Too Many Laws, Too Many Prisoners (article by Economist)

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I agree it has merit, but what merit? What are the reasons? I don't see it as us being tougher than other nations. I see it as indicating we have more people who are morally deficit.

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Even if people ARE more morally deficit, do you conclude that means we have to lock them up?

You should check out the statistics for how many people are locked up for drug use. You and I both agree on legalization/decriminalization of marijuana for good reason. There's thousands incarcerated for marijuana use along with other "soft" drugs such as LSD and ecstasy.

Edit: Also WC, why do you think we are more than twice as morally deficit as the majority of other countries? Is there any studies behind this belief, or is just your opinion?

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Even if people ARE more morally deficit, do you conclude that means we have to lock them up?

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It depends on their crime.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

You should check out the statistics for how many people are locked up for drug use. You and I both agree on legalization/decriminalization of marijuana for good reason. There's thousands incarcerated for marijuana use along with other "soft" drugs such as LSD and ecstasy.

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I agree marijuana should be legalized, and such people serving time released. Seriously though, how many convictions are there that also actually serve time for just marijuana. I don't know about all states. I do know that Arizona used to, and probably still does take a very hard line on marijuana. Most stated don't. As for LCD and Ecstasy, these are dangerous drugs. One can permanently fuck with the mind, the other can cause heart failure.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Edit: Also WC, why do you think we are more than twice as morally deficit as the majority of other countries? Is there any studies behind this belief, or is just your opinion?

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I'm sure there are studies, but I cannot point you to any.

You've been to Europe, right?

Most of the Mediterranean has topless beaches. In Germany, swimming pools are clothing optional. The stigmas we apply to our society breeds ignorance, and uncontrollable lust. They don't have nearly the same level of sex crimes, because it isn't taboo. Same with alcohol. It's not taboo. In Germany, you can drink at the age of 16.

I have reasonable examples in life to say these taboos do more harm than good.

The same goes with our lack of being able to disciple children without going to jail. They fail to learn to be responsible citizens.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

It depends on how you wish to define a lie. In the strictest definition, it was a lie. However, it was thought to be the truth when it was said.

The prominent democrats had access to the same information. Did they lie too?

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It was a lie. No matter if it was democrats or republicans saying it. A lie is a lie is a lie.

And what you thought it was is irrelevant. I always personally thought it was a lie.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I agree marijuana should be legalized, and such people serving time released. Seriously though, how many convictions are there that also actually serve time for just marijuana. I don't know about all states. I do know that Arizona used to, and probably still does take a very hard line on marijuana. Most stated don't. As for LCD and Ecstasy, these are dangerous drugs. One can permanently fuck with the mind, the other can cause heart failure.

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And tobacco can give you cancer, and alcohol can kill you if you drink enough of it.

Why should the government care if someone is dumb enough to do drugs that can harm you?

Do you agree that decriminalizing LSD/ecstasy as well would both increase liberty, save taxpayer money and reduce the size of government?

Also, you know that most drugs weren't even illegal until the early 1900s?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I have reasonable examples in life to say these taboos do more harm than good.

The same goes with our lack of being able to disciple children without going to jail. They fail to learn to be responsible citizens.

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I agree that these taboos may cause more harm than good, but don't think your premise follows. Look at how low Japan is on that list... there are tons of taboos in Japanese society.

Heck, even Singapore jails nearly half the people we do.

I can't wait for the Moral Police... let's throw more people in jail!

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I agree that these taboos may cause more harm than good, but don't think your premise follows. Look at how low Japan is on that list... there are tons of taboos in Japanese society.

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Maybe, just maybe, morality and criminality have very little in common, or nothing in common at all.

Who decides what's morally right and morally wrong?

Does different cultures with different moral values are both right or both wrong?

What's immoral about smoking a joint?

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Heck, even Singapore jails nearly half the people we do.

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True, but they execute 13.57 people per million there. If we killed that may criminals, we would have more than 4,000 less in the jails because of execution, and I'll bet even far less because if its effect as a deterrent.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

And tobacco can give you cancer, and alcohol can kill you if you drink enough of it.

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True, but they don't have the disasterous long term effects as many other drugs do.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Why should the government care if someone is dumb enough to do drugs that can harm you?

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As a tax payer, i don't care, until their actions require socialized care because they can no longer function, or hold a job. If they are so rich, they can have someone take care of them, without tax dollars, i don't give a shit.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Do you agree that decriminalizing LSD/ecstasy as well would both increase liberty, save taxpayer money and reduce the size of government?

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Liberty, yes. However, when that liberty causes someone to depend on tax payer dollars for the rest of their life, it ends up costing more.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Also, you know that most drugs weren't even illegal until the early 1900s?

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Yes, I know. I would like to see some decriminalized. just not all.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I agree that these taboos may cause more harm than good, but don't think your premise follows. Look at how low Japan is on that list... there are tons of taboos in Japanese society.

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True, but Japan also instills their youth with a sense of honor that we don't. This topic doesn't rest on any single reason.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

True, but they execute 13.57 people per million there. If we killed that may criminals, we would have more than 4,000 less in the jails because of execution, and I'll bet even far less because if its effect as a deterrent.

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Do you think 13.57 per million (roughly 1.3 per every hundred thousand) is statistically significant compared to the chart?

They jail roughly 400 per 100,000, we jail about 700-750 per 100,000. Is the threat of execution really preventing 300 less per 100K?

Also, if capital punishment were such an inhibiting factor, why would Texas have such a high incarceration rate?

http://www.november.org/razorwire/rzold/20/20019.html

http://nicic.gov/features/statestats/?state=tx

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The crime rate in Texas is about 18% higher than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 88.7% of the crime rate in Texas which is 19% higher than the national rate. The remaining 13.8% are violent crimes and are about 10% higher than other states. The following graph shows how Texas compared to the rest of the states.

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Texas has a rate 31% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

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At least they're doing one thing right...

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Taxpayers paid 39% lower than the other states per inmate in 2009.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

What's immoral about smoking a joint?

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I would say nothing. However, I'm a lightweight, and cannot smoke a whole joint without being floored. Or maybe, I just get quality Oregon grown shit.

I find a single bong hit all I need of some good bud. I'm often restless, and sometimes it's the only way I get a good sleep.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

True, but they don't have the disasterous long term effects as many other drugs do.

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Wait.. so we're discounting cancer and death as not being disasterous?

You should do more research into ecstasy and LSD etc etc. The possibilities of damage are moderate, roughly the same as being addicted to alcohol/tobacco.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

As a tax payer, i don't care, until their actions require socialized care because they can no longer function, or hold a job. If they are so rich, they can have someone take care of them, without tax dollars, i don't give a shit.

Liberty, yes. However, when that liberty causes someone to depend on tax payer dollars for the rest of their life, it ends up costing more.

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That's two different arguments. Are you going to limit a person's liberty to injure themselves? Your argument would seem to prevent a greal deal of activities that could be potentially threatening.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Yes, I know. I would like to see some decriminalized. just not all.

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I think we're in agreement here, but with a different set of scales. The only drugs I'd keep illegal would be crack, heroin and maybe one or two other drugs on a similar scale.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

True, but Japan also instills their youth with a sense of honor that we don't. This topic doesn't rest on any single reason.

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You seemed to be pinning it all on morality. My mistake.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Also, if capital punishment were such an inhibiting factor, why would Texas have such a high incarceration rate?

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Are they only incarcerating citizens on an island nation, or do they have borders to contend with automatic weapon carrying drug lords too?

As for your other question, YES! I believe knowing the death penalty is probable for certain crimes seriously curtails them.

I believe that at some point, a degree of personal freedom exists that is uncomfortable for some individuals, both for others as well for themselves. Be it guns, drugs, sex, or money, a critical mass of the public needs limits above and beyond what is needed to maintain a stable society in order to feel comfortable. The question for me is what is it about the American character, governance, and society that results in these high incarceration rates vis a vis other Western democracies with highly developed economies?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Are they only incarcerating citizens on an island nation, or do they have borders to contend with automatic weapon carrying drug lords too?

As for your other question, YES! I believe knowing the death penalty is probable for certain crimes seriously curtails them.

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Your implication was that capital punishment might deter criminals. Whether the people are illegal or not doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether capital punishment would deter them.

In various studies, states that have capital punishment have not shown a correlation to lowered criminal activity. For instance, Alabama executes people.

What's their crime rate, you ask?

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The crime rate in Alabama is about 19% higher than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 90% of the crime rate in Alabama which is 21% higher than the national rate. The remaining 12.4% are violent crimes and are about 0% lower than other states. The following graph shows how Alabama compared to the rest of the states.

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Alabama has a rate 30% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

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Let's not limit it to southern states though. How about Virginia?

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The crime rate in Virginia is about 24% lower than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 90.8% of the crime rate in Virginia which is 22% lower than the national rate. The remaining 7% are violent crimes and are about 44% lower than other states. The following graph shows how Virginia compared to the rest of the states.

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Well, the crime rate is lower. However...

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Virginia has a rate 8% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

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Last but not least, Missouri.

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The crime rate in Missouri is about 12% higher than the national average rate. Property crimes account for around 87.9% of the crime rate in Missouri which is 12% higher than the national rate. The remaining 13.7% are violent crimes and are about 10% higher than other states. The following graph shows how Missouri compared to the rest of the states.

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Missouri has a rate 13% higher than than the national average of incarcerated adults per 100,000.

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In each of these states, the incarceration rate is higher despite allowing capital punishment. In 3 of the four, the crime rate was higher as well.

If capital punishment led to less crime, why isn't that reflected? If capital punishment led to less incarceration, why isn't that reflected?

Edit: Information gathered from this link: http://nicic.gov/features/statestats/?state=al

I have a solution:

Inmates with non-violent offenses (Peronsal drug possession, embezzling, fraud, DUI w/out causing public damage, etc) should be made to work on interstate infrastructure projects and other hard labour to make this country better. They are useless sitting in prison.

Inmates with violent history, which are CLEARLY unable to be rehabed (although most people to too pussy to acknowledge that some apples are just BAD), should be outfitted with internal tracking devices and dropped into the Pakistan mountains to do whatever the fuck they want except for coming back to the US.

PS: There needs to be the same "customer service is first" mentality at Court Houses that you'd find at a grocery store. Soooo many of the dumb fucks that work Downtown are only there cuz they knew someone that hired them and they take their jobs for granted and aren't helpful or prompt with taking care of shit. Fix the personnel and have standards!

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

I believe that at some point, a degree of personal freedom exists that is uncomfortable for some individuals, both for others as well for themselves. Be it guns, drugs, sex, or money, a critical mass of the public needs limits above and beyond what is needed to maintain a stable society in order to feel comfortable. The question for me is what is it about the American character, governance, and society that results in these high incarceration rates vis a vis other Western democracies with highly developed economies?

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Inflated superiorty complex. We are taught and led to believe we are better than everyone else, that this is the apex of the civilized world as we know it.

With that sort of pressure, and our very non-secular inhabitants when compared to other developed nations, you get moralilty laws that expect a different and higher standard from Americans by Americans.

IMO, its two things, a residual effect of religion in our country and a means for the powerful to control the powerless.

So long as everything is illegal, everyone can be considered a criminal.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Inflated superiorty complex. We are taught and led to believe we are better than everyone else, that this is the apex of the civilized world as we know it.

With that sort of pressure, and our very non-secular inhabitants when compared to other developed nations, you get moralilty laws that expect a different and higher standard from Americans by Americans.

IMO, its two things, a residual effect of religion in our country and a means for the powerful to control the powerless.

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Considerably plausible. Individual liberty is not self-directed and open-ended so long as you respect the liberty of others, but rather available if you behave according to an artificial code of behavior, which, of course, is not liberty at all.

There is definitely a strong religious component to it, as if salvation is offered through the law, or that a Heaven on Earth can be created. I'd also say it's an outgrowth of the reaction to the rapid rise in immigration in the late 19th and early 20th century, when a focus on "Americanization" was all the rage. That set the stage for the formation of the ideal American, by law. And the two major wars of the Twentieth Century, as well as the extended Cold War reinforced the notion of circumscribing individual liberty in the face of the national interest. And a large military conditions a large part of the citizenry to a regimented, subservient lifestyle.

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So long as everything is illegal, everyone can be considered a criminal.

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Yes.

In return for this degree of behavior control and modification through the law, Americans have been promised prosperity, security, and prestige. Play along and you'll live well. The payoff in this utopia is material consumption. The Cold War rivalry of managerial capitalism versus statist communism demanded that Americans live well. So over time American institutions were shaped to encourage rampant consumption. The financialization and globalization of the American economy occurred in the pursuit of the materialist earthly Heaven.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Your implication was that capital punishment might deter criminals. Whether the people are illegal or not doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether capital punishment would deter them.
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There are so many factors. For one, if these people were actually executed shortly after their conviction, like in other countries. What about unreported crimes? What about the severity of punishment? Remember the caining of the US citizen in Singapore those years back? What about better forensics to prove a case. There are dozens of things we do different which change these numbers. Now in lower crime rate cities like mine, there is a real high crime. Just that the police and investigators do nothing except file reports basically to nowhere, unless it is a big crime. People here have stopped reporting lesser crimes.

WC,

There is no arguing that the United States imprisons more of its citizens relative to all other developed nations (put the developed cavéat in there as to exclude China...theyre not honest about anything they report).

I really dont know what straw youre grasping at here. Your country, our country, imprisons its people indiscriminately for non-violent "crimes".

If you dont believe the premise, then I ask why? Is it because you dont want to believe our great country is something less than that? Why so defensive about a truism?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Now in lower crime rate cities like mine, there is a real high crime. Just that the police and investigators do nothing except file reports basically to nowhere, unless it is a big crime. People here have stopped reporting lesser crimes.

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Sure, when everyone's a criminal, the selection of who is prosecuted is selective and arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

I really dont know what straw youre grasping at here. Your country, our country, imprisons its people indiscriminately for non-violent "crimes".

If you dont believe the premise, then I ask why? Is it because you dont want to believe our great country is something less than that? Why so defensive about a truism?

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It seems to be wrapped up in the notion of American exceptionalism, that as the arsenal of democracy, the state could never err and become overbearing and abusive in its own right. Admitting there are fundamental problems with American government, in particular its law enforcement function, which deprive many Americans needlessly of their liberty, is heresy to the American greatness religion. Or, somehow the military and law enforcement functions of the federal government are beyond reproach. It's just commie black dudes who get elected to federal office who are the real threat.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

There are so many factors. For one, if these people were actually executed shortly after their conviction, like in other countries. What about unreported crimes? What about the severity of punishment? Remember the caining of the US citizen in Singapore those years back? What about better forensics to prove a case. There are dozens of things we do different which change these numbers. Now in lower crime rate cities like mine, there is a real high crime. Just that the police and investigators do nothing except file reports basically to nowhere, unless it is a big crime. People here have stopped reporting lesser crimes.

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So, you mean there are other factors then "America isn't moral" at play, like I said originally?

Will you admit that your feeling that capital punishment is an effective deterrent has no factual basis, as it shows no correlation to a lowered crime rate OR incarceration statistics?

As DR said, America jails more citizens than any other developed nation on the world. Don't you think there might be something behind that? Perhaps it's the prison lobbyists which lobby against any drug legalization because they know it means less money for them?

You often argue that the government finds ways to keep itself around and make itself larger. Aren't you willing to apply that same criteria to our law enforcement and jailers?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Who decides what's morally right and morally wrong?

Does different cultures with different moral values are both right or both wrong?

What's immoral about smoking a joint?

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The same thing that makes it ultimately immoral to buy "blood diamonds" whose initial purchase is used to fund some of the hideously evil "child armies" in Africa.

One has to consider the source of the joint, to fully consider the morality of the act.