NBA Playbook: Can He Bounce Back? Richard Jefferson

I still think RJ is athletic. Maybe not like he was when he was with the Nets, but he still gots it. I think he'll improve. However, he needs to start turning into a spot up shooter somewhat because as he gets older he's not gonna get more athletic.

I think RJ plays better with Manu. I think Hill, TP, Splitter, Duncan, and fill in the blank SF should be the starting lineup. Blair, Dice, Manu, RJ, and I'm guessing Temple at the PG should be the second unit.

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Originally Posted by Blackjack

[B][U]
This past season, Richard Jefferson had one of the worst years of his career. His 12.3 points per game was his lowest since his rookie year in 2001 (when he averaged just 24 minutes per game) and his PER of 13.18 was the lowest of his career.

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His PER needs to improve to at least 17. Since he plays a lot of minutes already, this necessarily means that his scoring and rebounding need to pick up a bit.

Will they? I wouldn't hold my breath especially with Splitter coming over and Blair improving. There's only so many possessions to go around.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

:lol Sean Elliott took it to the rim slightly more than Bowen did. It was the biggest knock on his game that he wouldn't go to the rim even if there was a lane.

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Yeah but when he did, he usually finished. Once Bowen was forced off of his spot, the result was usually pretty ugly.

Translation: Parker needs to learn how to pass the ball to a cutter that is open.

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Originally Posted by VI_Massive

All the references to his diminshed and diminishing athleticism make me sick to my stomach, since we're now tied to him for 4 more years. Can he really change his game this late in his career to adjust? Can anyone think of a comparable player who relied on athleticism throughout his career and effectively altered his game to suit his diminished athletic capacity?

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OV mentioned Michael Finley. I'd add Michael Jordan to that list as well.

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Originally Posted by Agloco

Yeah but when he did, he usually finished. Once Bowen was forced off of his spot, the result was usually pretty ugly.

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When he went to the bucket with the intention of finishing, he usually did. The problem is he didn't go to the bucket much and when he did he didn't always go with the intent to finish. If he'd been as good a shooter as Bowen nobody would have complained.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

The biggest knock? I don't think so. You are obviously overstating to prove your point. Not to mention being a total asshole while doing it.
My point was Elliott was more than a spot up shooter in the Spurs' system and he was never a consistent 3 point shooter. People have the Memorial Day Miracle burned into their brains and think that Elliott was just lights out from that corner three. Not true. He wasn't bad, but he only had three season where he shot slightly above 40%.

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Name a bigger knock on Sean Elliott. It was all about his lack of aggressiveness on the offensive end. I don't think there was really any complaint about any other part of his game.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Name a bigger knock on Sean Elliott. It was all about his lack of aggressiveness on the offensive end. I don't think there was really any complaint about any other part of his game.

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You are continuing to argue your own point instead of the one I made. Which was, again, the Spurs system SF does not have to be, solely, a corner 3 pt shooter. You are being argumentative, confrontational and condescending to anyone who isn't completely trashing Jefferson and I am not interested anymore.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

You are continuing to argue your own point instead of the one I made. Which was, again, the Spurs system SF does not have to be, solely, a corner 3 pt shooter. You are being argumentative, confrontational and condescending to anyone who isn't completely trashing Jefferson and I am not interested anymore.

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The point that you made is that the small forward position isn't primarily spot up shooting, and you blamed the weaknesses in Bruce Bowen's game for that and then cited a guy who was primarily a spot up shooter. You then called me an asshole, said I'm being argumentative and accused me of completely thrashing Jefferson. You've basically been making excuses for him throughout this thread and if you want to use bogus facts about past players in order to do so, expect to be called out on it.

Jefferson relies on his athletecism to do most everything he does well, and once that's gone he doesn't really have any other skills to fall back on. Elliott actually did an excellent job of extending his range as he got older, which made him more valuable, plus he always prided himself on aggressive defense, something RJ doesn't do. Elliott paved the way for Bowen in the Spurs' system.

I miss the Ninga. RJ needs to develop a shot. Whether the corner three or a 18-20 footer. He can't just rely on slashing to the basket.

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Originally Posted by MoSpur

I miss the Ninga. RJ needs to develop a shot. Whether the corner three or a 18-20 footer. He can't just rely on slashing to the basket.

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If RJ can concentrate on developing a shot and can focus a little more on defense, he suddenly becomes extremely valuable to the Spurs. He doesn't have to hit threes, he just has to pick a spot and make it his.

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Originally Posted by SCdac

Richard Jefferson's athleticism may be regressing but he's still one of the most athletic on our particular team.

Have to keep in mind he's more of a stocky forward than a quick-like guard, and matched up against other forwards, he's not a bad option.


Jefferson publicly admitted to having a disappointing season, I'm sure he understands. Hopefully him, Popovich, the Big-3, and George Hill, all continue to gel enough to where Jefferson in time gains more of a Tayshuan Prince type of role as far as chemistry and Points Per Game (Prince was typically around the 3/4th scoring option in Detroit, but effective).

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As I've said before, RJ isn't a bad player. He just doesn't fit well on this team. I don't expect much more effectiveness from him, not so much because of him, but because the Spurs offense doesn't suit his style of play and TP isn't the type of PG that can make a player like RJ flourish.

That said, I've had some time to think about RJ and I'm willing to give him a second-season, benefit-of-the-doubt. Despite his shortcomings, I still rather have him than say, a Vince Carter or a Michael Finley.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

The point that you made is that the small forward position isn't primarily spot up shooting, and you blamed the weaknesses in Bruce Bowen's game for that and then cited a guy who was primarily a spot up shooter.

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You are telling me what my point was . . . I didn't blame anyone, I pointed out that Bowen's offensive game was limited to the corner three. Which is true. It's also true that Bowen worked so dilligently on that aspect of his game that it became a weapon. Sean Elliott was not "primarily" a spot up shooter until toward the end of his career when he lost some quickness. Elliott's All-Star days were marked by his athletic ability and his explosiveness going to the basket.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

You then called me an asshole, said I'm being argumentative and accused me of completely thrashing Jefferson. You've basically been making excuses for him throughout this thread and if you want to use bogus facts about past players in order to do so, expect to be called out on it.

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I called you an asshole because you are dismissive of anyone whose opinion differs from yours with your little laughing emoticon. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours does not make their "facts" bogus.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Jefferson relies on his athleticism to do most everything he does well, and once that's gone he doesn't really have any other skills to fall back on. Elliott actually did an excellent job of extending his range as he got older, which made him more valuable, plus he always prided himself on aggressive defense, something RJ doesn't do. Elliott paved the way for Bowen in the Spurs' system.

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I mostly agree with this except for the idea that there is no way that Jefferson can improve in these areas. Outside of last year, Jefferson has proved he can do these thing well. No one seems to be taking his whole career into consideration when evaluating his capabilities.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

I called you an asshole because you are dismissive of anyone whose opinion differs from yours with your little laughing emoticon. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours does not make their "facts" bogus.

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You are free to interpret or misinterpret the laughing emoticon as you wish, but I laughed because your facts were bogus and they were the whole basis for your argument. Sean Elliott throughout his career was not a slasher. He had the talent to be, and the Spurs would have been a lot better had he been, but he wasn't. The only season where he really gave some effort in that area he was an all-star, but he was never as aggressive as he should have been. Bowen turned Elliott's role into a specialty because he probably didn't have the talent to be a slasher like Elliott did.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

I mostly agree with this except for the idea that there is no way that Jefferson can improve in these areas. Outside of last year, Jefferson has proved he can do these thing well. No one seems to be taking his whole career into consideration when evaluating his capabilities.

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There you go interpreting things again. You should have that checked. If only I'd said that there was no way that Jefferson could improve, but alas, I didn't. Jefferson has yet to prove that he can play defense well or score consistently when he's not the first or second option. I certainly hope that he does this season.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

You are free to interpret or misinterpret the laughing emoticon as you wish, but I laughed because your facts were bogus and they were the whole basis for your argument. Sean Elliott throughout his career was not a slasher. He had the talent to be, and the Spurs would have been a lot better had he been, but he wasn't. The only season where he really gave some effort in that area he was an all-star, but he was never as aggressive as he should have been. Bowen turned Elliott's role into a specialty because he probably didn't have the talent to be a slasher like Elliott did.

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First of all, I gave no "facts" just my opinion. Same as you. I do remember Sean getting knocked for not being aggressive enough. The whole Spurs team at that time were labeled as "soft". I think he was a fairly balanced inside/out player on the whole and I wouldn't necessarily characterize him as favoring one over the other, but I certainly wouldn't say he was primarily a jump shooter.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

There you go interpreting things again. You should have that checked. If only I'd said that there was no way that Jefferson could improve, but alas, I didn't. Jefferson has yet to prove that he can play defense well or score consistently when he's not the first or second option. I certainly hope that he does this season.

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Well, I'm certainly not going to go digging through all of your comments to cite a reference and if you are sure that you have never doubted Jefferson's ability to improve next season, then I apologize. However, if you look at Jefferson's career, most of the things he is being accused of not being able to do, he actually has done.

I don't really feel like defending Jefferson anymore. It's obvious that some people are locked into their opinions and that is not going to change. There are some people here that have different opinions from mine that I can have a civil debate with. I'm not sure if you are one of those people.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

Well, I'm certainly not going to go digging through all of your comments to cite a reference and if you are sure that you have never doubted Jefferson's ability to improve next season, then I apologize.

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I'd have saved you the time anyway: I doubt Jefferson's ability to improve. Only an idiot wouldn't doubt his ability to improve. Look at his track record. His production last year was consistent with his production the rest of his career. He's basically showing no ability to adapt so far. I've said I'm hopeful, but I'd be lying if I told you I didn't have doubts.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

However, if you look at Jefferson's career, most of the things he is being accused of not being able to do, he actually has done.

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Since I've already gone over his career stats ad-nauseum, and am on the record saying that he hasn't done anything different, I'm going to have to wait for examples of him playing defense or being a smart shooter or being able to produce and contribute without getting a lot of shot attempts.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

I don't really feel like defending Jefferson anymore. It's obvious that some people are locked into their opinions and that is not going to change. There are some people here that have different opinions from mine that I can have a civil debate with. I'm not sure if you are one of those people.

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Sorry that you feel like a civil debate requires that other people accept your position, ignoring history, their facts and the information that they provide. Also sorry for your sake that you're unable to convince everyone to feel good about RJ's future with the team just because you, I dunno, like him or think he's a good guy.

You have a tendency to lock yourself into "this guy's good" or "this guy's bad" and you spend way too much time digging your heels in to pay attention to the discourse, and that much more time crying about how rotten everyone is that doesn't agree with you. Since we're in the offseason, nothing's going to change in peoples' positions until guys start playing ball and giving us new information, so stating opinions and giving evidence is the best any of us can do until then.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I'd have saved you the time anyway: I doubt Jefferson's ability to improve. Only an idiot wouldn't doubt his ability to improve. Look at his track record. His production last year was consistent with his production the rest of his career. He's basically showing no ability to adapt so far. I've said I'm hopeful, but I'd be lying if I told you I didn't have doubts.

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It's no more idiotic to assume he can improve than to assume he can't. Again you are being condescending and argumentative to anyone who does not share your opinion. You are using the same M.O. in any of the 5 to 6 arguments you are currently engaged in on this board. I have my doubts too. Any reasonable person would.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Since I've already gone over his career stats ad-nauseum, and am on the record saying that he hasn't done anything different, I'm going to have to wait for examples of him playing defense or being a smart shooter or being able to produce and contribute without getting a lot of shot attempts.

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All you have to do is read the article that is linked in the OP of this very thread to see an example of someone who has taken the time to show exactly what Jefferson needs to improve on and given specific details how he has shown aptitude in those areas during his career.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

You have a tendency to lock yourself into "this guy's good" or "this guy's bad" and you spend way too much time digging your heels in to pay attention to the discourse, and that much more time crying about how rotten everyone is that doesn't agree with you. Since we're in the offseason, nothing's going to change in peoples' positions until guys start playing ball and giving us new information, so stating opinions and giving evidence is the best any of us can do until then.

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This part is all just a gigantic pile of horseshit and you know it. I don't believe those things at all. Your misguided interpretation and ridiculous assumptions shouldn't be part of this conversation. You are just purposefully trying to insult and discredit me without any self awareness to speak of. I'm not crying and I don't care if you agree with me or not.

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Originally Posted by VI_Massive

All the references to his diminshed and diminishing athleticism make me sick to my stomach, since we're now tied to him for 4 more years. Can he really change his game this late in his career to adjust? Can anyone think of a comparable player who relied on athleticism throughout his career and effectively altered his game to suit his diminished athletic capacity?

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Karl Malone, Terry Porter and Jerome Kersey to name only a few.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

If RJ can concentrate on developing a shot and can focus a little more on defense, he suddenly becomes extremely valuable to the Spurs. He doesn't have to hit threes, he just has to pick a spot and make it his.

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he does have to be able to hit threes from his spot though or else the defense will just sag, like the Suns did.

what really really hurt the Spurs last year was not only that, but that RMJ couldn't hit a shot. so the Spurs had no alternative to RJ. RMJ went virtually unscathed by fans and media last year, with RJ getting most of the blame.

RJ will never be a dead-on three point shooter, but i'm hoping he can do better than last year. it'd be great if he can shoot it at 36 %.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

It's no more idiotic to assume he can improve than to assume he can't. Again you are being condescending and argumentative to anyone who does not share your opinion. You are using the same M.O. in any of the 5 to 6 arguments you are currently engaged in on this board. I have my doubts too. Any reasonable person would.

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Kind of flies in the face of "if you are sure that you have never doubted Jefferson's ability to improve next season", doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

This part is all just a gigantic pile of horseshit and you know it. I don't believe those things at all. Your misguided interpretation and ridiculous assumptions shouldn't be part of this conversation. You are just purposefully trying to insult and discredit me without any self awareness to speak of. I'm not crying and I don't care if you agree with me or not.

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I'm not the one calling people names, you are. I'm not the one accusing others of being condescending and argumentative.

Seriously, who complains about someone arguing with them on an Internet message board and then has the chutzpah to deny being a crybaby?

I was shocked that Jefferson opted. I dont think Ive ever been more positive about anything as much as I was that Jefferson was going to collect that 15 million. Especially considering how market value had plummeted last season.

The the Spurs go and sign him for 10 million a year for the next four years?

Are you freaking kidding me?!!!

What did they think other teams would offer him? Who with cap space would want him? The Clippers? The Nets? The Knicks?

Maybe the Knicks, but how much would they offer the guy? I think a player like Jefferson is a 6-7 million player. You would never want to allocate 1/5 of the salary cap to him considering he cant do everything you need from a player at his position (most notably shoot).

And even if the Knicks were to offer Jefferson 10 million, so what? LET THEM HAVE HIM!! Jefferson fucking sucks!

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Kind of flies in the face of "if you are sure that you have never doubted Jefferson's ability to improve next season", doesn't it?

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I was asking you. I already knew how I felt. So, no.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I'm not the one calling people names, you are. I'm not the one accusing others of being condescending and argumentative.

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You mocked my statement while simultaneously misinterpreting and misrepresenting it's intent. I called you an asshole. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Seriously, who complains about someone arguing with them on an Internet message board and then has the chutzpah to deny being a crybaby?

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Who's complaining? If I had time and wasn't so easily bored I would argue this all day. Criticizing your inability to argue on topic and being dubious of your intentions when you turn it into a personal issue is not really being a crybaby.

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Originally Posted by ohmwrecker

I was asking you. I already knew how I felt. So, no.

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If you know how you felt, then I'm not sure why you act like doubting RJ is a bad thing one post before admitting that you doubt RJ.

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Originally Posted by da_suns_fan

I was shocked that Jefferson opted. I dont think Ive ever been more positive about anything as much as I was that Jefferson was going to collect that 15 million. Especially considering how market value had plummeted last season.

The the Spurs go and sign him for 10 million a year for the next four years?

Are you freaking kidding me?!!!

What did they think other teams would offer him? Who with cap space would want him? The Clippers? The Nets? The Knicks?

Maybe the Knicks, but how much would they offer the guy? I think a player like Jefferson is a 6-7 million player. You would never want to allocate 1/5 of the salary cap to him considering he cant do everything you need from a player at his position (most notably shoot).

And even if the Knicks were to offer Jefferson 10 million, so what? LET THEM HAVE HIM!! Jefferson fucking sucks!

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he was our best choice at SF. our biggest payout MLE was saved for Splitter and not to mention all the retarded paydays that all these average players got didnt helps us any in signing a solid Starting SF with the remainder of our MLE or our LLE. Hell we are having a hard time finding a decent backup SF.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

If you know how you felt, then I'm not sure why you act like doubting RJ is a bad thing one post before admitting that you doubt RJ.

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I didn't say it was bad. I believe that RJ is more likely to improve than not. That leaves a little room for doubt, sure. I'm not going to be so absolutist about it. None of us know what's going to happen this year.

This whole thing started because I was frustrated with people comparing RJ to Bowen and that he was unable to bring what Bruce brought to the table. I thought Elliott would be a more apt comparison (system-wise) since they have a similar set of skills.