Looks like it is finally happening

A challenge to the current interpretation of the 14th amendment. I do like the idea of this bill, but it will likely be shot down as unconstitutional.

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(CNN) -- A proposed Arizona law would deny birth certificates to children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents.

The bill comes on the heels of Arizona passing the nation's toughest immigration law.

John Kavanagh, a Republican state representative from Arizona who supports the proposed law aimed at so-called "anchor babies," said that the concept does not conflict with the U.S. Constitution.

"If you go back to the original intent of the drafters ... it was never intended to bestow citizenship upon (illegal) aliens," said Kavanagh, who also supported Senate Bill 1070 -- the law that gave Arizona authorities expanded immigration enforcement powers.

Under federal law, children born in the United States are automatically granted citizenship, regardless of their parents' residency status.

Kyrsten Sinema, a Democratic state representative, strongly opposes the bill.

"Unlike (Senate Bill) 1070, it is clear this bill runs immediately afoul of the U.S. Constitution," she said.

"While I understand that folks in Arizona and across the country support S.B. 1070, they do so because we have seen no action from the federal government," said Sinema. "Unfortunately, the so-called 'anchor baby' bill does nothing to solve the real problems we are facing in Arizona."

Arizona Republicans are expected to introduce the legislation this fall.

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Isn't it manifestly unconstitutional?

Non-starter?

When can states pass state laws that override the Constitution?

When can states grant/revoke US citizenship?

Any state that has Sharron Angle as a candidate is one fucked up state.

Meanwhile, McLiar declares himslef the unMaverick and flip flops on every single position he has ever taken in desperation to keep his Senate seat. A principled man. McCain-Feingold anyone? :lol

Good law.

This is wonderful. They won't have US birth certificates. Since they weren't born anywhere else, they won't have any other birth certificates. It's like we get to treat these demon hispanic babies like they aren't even people. How moral.

They just don't like brown people.

-the left

For a long time, illegal immigrants have been rewarded for beating the system. The women cross the border 9 months pregnant to have the child and stay in our country. I'd like to see statistics on what they contribute to the rest of the country or if we simply support them through social problems. Let's get some facts out instead of reducing the arguments to racism.

Also, is the 14th amendment created explicitly to be used by illegal immigrants in the way it has been or was it designed to help blacks during the Reconstruction?

Well I guess that is what they plan to do. They KNOW there will be a constitutional challenge if they pass this law, so perhaps they are trying to create a scenario in which it will have to go to court for challenge. Maybe they feel confident about their chances.

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Originally Posted by balli

This is wonderful. They won't have US birth certificates. Since they weren't born anywhere else, they won't have any other birth certificates. It's like we get to treat these demon hispanic babies like they aren't even people. How moral.

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conservatives don't care about illegal babies..

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

conservatives don't care about illegal babies..

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Removing incentive may stop 9 month pregnant women from making a harrowing journey across the desert to give birth. Additionally, they can retain their Mexican citizenship.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Removing incentive may stop 9 month pregnant women from making a harrowing journey accross the desert to give birth. Additionally, they can retain their Mexican citizenship.

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why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

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I wholeheartedly agree. I just think that "both" is a better option than "one".

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

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:rollin

Then where do meat packing and other industry plants get their cheap workforce from? THOSE illegals are actually putting in work and the industry just gives names/addresses to law enforcement to arrest a few at a time instead of raiding the plants. There's only a limited amount of plants in the whole country, if you screw with one and take out 1/2 their workforce then the whole country suffers.

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Originally Posted by EVAY

Isn't it manifestly unconstitutional?

Non-starter?

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I would say it's not unconstitutional. We've discussed this before idea before. I will probably stay out of this debate rather than arguing the same points again, I'll probably just see how it plays out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by balli

This is wonderful. They won't have US birth certificates. Since they weren't born anywhere else, they won't have any other birth certificates. It's like we get to treat these demon hispanic babies like they aren't even people. How moral.

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Mexico allows US born of Mexican women, citizenship without question. I don't know about other countries. Remember, they aren't all Mexican.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

why don't we reduce the incentive for anyone to come over? Let's start jailing people who hire the illegals! I'm serious... COnservatives want to punish the people coming over while ignoring the businesses who hire them.. if your serious about solving the illegal immigration problem it probably would be a good idea to take the incentive away.. A novel concept I know

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That has been my primary argument all along. If you deny them the ability to find work, deny them most social services, they will go home on their own accord.

So conservatives are hoping for an activist judge to make new law.

It's unconstitutional. As WC well knows, this specific issue was discussed by the very same Congress that passed the bill in question. The idea of birth to illegal immigrants was brought up, and whether or not to disallow these children. Since it obviously wasn't included in the bill, those voting on it agreed that children of illegal immigrants should be allowed citizenship.

It's going to take a Constitutional Amendment to change it.

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

Also, is the 14th amendment created explicitly to be used by illegal immigrants in the way it has been or was it designed to help blacks during the Reconstruction?

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I did the research in another thread, but that instance was brought up way back when they were debating the 14th Amendment. Of course, they used "gypsies" back then instead of hispanics, but the specifics of the situation were the same.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

It's unconstitutional. As WC well knows, this specific issue was discussed by the very same Congress that passed the bill in question. The idea of birth to illegal immigrants was brought up, and whether or not to disallow these children. Since it obviously wasn't included in the bill, those voting on it agreed that children of illegal immigrants should be allowed citizenship.

It's going to take a Constitutional Amendment to change it.

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Well WC is stict constructionist who doesn't like activist judges so short of an amendment his side is f*cked.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So conservatives are hoping for an activist judge to make new law.

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Pretty much. This is inherently unconstitutional, I cannot see the SC ruling otherwise.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I did the research in another thread, but that instance was brought up way back when they were debating the 14th Amendment. Of course, they used "gypsies" back then instead of hispanics, but the specifics of the situation were the same.

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Cool, I do no research which is why I ask. :p:

I still fail to see why people get all up in arms about it being "unconstitutional" other than the fact that its a state trying to go above the federal guidelines. Why not discuss changing the amendement itself? The founders knew that changes would have to be made as the country matured. They probably did envision a circumstance such as the pursuit of civil rights for blacks and incoming immigrant children, but to have the system taken advantage like this was not something I believe they'd agree with. What is wrong with replacing an outdated amendment with a new amendment to stop something that's obviously cost us more than its helped?

Has it cost more?

How much?

Why do some people only post questions?

Because the lack of answers speaks volumes.

People like you can't handle it and get all pissy and start complaining.

It is as predictable as it is fun to watch.

No question.

Do you know the answer to your own question?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Do you know the answer to your own question?

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No.

That's why I asked.

Do you know the answer?

Nope.

How about we secure the border so 9 month pregnant women can't come on over to have their child here?

I know, novel idea!

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Why do some people only post questions?

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They are generally insecure. They are not sure of their ability to explain their opinions, they think they might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred they have gained over the years posting in the same forum.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

How about we secure the border so 9 month pregnant women can't come on over to have their child here?

I know, novel idea!

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How about we secure our border so that anyone coming over illegal can't. I know, crazy!

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

How about we secure our border so that anyone coming over illegal can't. I know, crazy!

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Exactly!

But I guess our time and taxes are better spent on passing and fighting through ultimately unconstitutional legislation... :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by ElNono

How about we secure the border so 9 month pregnant women can't come on over to have their child here?

I know, novel idea!

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100% agree. we shouldn't be making people born in the us non citizens.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

How about we secure our border so that anyone coming over illegal can't. I know, crazy!

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Because, and I know this may be difficult to understand, if incentive exists, there is no such thing as a secure border. "Secure border" is a catch phrase that exists so that simpletons who want an easy solution to a complex problem have something to rally around. Don't be fooled however, secure border ONLY exists as a phrase. Ask East Germany if anyone ever got through. Shit people INVENTED stuff to escape. I know, crazy!

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Because, and I know this may be difficult to understand, if incentive exists, there is no such thing as a secure border. "Secure border" is a catch phrase that exists so that simpletons who want an easy solution to a complex problem have something to rally around. Don't be fooled however, secure border ONLY exists as a phrase. Ask East Germany if anyone ever got through. Shit people INVENTED stuff to escape. I know, crazy!

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You mean we have technology good enough to track, image and lock on targets to within feets but we can't locate coyotes with groups of a dozen people moving around?

The comparison with East Germany is inane. The GDR was a dying regime that didn't have the economic resources nor technological resources we have. Not to mention that the wall came crumbling down 20 years ago. In technological terms, that's 3 or 4 lifetimes.

Ultimately, there always will be a 'human factor' you can't control. But if you reduce every day occurrences to a bare minimum, then those start to stand out. Unfortunately there's no political will to actually act on this, on either party.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Because, and I know this may be difficult to understand, if incentive exists, there is no such thing as a secure border. "Secure border" is a catch phrase that exists so that simpletons who want an easy solution to a complex problem have something to rally around. Don't be fooled however, secure border ONLY exists as a phrase. Ask East Germany if anyone ever got through. Shit people INVENTED stuff to escape. I know, crazy!

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A lock door only keeps the honest people honest. The problem is we don't even lock the goddamn door. Secure the borders, check anyones ID we want, punish people and businesses for helping these illegals. I know this may be hard to understand, if we do all this, not just one of them, they will stop coming over and we will run the ones here back home or to the immiigration office to become legal.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

A lock door only keeps the honest people honest. The problem is we don't even lock the goddamn door.

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There isn't any goddam door.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Why do some people only post questions?

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http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/...8260-IRONY.jpg

Is it still unconstitutional if they only add a stipulation to the ammendment?

"Anyone born on US soil is granted natural birth citizenship, unless parent is not a citizen"

what's wrong with adding that? seems logical to me.

What is wrong with replacing an outdated amendment with a new amendment to stop something that's obviously cost us more than its helped?

This amendment is costing us a lot, too much. Look at California. Among the states with probably the largest amount of illegal aliens....and look at their financial situation now.

I fully support this bill, but there needs to be more done. In regards to employment.

We have to

1) Stop outsourcing

2) Stop the hiring of illegal immigrants

then watch capitalism work it's magic on it's own, adapt to the new and LEGAL system, and after the dust settles, we are better for it.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

They are generally insecure. They are not sure of their ability to explain their opinions, they think they might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred they have gained over the years posting in the same forum.

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Actually I was trying to get someone to back up his contention.

I know that's something you could never do since you are generally insecure and not sure of your ability to explain your opinions. You think you might might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred--

--oh, that's right. You never had any.

Too bad you could never answer any questions. Merely bitching about my doing it shows just how insecure and petty you are.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

This amendment is costing us a lot, too much.

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Post how much it is costing us.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Nope.

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No shit.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

What is wrong with replacing an outdated amendment with a new amendment?

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Nothing wrong with it. It just needs to be done through a federal Constitutional amendment, not legislation.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Actually I was trying to get someone to back up his contention.

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I happily stand by my conjecture that illegal immigrants cost us more than contribute. No one has disproved it, so until further notice it stands. I have no problem changing my POV on the matter if information comes to light.

I'll leave the research to the pros. I've asked plenty of questions on this board outside of "troll-mode" and once in awhile I'll get someone that is kind enough to do the research or link me. Not my fault I'm not into giving intellectual handouts!!

4 million 'bridge babies" are born in the US every year just so the mothers/family get a free pass. We can deal with this without amending the constitution. Let the babies continue to be US citizens. Then give the undocumented mother a choice...Let the baby stay in the US and give it up for adoption OR take your US citizen baby back to Mexico and raise him. Either way, the undocumented MOTHER ain't stayin in the US.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

4 million 'bridge babies" are born in the US every year just so the mothers/family get a free pass. We can deal with this without amending the constitution. Let the babies continue to be US citizens. Then give the undocumented mother a choice...Let the baby stay in the US and give it up for adoption OR take your US citizen baby back to Mexico and raise him. Either way, the undocumented MOTHER ain't stayin in the US.

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Option 2 is what happens in most cases, as far as I've heard. Mother goes back to Mexico with US child. Once child becomes 18 years old, he can request papers for the entire immediate family, and the immigration laws indicate that the US basically can't say no.
In a way, one single US kid can eventually legalize all 6 brothers, and also mom and dad.

Again, we're barking at the wrong tree here. Without seriously attempting to close the border, we're basically wasting time and money.

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

I happily stand by my conjecture that illegal immigrants contribute more than they cost us. No one has disproved it, so until further notice it stands. I have no problem changing my POV on the matter if information comes to light.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Post how much it is costing us.

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Police services, medical services, social handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for a lower wage, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Actually I was trying to get someone to back up his contention.

I know that's something you could never do since you are generally insecure and not sure of your ability to explain your opinions. You think you might might be moving in the wrong direction of the topic and/or they think they might lose what ever cred--

--oh, that's right. You never had any.

Too bad you could never answer any questions. Merely bitching about my doing it shows just how insecure and petty you are.

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Who said I was talking about you? Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

I never answer your questions. :lmao

Don't be lame....Let me guess, you will tell me not to be lame, insecure and petty.

Don't feel hurt if I decide not to feed your troll anymore in this thread. Surprise, it gets boring after awhile.

MH, you're one stupid fuck. This an ad hominem attack based on hard evidence.

how about putting a term on how long the parents have to be in the US to grant citizenship to the child born? you would have to have a passport to document it, so that seems like a viable method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

I happily stand by my conjecture that illegal immigrants cost us more than contribute. No one has disproved it, so until further notice it stands. I have no problem changing my POV on the matter if information comes to light.

I'll leave the research to the pros. I've asked plenty of questions on this board outside of "troll-mode" and once in awhile I'll get someone that is kind enough to do the research or link me. Not my fault I'm not into giving intellectual handouts!!

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You haven't backed up your conjecture, so it happily stands as bullshit until proved otherwise.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

Police services, medical services, social handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for a lower wage, etc.

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That didn't say how much. Post how much it is costing.

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

Who said I was talking about you? Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

I never answer your questions. :lmao

Don't be lame....Let me guess, you will tell me not to be lame, insecure and petty.

Don't feel hurt if I decide not to feed your troll anymore in this thread. Surprise, it gets boring after awhile.

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Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

Who said I was talking about you? Feeling insecure, again! This post is another example of you being petty, again.

I never answer your questions. :lmao

Don't be lame....Let me guess, you will tell me not to be lame, insecure and petty.

Don't feel hurt if I decide not to feed your troll anymore in this thread. Surprise, it gets boring after awhile.

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so asking you to support your statements is petty.. ok dummy

Or, how about this...

In case no one has noticed, there is no political will to do anything about the situation besides Mexican border states.

You think Michigan gives a rat's ass about your immigrant problems? No offense, but there arent that many Canadians "jumping the fence" trying to get into the country.

No one knows your plight, if there is a "plight" here to even speak of at all.

That why the Federal government has done, basically, nothing about the national border. Try as you may, try as you might, people in Ohio have only a small understanding of the magnitude. You guys (thats you Southern boys and girls, near the border) cant go a day, heck maybe even a couple hours, without hearing Spanish.

I can go weeks, months. Normally, anyway.

It just isnt a nationwide problem, its a regional problem. A very large, important, economically stable region, yes, but still just a region.

Its California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. Two of those states are gigantic in both size, population, economy and political weight, to be sure. But it isnt enough.

California is not in the economic meltdown it finds itself today because of undocumented, non-taxpaying aliens. They made their own bed thinking the gravy-train would never stop, stupid regulations and laws that hurt every industrial business in the state. The entire agriculture sector is affected by things like gas tax, fuel efficency regulation, CO2 emission testing, etc, etc. California is a complete mess...admittedly, illegals certainly dont help the situation (i think?), but theyre not exacerbating it either.

Arizona is a far better example. Small population, large-ish state by way of square miles. If the significant number of illegals are using the system like a normal citizen of low income would, I could see their state budget getting affected measurably. Illegals get hurt, go to hospitals, never pay, someone else does, insurance rates go up, etc. Social welfare which does no check for citizenship (at least not here in Michigan they dont), sending money back to Mexico, never paying taxes, never learning the language or assimilating in anyway.

Texas is a lot like California, minus the extreme self-indebtedness. Thanks to an oil rich landscape amongst its existing economic diversity, Texas is unique in the United States.

This got wordy for no reason...

No one in the rest of the country cares, minus a few militia-types and theur inbred cousins. Mexicans arent "taking jobs" here in Michigan and I would think its like that jsut about everywhere else, too. Its kind of your problem.

You solve it, we all have our own. Secure your own damn borders, if your state feels theyd be better served if they did. Seems to me, your leadership doesnt think its that big of an issue. I dont see how illegal immigrants could have a powerful lobby in your state governments preventing effective change. If thats the case, the "aliens" are FAR more organized than you citizens are, and just further proves native-born Americans are lazy and contemptuous.

Your borders, your problem. If its even as big a problem as it is made to sound to begin with. Which, tbh, doesnt matter if it is or if it isnt. If it means that much to state residents, any law, any construction project can be passed. But it doesnt even seem that important to you folks down there (except Arizona), why should the rest of us care?

End Note:

So its known, I dont much give a shit one way or the other. Michigan is a political and economic shithole of no equal in the country. I hate my government and my ignorant, trailer trash, celebrity-worshiping, reality-television watching countrymen.

This whole country can take a giant shit on itself at this point, I think it'd be more productive, really. The weak die, the strong live, the world is a better place for it. Carrying all this deadweight that consumes, talks and dear God, votes is what is killing this country.

Thin the herd by any means necessary, thats my vote. Until anger and violence becomes the path to a solution, IMO, youre all just spinning your wheels. Nothing is going to change, certainly not for the better. All we see is the consolidation of power at the very top and what happens on CNN is the rest of us complaining about the scraps we're leftover after paying for all the deadweight that is allowed to exist in this country.

Politics are a waste of time, at this point. The time when politicians could "fix" this country's situation is gone, been gone, long gone, before I was born. This is the world as we know it, it only gets worse from here (unless there is some Earth-shattering scientific discovery).

The means and methods that we need to be employed to "fix" the United States are unbearable by a majority of the population. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare...all of it needs to end, today.

The military needs to be condensed...today.

Taxes need to go UP...today.

None of this will happen because it doesnt get anyone elected...

Which is why a dictatorship almost always follows a democracy. The inefficiencies of the system are almost always exposed, but we Americans have had the luxury of ever-lasting economic expansion to shield us from the true nature of deficit-spending. Greece knows...now. So does Spain...now.

We can laugh, but we;re right behind them. They just dont have the military might the US does and world economic influence because of our sole-superpower position.

Illegal aliens?

Really?

This is the problem we choose to focus on? Two wars that look to never end, a collapsing currency, an ecological disaster that looks to maybe be only one small step less of a disaster than Chernobyl, a country of corporate culture that literally stole trillions from US citizens and are yet, still alive and well today?

Illegal aliens?

Really?!

Whatever keeps you distracted, I guess. I am just as incredibly guilty as all of you (us).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

You solve it, we all have our own. Secure your own damn borders, if your state feels theyd be better served if they did. Seems to me, your leadership doesnt think its that big of an issue. I dont see how illegal immigrants could have a powerful lobby in your state governments preventing effective change. If thats the case, the "aliens" are FAR more organized than you citizens are, and just further proves native-born Americans are lazy and contemptuous.

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Isn't that what Arizona is trying to do?

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

The time when politicians could "fix" this country's situation is gone, been gone, long gone, before I was born. This is the world as we know it, it only gets worse from here (unless there is some Earth-shattering scientific discovery).

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<sigh> So when you look back at previous generations who proclaimed the end was near do you think to yourself "they were right" or do you think "what silly fatalists".

Look it's pretty simple. We are maybe 3-4 election cycles away from getting an effective government. We're already through the phase of conservative minded people realizing the RNC house needs to be cleaned. Now democrats are rapidly realizing their house is fucked and needs a good cleaning(this is happening faster than I expected). So yeah there are some very hard times ahead but it's a pretty ingenious system our founding fathers came up with and we'll survive, well most of us anyways. All you need to do is everything you can make sure you're one of the ones who gets through the hard times and then wait for better days. This country has been through worse.

"secure our damn borders"

what exactly is the Repugs' specific, concrete method for securing our borders.

And why didn't they do it for the 8 years they were in power?

One Repug suggested mine fields. Anyone?

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

conservatives don't care about illegal babies..

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or you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

<sigh> So when you look back at previous generations who proclaimed the end was near do you think to yourself "they were right" or do you think "what silly fatalists".

Look it's pretty simple. We are maybe 3-4 election cycles away from getting an effective government. We're already through the phase of conservative minded people realizing the RNC house needs to be cleaned. Now democrats are rapidly realizing their house is fucked and needs a good cleaning(this is happening faster than I expected). So yeah there are some very hard times ahead but it's a pretty ingenious system our founding fathers came up with and we'll survive, well most of us anyways. All you need to do is everything you can make sure you're one of the ones who gets through the hard times and then wait for better days. This country has been through worse.

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Maybe youre right, I certainly hope you are. But the history of this country has never seen the amount of debt coupled with lack of political will to do anything about it. The national debt was gigantic (relative to GDP or GNP, whichever suits your fancy) after the Civil War. What is different now from then is that the succeeding government(s) of the time thought it prudent to pay that debt down as soon as humanly possible (and they did).

Nothing...and I really mean nothing about this 20th century US government shows even the slightest inclination of similar will. Nevermind the additional fact that government provides and is involved so much more in the everyday lives of so many citizens.

The problems of this day, IMO, are far more complex then any of the previous incarnations. The Great Depression is the only eclipsing example and it took a World War to fix that. The problem with trying to repeat that same solution is the fact that the next World War will be most likely be the last.

Youre far more optimistic than me, but thats akin to pointing out the extremely obvious. Re-reading my "say-nothing" posts, it comes off as whiny and melancholy. Wasnt the intention, just a bit of a half-cocked, unprovoked rant as I survey the political landscape from uneducated eyes. People, IMO, tend to focus far too closely on the details. There is an over-arching picture to be seen that is being ignored either ignorantly or willfully.

I am done...you may as well be right.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

so asking you to support your statements is petty.. ok dummy

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What are you talking about this time?

George might be retarded.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

That didn't say how much. Post how much it is costing.

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It's costing us a lot of money to provide services for the illegals.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

It's costing us a lot of money to provide services for the illegals.

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That didn't say how much. Post a number. From a real source.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

That didn't say how much. Post a number. From a real source.

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I am a real human, I'm not fake.

As for number, it's definitely above $10,000,000.

Costing a lot.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

I am a real human, I'm not fake.

As for number, it's definitely above $10,000,000.

Costing a lot.

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So you don't have an actual number and you just made one up.

That was expected.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So you don't have an actual number and you just made one up.

That was expected.

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no, $10,000,000 dollars actually do exist, it's not fake.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

no, $10,000,000 dollars actually do exist, it's not fake.

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It's not the cost.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

It's not the cost.

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It's definitely surpasses $10,000,000

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

It's definitely surpasses $10,000,000

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How do you know?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

That didn't say how much. Post a number. From a real source.

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Chump, what don't you get off that horse. I've seen the numbers before for my state. It's fucking ridiculous. They contribute so little compared to the social services that use. Numbers. Screw that, I'm not even going to look. The internet has co much more material that supports liberal thoughts. The numbers or periodically brought up by conservative talk show hiosts, and when someine shows you a number, you will find some way to disqualify it. That's just your style.

Wake up and smell the truth. Most of them qualify for subsidized everything. In my state, if they are brown, the social services doesn't even verify anything they say. they just hand out the benefits like candy. If you are black or white however, you have to have papers up your ass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

How do you know?

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Because police force, medical services such as hospital visit emergency rooms, ambulances, public education, social services / handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for slave wages,

all of these things put together add up to much more than $10,000,000

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Chump, what don't you get off that horse. I've seen the numbers before for my state. It's fucking ridiculous. They contribute so little compared to the social services that use. Numbers. Screw that, I'm not even going to look. The internet has co much more material that supports liberal thoughts. The numbers or periodically brought up by conservative talk show hiosts, and when someine shows you a number, you will find some way to disqualify it. That's just your style.

Wake up and smell the truth. Most of them qualify for subsidized everything. In my state, if they are brown, the social services doesn't even verify anything they say. they just hand out the benefits like candy. If you are black or white however, you have to have papers up your ass.

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yes i agree

1) with the stolen job they have, by offering to work for slave wages,

2) they send a lot of it back to mexico for their familie

3) that money should have been invested in their community, supporting stores, services, etc.

there are many many things they do that hurt this country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So conservatives are hoping for an activist judge to make new law.

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um, passing a bill through a legislature and hoping a judge will side with them would be the exact opposite judicial activism.

Judicial activism would be if some judge decided to agree with them out of the blue while hearing a case on a completely unrelated matter.

but don't let the obvious get in the way of making witty remarks about conservatives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

there are many many things they do that hurt this country.

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Like rape, murder, robbery, molesting, car jacking, prostitution, drug dealing, kidnapping....Lots of things, just naming a few things

most illegals don't commit those crimes though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

most illegals don't commit those crimes though

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True but lots do.

2007 CBO Report of Illegal Alien's impact on State and Local Governments Budgets

I believe it's the latest you can find...

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

2007 CBO Report of Illegal Alien's impact on State and Local Governments Budgets

I believe it's the latest you can find...

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

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Can you summarize it for us?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

most illegals don't commit those crimes though

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Yep,I think we can forget the crime angle and still have plenty of valid reasons to make them unwelcome. Most the serious crimes are in the southern states, although there is still plenty per capita by them where I live. Almost as bad as crimes by blacks per capita.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

Can you summarize it for us?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Chump, what don't you get off that horse. I've seen the numbers before for my state.

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Give me a link to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

2007 CBO Report of Illegal Alien's impact on State and Local Governments Budgets

I believe it's the latest you can find...

I really haven't read it all, but if you guys are truly interested in getting informed, there is an actual study based on about 15 years of state and local reports...

---

Here's an interesting on from that file:

Quote:

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Another report—prepared by the state comptroller of
Texas—estimated that, in 2006, the state collected
$424 million more in revenue from unauthorized immigrants
than it spent to provide education, health care, and
law enforcement activities for that population. However,
the state estimated that local governments incurred
$1.4 billion in uncompensated costs for health care and
law enforcement.

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Looks like an approximate Billion dollar loss to me.

How about unwelcome them on the basis that they didn't enter the country legally?

Another interesting tidbit from there:

Historically, most foreign-born residents, including unauthorized immigrants, have settled in a few states. In 1990, almost 75 percent of the total foreign-born population and almost 90 percent of unauthorized immigrants lived in six states: California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and Texas The concentration of that population in just a few states has been diminishing, however, as more immigrants settle in states not traditionally consid- ered destinations for recent immigrant populations. Using census data, Pew found that, in 2004, 10 times as many unauthorized immigrants lived outside the six traditional settlement states than in 1990. There was a marked increase in the number of unauthorized immigrants settling in states such as Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee—states that previously had little experience with such immigration. That phenomenon notwithstanding, unauthorized immigrants in most states make up a small portion of the state’s population. In California, however, where Pew estimates that one-quarter of all unauthorized immigrants live, those immigrants make up an estimated 8 percent of the total state population.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boutons_deux

When can states pass state laws that override the Constitution?

When can states grant/revoke US citizenship?

Any state that has Sharron Angle as a candidate is one fucked up state.

Meanwhile, McLiar declares himslef the unMaverick and flip flops on every single position he has ever taken in desperation to keep his Senate seat. A principled man. McCain-Feingold anyone? :lol

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guess what is against the constitution to have a income tax


since when if is against the constition does it matter


and for your info
when the consition was written people got shot entering the country illegally!
people did not think of someone here illegally would actually be able to have a baby at a hospital!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Another interesting tidbit from there:

Quote:

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In California, however, where Pew estimates that one-quarter of all unauthorized immigrants live, those immigrants make up an estimated 8 percent of the total state population.

---

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I wonder what percentage of the state and local social services budget they use?

I wonder how much of California's budget problems they are?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

How about unwelcome them on the basis that they didn't enter the country legally?

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What does it matter on what basis we unwelcome them? Political correctness? So you feel better? So we don't hurt someone's feelings?

There are many reasons why we should unwelcome them, and they should all be considered and grouped together into one big "STAY OUT" sign.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

How do you know?

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how the fucking hell do you know it fucking is not

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ducks

how the fucking hell do you know it fucking is not

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No credible source. I was only asking for a credible source, champ. Looks like the "conservatives" here aren't very forthcoming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

No credible source. I was only asking for a credible source, champ. Looks like the "conservatives" here aren't very forthcoming.

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I am not a conservative at all, nor am I a liberal....

I already told you, it costs a lot of money. WildCobra provided proof up there. $1 billion state loss for the year 2006. That's a hell of a lot of money for a state to lose.

who says he is not a crediable source



who makes a crediable source to you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

What does it matter on what basis we unwelcome them? Political correctness? So you feel better? So we don't hurt someone's feelings?
There are many reasons why we should unwelcome them, and they should all be considered and grouped together into one big "STAY OUT" sign.

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My point being the same point I've been making: We have plenty of those "STAY OUT" signs in the border. Doesn't seem to stop them from coming in though, do they?

If you don't get serious about stopping them from easily coming in, then what's the point of all these retarded laws?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

I am not a conservative at all, nor am I a liberal....

I already told you, it costs a lot of money. WildCobra provided proof up there. $1 billion state loss for the year 2006. That's a hell of a lot of money for a state to lose.

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You provided no proof.

Neither did WC.

It was ElNono.

Now we're getting somewhere.

OK, if there is a net loss in tax money -- what is the economic impact of illegal immigrants on prices of food, construction, landscaping, child care and other labor in which illegals are concentrated? Do they have a net effect on the prices of these things for the citizens of these states?

I certainly don't have the numbers for that, but I think that may give a more complete picture of the situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ducks

who says he is not a crediable source



who makes a crediable source to you?

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ElNono provided one.

This isn't rocket science.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I wonder what percentage of the state and local social services budget they use?
I wonder how much of California's budget problems they are?

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I don't readily know, but looks like you could chop 25% of the problem by just addressing the issue in California alone.

I thought that was interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

My point being the same point I've been making: We have plenty of those "STAY OUT" signs in the border. Doesn't seem to stop them from coming in though, do they?

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Are you taking my metaphor literally?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elnono

If you don't get serious about stopping them from easily coming in, then what's the point of all these retarded laws?

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1) We also have to kick out the millions upons millions of illegals already here

2) 100% securing the border is completely impossible. People will always find a way to smuggle humans in. So we have to make laws to discourage them from coming in the first place

3) The ideal solution would be to have a border that doesn't need expensive security. Illegals just don't want to come anymore. Problem solved!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

1) We also have to kick out the millions upons millions of illegals already here

2) 100% securing the border is completely impossible. People will always find a way to smuggle humans in. So we have to make laws to discourage them from coming in the first place

3) The ideal solution would be to have a border that doesn't need expensive security. Illegals just don't want to come anymore. Problem solved!

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People risks their own life to come here and you think you can legislate disincentives :lol

That's just being naïve. The few disincentives you can create is by having the American economy in worst shape than the economy on their respective countries (or the opposite, that their economy improves beyond ours), or by securing the border enough such that supply of access is minimized to a point where it becomes unaffordable to the mass of illegal immigrants we have penetrating the border now. The rest is simply fantasy.

I don't claim we need 100% border control, but we can do considerably better than we currently are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ducks

who says he is not a crediable source



who makes a crediable source to you?

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It is impossible to debate Chumop when he gets that way. No matter what you provide, he will ask another question, often just a bit different than the discussion.

Times like this are times to ignore the asshole.