shoot him in the head. Let the sand claim his body.

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What was that for if not to prove that the American system works? Look if they want to kill the guy, then they'll kill him regardless of what anyone objects to.

My concern is that it will not show that we can legitimately and with due process take out even the most vile people in the world.

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Originally Posted by Darkwaters

And if an American were to jump sides during a war and start firing on your own men would you not gun him down without a second thought?

Thats exactly what we did last January, but that motherfucker took two of my friends with him.

Fuck this guy. Shoot him in the head. Let the sand claim his body.

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I would indeed frag his ass without batting an eyelash.

BUT

The guy doesn't have a gun in his hand. If he is doing shit, then get some proof and take it to a judge, and start some trial.

If he happens to be at a house with a bunch of asshats who are on the kill list, it sucks to be him, even this would have some implications.

As it stands, do you really want a precedent like this to stand?

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Originally Posted by z0sa

It's two different situations. One is an unknown random acting on his own against essentially nothing, another is actively working to kill not only his fellow citizens, but citizens and armed combatants of other countries while continually undermining our war effort. There's over ten thousand Americans dead from al-Qaeda's efforts, and this guy is working alongside them to raise it higher.

If Federal officers found out McVeigh was moving to kill/wound hundreds before the OKC bombing, I bet they wouldn't have thought twice about shooting him dead. In the same vein, we can't think of Aulaqi as a nationality anymore but as a cold blooded killer that will only cause more deaths, both American and otherwise, if he isn't stopped.

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We arrest people putting ads to kill their spouses and "plotting to kill a fellow citizen" all the time.

We then put them on trial.

I'm not saying I would shed a tear is someone like McVeigh was killed in a shootout with the cops, but you still have to arrest and try someone in a court.

Freedoms like that are what we collectively have said we are dying for to the tune of two centuries now.

Do we then piss on all that sacrifice for a little moral outrage?

Is the rule of law that cheaply given up?

Do you deserve those freedoms?

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

We arrest people putting ads to kill their spouses and "plotting to kill a fellow citizen" all the time.

We then put them on trial.

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I'm not sure how you can compare these situations fairly. One person puts out an ad to kill their spouse, so what? That's not the jurisdiction (at least, usually) of the CIA or even FBI probably.

CIA is dealing with much crazier shit, like Aulaqi running around helping plan and support the next 9/11.

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I'm not saying I would shed a tear is someone like McVeigh was killed in a shootout with the cops, but you still have to arrest and try someone in a court.

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If we capture Aulaqi, like other war criminals, I don't doubt he'd be tried for various crimes though not in a civil court. But, he is a terrorist, is working with an organization with many tens of thousands' blood on their hands, and ultimately is the enemy. The CIA and whoever else absolutely needs authority to end his life, because stopping him is directly saving lives, perhaps many, and it's saving American lives.

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Freedoms like that are what we collectively have said we are dying for to the tune of two centuries now.

Do we then piss on all that sacrifice for a little moral outrage?

Is the rule of law that cheaply given up?

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When in our history has there ever been a time when the Constitution, or "law", protected those who switched to the side opposing Americans in a war effort? Are our soldiers not allowed to gun down a traitor? It's the exact same concept, but we went further to be PC and officially list him as someone who can be killed. That's already doing him too much of a favor...

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Do you deserve those freedoms?

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I think the better question is: why is Aulaqi deserving of those freedoms? He's a clear traitor who will do nothing but killl other Americans, our Allies in the war effort, innocent civilians and perhaps even himself. This isn't a slippery slope, at least, this event won't trigger a slippage, because the man is clearly a cold blooded killer and, perhaps more importantly, the man is clearly the enemy of Americans.

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Originally Posted by z0sa

When in our history has there ever been a time when the Constitution, or "law", protected those who switched to the side opposing Americans in a war effort?

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What country are we at war with again? I missed that part.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

What country are we at war with again? I missed that part.

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Terroasiastan!

http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2012-01-04.asp

Hmmm. I gonna have to see how people reacted here over that American we killed in a drone strike in the middle east last year, a few months back. I think he was an American defector, but I clearly remember people saying "well he's a terrorist" :reading

search function is your friend. there are five or six threads on it in this forum.

btw, you're wrong about Awlaki being a defector.

A ha! So you know what I'm talking about. Plus I said "I think"

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Originally Posted by VLE

A ha! So you know what I'm talking about.

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I've posted on the topic here.

lol trying to stump the band with material from the OP

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Originally Posted by VLE

Plus I said "I think"

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you were mistaken none the less

Trying to stump lol

Do you want a gold star or something to make you feel like you accomplished something :lol geez.

nope. shooting down your weak surmise was enough for me.

How about the part I said I clearly remembered?

what part was that?

now you want a gold star?

:lol:toast

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

nope. shooting down your weak surmise was enough for me.

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that's the part you clearly remember?

excuse me: the part you said you clearly remember