Too Many Laws, Too Many Prisoners (article by Economist)

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Sure, when everyone's a criminal, the selection of who is prosecuted is selective and arbitrary.

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Essentially.

How else can one explain the disparity between power cocaine penalties and that of crack cocaine?

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The same thing that makes it ultimately immoral to buy "blood diamonds" whose initial purchase is used to fund some of the hideously evil "child armies" in Africa.

One has to consider the source of the joint, to fully consider the morality of the act.

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Is that like buying organic?

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The same thing that makes it ultimately immoral to buy "blood diamonds" whose initial purchase is used to fund some of the hideously evil "child armies" in Africa.

One has to consider the source of the joint, to fully consider the morality of the act.

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An interesting argument but one I think that fails, or at least needs clarification.

First off, there's a difference between the act of "smoking pot" and the act of "purchasing pot from a drug dealer". I'll assume you're only referring to the act of purchasing.

Given that distinction, we can then ask if we truly know the source of purchased marijuana. If you're purchasing from someone on the corner who sells all kinds of drugs to children, sure, that's definitely morally shady. However, there may be a local dealer who grows pot locally and sells it. In that case, the source seems to have no moral failings, and so the buyer experiences no moral hazards.

Additionally, if we were forced to examine the source of everything we consume, the only truly "moral" way to live would probably be on a farm somewhere. From factories in China to slaughterhouses for McDonald's, we sacrifice some of our morals, some of our authenticity, for modernity.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

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I've already brought up legalizing and taxing "soft" drugs. That's a good first step.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Essentially.

How else can one explain the disparity between power cocaine penalties and that of crack cocaine?

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Power cocaine? That sounds like a video game powerup :)

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Power cocaine? That sounds like a video game powerup :)

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I knew that had to be some good shit that Pacman was downing if all of a sudden he could go eat ghosts.

power cocaine > crack pipe

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

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Non-violent drug offenses.
Non-violent administrative violations (ie not filling out the proper paperwork, but not probation violations for released violent offenders).

Would seem to be a good place to start. And jailing someone for a failure to appear on a traffic violation seems a bit much.

Of course, who knows how many potential criminal violations lurk in the US Code?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Here's a question. Which laws would you appear that would reduce the prison populations to acceptable levels?

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All crimes which have no direct victims. Politicians are infamous for showing some abstract and arbitrary impact a certain crime has on the community.

In reality, its a method of control and revenue.

I dont pretend to know what direction things seem to be going, but instead of using the past 4 years, lets use the last 30 years.

This article is 10 years old

The incarceration rate has increased 7 fold since 1970 (from an article in 2000). Lets assume (since I am far too lazy to do the google search) that the rate has leveled of since 2000, in that it hasnt gone up or down.

So, we're still stuck with 690 inmates per 100,000 people.

So, we should expect that ratio to only rise as laws become more encompassing and people have less and less "sense" for what is illegal. Listen to the judge in the OP's story, he straight-up said to the interviewer/reader "Youve committed a Federal crime already, you just dont know it."

By the year 2040, with a marginal increase in the incarceration rate of 3x, we should see a jump to 2070 inmates per 100,000 people.

That would mean 2.07% of the population is currently a felon.

Thats astonishing and complete bullshit. When you, as a country, are jailing that many people, its time to stop analyzing people and start looking at your laws.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

All crimes which have no direct victims.

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Better said.

When copyright infringement has higher penalties than statutory rape you need to realize there's a problem.

Administrative crimes are those against the state, or public. Americans do seem adept at creating those kind of offenses.

Drug crimes would then be crimes first and foremost against yourself. Then perhaps your family, and then 'the public.'

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Originally Posted by ElNono

When copyright infringement has higher penalties than statutory rape you need to realize there's a problem.

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I think that shows who's boss.

Or, just 'victimless crimes.' The probability that the crime is nothing more than an attempt at behavior modification is high without a victim.

BTW, I fucked up my math and forgot to move the decimal point in a percentage (didnt look right to me to begin with).

Currently, 0.69% of the population is in prison/long term jail. This number does not include those on parole, probation or otherwise "in the system".

Projecting a modest rise of the incarceration rate (3 fold), by the year 2040, 2.07% of the population will be in prison.

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I think that's too low.

Of course, the counter is that eventually the population is so well trained to shudder at the thought of offending the state for fear of imprisonment that there is no longer the need to lock up as many.

Texas prison population actually went down last year, but I'll bet that has more to do with the impending revenue shortfall than anything else.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I've already brought up legalizing and taxing "soft" drugs. That's a good first step.

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But that not why people are in jails by such counts. most are slapped on the wrists, unless they are big dealers. Even then, they are usually only in jail if the used weapons against the police during arrests. not because of the drugs them self.

I say the problem stems from having too many morally deficient people. Not because of too many laws.

But yes, I want to see our laws cleaned up. We do have too many. I just won't blame incarceration rates over it.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

But that not why people are in jails by such counts. most are slapped on the wrists, unless they are big dealers. Even then, they are usually only in jail if the used weapons against the police during arrests. not because of the drugs them self.

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Methinks this is a personal opinion of yours, and not one based on actual statistics. Am I correct?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I say the problem stems from having too many morally deficient people. Not because of too many laws.

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You yourself stated that there are multiple factors, correct? So just having morally deficient people doesn't explain it.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

But yes, I want to see our laws cleaned up. We do have too many. I just won't blame incarceration rates over it.

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No one is "blaming" incarceration rates. The rates are what they are. What we're doing is going over WHY they are so high, and whether there's a way to fix it.

However, you merely seem to think that America is exceptionally unique among all countries in its depravity. Given this theory of yours, perhaps you would like to suggest a means to reduce the prison population? Which laws would you do away with, for instance?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Texas prison population actually went down last year, but I'll bet that has more to do with the impending revenue shortfall than anything else.

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A safe bet IMO.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

There could be several reasons for the chart as it is. Maybe we don't kill as many criminals as other places. maybe we have more criminal illegal aliens to deal with because we have no effective border control. Maybe we allow kids in school to be disrespectful asses, and they become worse as adults.

A single statistic is meaningless without knowing more.

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Maybe our prisons are privately owned, and they are paying judges to send them prisoners?

Oh wait http://www.timesleader.com/news/Cona...7-23-2010.html

We need less laws, not more.

I feel that whoever intentionally does something that hurts someone else are our worst criminals.

After that, you have those whose selfish actions unintentionally hurt someone else.

Both should have to pay a price.

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Originally Posted by ducks

a bullet would fix the problem

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do not pretend you are not guilty.

for a bullet may one day have your name on it.

sit up straight ducks...it's time. :toast