Looks like it is finally happening

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Do you have a link to that?

I'd like to see it.

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That's one of your problems. You only believe what you read on the internet.

This was a radio interview something last year. Sorry, I have no link for it, nor do I expect to find one.

Does 3 cents a pound sound unreasonable for a difference in labor cost? I personally think it's high, because a single person can easily pick quite a few pounds an hour.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Fair enough. Theoretically, if illegal labor does lower prices for US consumers, how much more are you willing to pay for food and housing, for example? A rough percentage will do fine.

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I am a great patriot in my heart, so I will be willing to pay whatever the market settles into.... in our theoretical world where illegal workers do not exist.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

There could be.

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and there could not be. Who knows?

As of right now, we DO know that Texas lost $1 billion due to illegals in the year 2006. That's a lot of money. Much more than my $10,000,000 earlier.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

That's one of your problems. You only believe what you read on the internet.

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I read your posts on the internet and I don't believe them.

I just wanted a link, douche. I was interested. It could certainly be true -- it's just that you lie so often.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

I am a great patriot in my heart, so I will be willing to pay whatever the market settles into.... in our theoretical world where illegal workers do not exist.

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Any price?

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As of right now, we DO know that Texas lost $1 billion due to illegals in the year 2006. That's a lot of money.

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So what do you want done about it?

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Any price?

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Whatever the market settles into. That is how great of an american patriot I am in my heart! Oooo say can you see!

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So what do you want done about it?

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I believe I already stated that in my previous posts.

Illegals are using our resources....Police services, medical services, social handouts, stealing jobs by offering to work for a lower wage, etc.

costing this country A LOT of money.

We need to kill their desire to enter the USA illegally.

Illegal labor saves US citizens billions of dollars yearly in lower cost food, housing and many, many services...studies show, way more than they consume nationally....trouble is illegals aren't spread out across the country evenly, so border states like Texas, Arizona, and California must use local and state money to deal with the symptoms of illegal immigration...

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

You haven't backed up your conjecture, so it happily stands as bullshit until proved otherwise.

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Of course it's bullshit, it's a conjecture. You do know the definition of conjecture don't you? Try not to be so redundant, come out of your bunker and contribute an opinion on the topic and not just the opinions of others. Don't worry, I won't pull the "bullshit" card on you - it's the internet so it's a given. :king

Someone posted earlier about this issue mainly being discussed only by borders states and most other states aren't too concerned. They could alienate Hispanic/various immigrant voters when they really don't need to, it's a battle they don't need to involve themselves in at this time. As stupid as Arizona is, it's getting easier to understand why they feel the need to do certain things when the rest of the states/feds sit around with their thumbs up their ass. It's an issue that takes courage to tackle because we are a nation of immigrants, but just like a dozen other issues facing this country we cannot sustain this pace.

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As stupid as Arizona is, it's getting easier to understand why they feel the need to do certain things when the rest of the states/feds sit around with their thumbs up their ass.

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Is it really? Immigrants eventually become tax-payers and every state needs more tax payers than consumers....look at every failed, oppressive nation and their tight immigration policies..they did themselves in just as Arizona is today...

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

It's an issue that takes courage to tackle because we are a nation of immigrants, but just like a dozen other issues facing this country we cannot sustain this pace.

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The pace has abated during the epochal recession, and the historical trend of violent crime in AZ has been downward, believe it or not. For quite awhile now. The law and order complaint is overblown.

If you want to make the argument from the standpoint of employment, that's something different. The threat to life and property has been overhyped.

The trouble in Arizona is the same as every other border state - the failure of political will to raise state and local tax rates to pay for the services they receive....blaming the immigrant is just a method of deflecting blame to someone who has practically no political voice..

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

The trouble in Arizona is the same as every other border state - the failure of political will to raise state and local tax rates to pay for the services they receive....

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A quibble, Sir: how is it all that much different for all the other states and indeed the country as a whole?

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....blaming the immigrant is just a method of deflecting blame to someone who has practically no political voice...

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Timed and executed correctly, it can be very effective in the short term.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

The pace has abated during the epochal recession, and the historical trend of violent crime in AZ has been downward, believe it or not. For quite awhile now. The law and order complaint is overblown.

If you want to make the argument from the standpoint of employment, that's something different. The threat to life and property has been overhyped.

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I agree on the "threat to life and property" pleas being overblown, that's not something I've ever bought into despite the fear mongering about illegals coming over to kill ranchers only to flee back to Mexico for what appears to be no reason at all. :rolleyes

@Nbadan: That sounds plausible, but it'd be nice if we could have a working border policy. Immigrants aren't the only things that go bump in the night down here. :(

Memory and moral conscience are bitches, however. AZ would do well to keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Stringer_Bell

I agree on the "threat to life and property" pleas being overblown, that's not something I've ever bought into despite the fear mongering about illegals coming over to kill ranchers only to flee back to Mexico for what appears to be no reason at all. :rolleyes

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I'm not saying nothing like that happens. I don't doubt it does from time to time. I'm just saying it doesn't move the aggregate, like has been suggested by some.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

A quibble, Sir: how is it all that much different for all the other states and indeed the country as a whole?

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it's not...raise taxes and the deficits get smaller every year until we reach a point where it can be paid down...inflationary pressures on the dollar ease despite our own economic success, unlike now where too much growth too fast, or exactly what the country needs, is inflationary.

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raise taxes and the deficits get smaller every year

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Will it work if you don't trim services at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Will it work if you don't trim services at the same time?

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Some modifications are always necessary, more important is that no new services are added without a accompaning way to pay for these new services..

Maybe we don't need new services. Maybe we just need to figure out how to pay for the ones we have, or short of that, cutting them to size.

Which particular services are you talking about?

I see billions of dollars in pork-barrel waste in Military spending...corporate welfare...

Sure. Big defense is big government. But so are Social Security and Medicare.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You mean we have technology good enough to track, image and lock on targets to within feets but we can't locate coyotes with groups of a dozen people moving around?

The comparison with East Germany is inane. The GDR was a dying regime that didn't have the economic resources nor technological resources we have. Not to mention that the wall came crumbling down 20 years ago. In technological terms, that's 3 or 4 lifetimes.

Ultimately, there always will be a 'human factor' you can't control. But if you reduce every day occurrences to a bare minimum, then those start to stand out. Unfortunately there's no political will to actually act on this, on either party.

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I anticipated this type of response and apologize for responding so late. I have had a sick daughter all week long and have been tending to her. The DDR wasn't always a dying regime and they were the most vibrant economy in the eastern block. Still people escaped. The government had far superior techonological resources to their citizens at that time. and so the advantage went to the government here. The government wasn't above the use of extremely brutal tactics in order to keep their population within the (literally) walls. Land mines, guard towers, and patrol boats with shoot to kill on sight orders when they saw someone escaping. Not to mention one of the greatest citizen-informant networks so far, the Stazi. With all of this in place, people still escaped.

Now you are saying that 20 years ago was 3 or 4 technological lifetimes ago. This is true. So both the government AND regular joes have increased their technological capabilities by many times. If you think that those streaming across the border have no technological capabilities, think again. If the cartels see profit in it, they will put the resources together to make it happen.

As an aside, did you know that that scuba swimmer thing (the one that divers hold onto that has propellers in it to move them along) was invented by an east german who successfully escaped.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

No, it means I want actual numbers, not something you or someone else pulled out of your ass. You are so busy being a pussy about the question I asked, you didn't notice that it had been answered (Thanks, ElNono. It's amazing that idiots like WC and MH and ducks and jack just can't say "I don't know where the actual numbers are") and I had moved on in the discussion. It's obvious you just want to keep bitching about me.

Have at it, douche.

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You have an internet connection, right? You have an amazing resource that has revolutionized the dissemination of information over the 15-20 years. Welcome to the information age. Have at it!

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

I personally believe capitalism should be forced to adapt to a world without illegal workers, so whatever the effects are, if there are any in the first place, are irrelevant to me.

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There are effects. If you think they are irrelevant, then you are simply not weighing all the available evidence before forming your opinion.

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Originally Posted by MiamiHeat

I think there may not be any evidence on that subject.

Do you believe there is evidence on this subject, that the labor of illegal workers lowers the prices of anything consumed by US citizens?

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I believe there is. As with so many things all it takes is the first college course in micro-economics.

Farmers and construction companies seek various inputs.
Labor
Fertilizer
Pesticides
Construction materials.

Reduce the price of any of those inputs and you decrease the price that they can offer their outputs, i.e. food and construction.

Since we all eat food, and live/work in constructed buildings that generally makes those goods more available to us.

scott, an actual professor of economics started a thread recently about this very subject, and outlined the principles involved.