Only Two Other Teams Have Been This Good, This Long

Face it... Spurs fans are spoiled. But most of them don't realize just how spoiled they are. The team has had 13 consecutive seasons with season records above .600, during which time they have won 4 NBA Championships. But just how good is that? Good enought that only two teams in modern NBA history have approached the Spurs' record of being that good for that long, without a re-building period.

Most "normal" teams go through cycles of boom and bust - playoff years and rebuilding years. Why? Teams that are very successful for a number of years suffer a tremendous penalty in terms of the inflow of new talent, due to consistently low positions in consecutive drafts. Without that influx of new, comparitively cheap talent, those teams are forced to pay a higher price for veteran players in order to retain their top-tier status. When you throw in the salary cap, which makes it impossible for them to hire all the top-tier, expensive veteran talent they want, it becomes virtually impossible for any sports team to remain a contender for an extended period of time.

The rules were created that way on purpose, to try and spread the talent, and therefore success, around the league. Teams rise and fall. The better organizations spend fewer years re-building, as well as going longer in between re-building periods. But the process is inevitible. The Spurs have defied the odds in a way that relatively few of their fans even comprehend.

So how about those other teams who did the same?

The Larry Bird era Celtics went 13 consecutive seasons without re-building, and won 3 titles - although they did have one season below .600, when Bird was injured. So how long did it take them to re-build? The Celtics were only in rebuilding mode for two years before they drafted Bird. But when the Larry Bird dynasty was over, the Celtics endured a span of 14 seasons where they only rose above .500 three times.

The Magic Johnson era Lakers had 12 consecutive seasons above .600, during which time they won 5 titles. Their subsequent re-building effort was prolonged by Magic Johnson's return, which made them just good enough to move far down in several drafts. As a result, the Lakers' greatness did not recover for 7 seasons. And the only reson it happened that soon was because Kobe Bryant refused to play for any other team, and essentially extorted a trade from Charlotte to Los Angeles. The Lakers didn't re-build from the draft, like other teams. They rebuilt by being a desirable large market, and from the fact that Charlotte's ownership couldn't afford to wait him out. And it's worth noting that even with Kobe Bryant as their superstar, the Lakers were forced to rebuild, enduring three consecutive seasons with records of .415, .549, and .512 before another infamous trade (Pau Gasol), in addition to their draft picks, made them contenders once again.

The Bill Russell Celtics had 12 consecutive seasons above .600, and a 13th with a .585 record, in which they won another championship. But that dynasty occurred before the modern CBA and salary cap. It was the most dominant dynasty ever, but who can say if they could have kept that team together under a salary cap, and with free-agency? Michael Jordan's Bulls had 9 consecutive seasons in which they fell below .600 just once. (Discounting the two seasons he played baseball.) The Bulls had been "rebuilding" for 12 years before drafting Jordan, and have been rebuilding for 12 years since he retired.

It's no coincidence that the Spurs almost unrivalled success parallels the career of Tim Duncan. He was a dynasty looking for a place to happen. However, as the Cleveland Cavaliers have recently proven, it takes more than a superstar to build a dynasty that continues for more than a decade. The Spurs' ownership and management deserve a great deal of credit for providing the continuity that has made this team one of the three great dynasties of the modern era in the NBA.

So would the Spurs have been better off to tank a couple of seasons, in order to refresh their talent pool through the draft? I don't know. Ask the Boston Celtics - Ryan Gomes publicly said that's what they did a few years ago, and it certainly looked that way. And it appears to have worked for the Celtics, as they were able to put together the pieces for a championship, and a couple of deep playoff runs. And there is no question that it was the Spurs' 20-62 season in 96-97 that led to their incredible success over the following 13 seasons (and counting). But make no mistake: sooner or later, the Spurs have to re-load. No matter how good the FO is at spotting cheap talent, there will be a continual erosion until they get a fresh infusion from the draft. The rules are designed to make sure of that.

It's a privilege to be a Spurs fan, no doubt about it! I have to remind myself not to take for granted being in the playoff hunt year in and year out.

The Mavericks aren't too far behind in cosecutive 50 win seasons without rebuilding, but they have nothing to show for it *snicker*

Great post, with one exception, noted below. The San Antonio Spurs with 4 titles and only 4 seasons missing the playoffs are no worse than the 4th best franchise n NBA history, while only playing in just over half of it.

Now, to correct revisionist history:

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Originally Posted by GSH

And the only reson it happened that soon was because Kobe Bryant refused to play for any other team, and essentially extorted a trade from Charlotte to Los Angeles. The Lakers didn't re-build from the draft, like other teams. They rebuilt by being a desirable large market, and from the fact that Charlotte's ownership couldn't afford to wait him out.

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I already cleaned MiamiHeat's clock on this, see the links in my signature. Essentially, Charlotte was in need of a big man, and would have taken one in the 1996 draft. However, the Lakers had Shaq in their sites for one, so trading Divac cleared the cap space. Jerry West also wanted Kobe Bryant. The condition of trading Divac was that Charlotte then draft Kobe Bryant, if he was available, and trade him to LA for Divac. Charlotte was willing to do this for two reasons:

1) It got O'Neal out of the east.
2) Divac was better than any big available in the draft, and they needed a center.

There never was a question if Kobe would play for Charlotte, or any other team for that matter. He was drafted with the intent that completed a pre-draft deal. Once drafted, he was Lakers bound. The only hang up was Divac threatened to retire. That lasted a weekend and he agreed to be traded.

Once again, great post!

Its true! a lot of spurs fans are spoiled as it is evident on this forum. Sometimes it makes me sick when i read some of the crap some people put on here. But thats what being a fan is all about, staying by your team no matter what! Even not sweating the negativeness! I will defend my team till the day I die! All you hater spurs fans dont know how good you have it!

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Originally Posted by GSH

So would the Spurs have been better off to tank a couple of seasons, in order to refresh their talent pool through the draft? I don't know.

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A Tim Duncan-led team couldn't tank badly enough to miss the playoffs in the absence of obvious malfeasance.

That was never a realistic option (even assumming there might have been any reason for it in the first place).

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Originally Posted by Daddy_Of_All_Trolls

I already cleaned MiamiHeat's clock on this, see the links in my signature. Essentially, Charlotte was in need of a big man, and would have taken one in the 1996 draft. However, the Lakers had Shaq in their sites for one, so trading Divac cleared the cap space. Jerry West also wanted Kobe Bryant. The condition of trading Divac was that Charlotte then draft Kobe Bryant, if he was available, and trade him to LA for Divac. Charlotte was willing to do this for two reasons:

1) It got O'Neal out of the east.
2) Divac was better than any big available in the draft, and they needed a center.

There never was a question if Kobe would play for Charlotte, or any other team for that matter. He was drafted with the intent that completed a pre-draft deal. Once drafted, he was Lakers bound. The only hang up was Divac threatened to retire. That lasted a weekend and he agreed to be traded.

Once again, great post!

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Kobe was a steal by Jerry West. Shaq, however, was a gift to the Lakers. According to Shaq's contract in Orlando, he was supposed to be a restricted FA in the summer of 1996. However, restricted free agency itself somehow vanished from the entire NBA just for that summer, allowing the Lakers to sign him to a max contract without giving Orlando the opportunity to match.

Now, it's not a given that Orlando would have matched that contract, but if they had, the Lakers are working on 22 years without a title, and Orlando would've given the Bulls some problems and the Magic maybe even wins the 1999 title.

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Originally Posted by Daddy_Of_All_Trolls

Great post, with one exception, noted below. The San Antonio Spurs with 4 titles and only 4 seasons missing the playoffs are no worse than the 4th best franchise n NBA history, while only playing in just over half of it.

Now, to correct revisionist history:



I already cleaned MiamiHeat's clock on this, see the links in my signature. Essentially, Charlotte was in need of a big man, and would have taken one in the 1996 draft. However, the Lakers had Shaq in their sites for one, so trading Divac cleared the cap space. Jerry West also wanted Kobe Bryant. The condition of trading Divac was that Charlotte then draft Kobe Bryant, if he was available, and trade him to LA for Divac. Charlotte was willing to do this for two reasons:

1) It got O'Neal out of the east.
2) Divac was better than any big available in the draft, and they needed a center.

There never was a question if Kobe would play for Charlotte, or any other team for that matter. He was drafted with the intent that completed a pre-draft deal. Once drafted, he was Lakers bound. The only hang up was Divac threatened to retire. That lasted a weekend and he agreed to be traded.

Once again, great post!

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1. You picked a good name
2. It's not about best franchises. It's about how long teams have gone without having to rebuild.
3. I used some shorthand for the Kobe incident. But you are spouting the Disney version of what really happened.

This much you can verify with 100% certainty: within hours of the draft, Kobe announced that he would never play for the Hornets, and that he wanted only to play for the Lakers. So let me ask you this. If there was a pre-arranged deal between Charlotte and Los Angeles, why did Kobe make those statements? I'll answer that for you, too - he wouldn't have. He would have known that he was on his way to the Lakers, and would have had no need to issue an ultimatim to the Hornets.

Some teams were reluctant to draft Kobe because he was coming straight out of high school, but there were a number of teams that were very interested in taking him in the draft. Even though Kobe was 17 years old, he was already a seasoned celebrity. After his private workout with the Lakers, and being wined and dined by Jerry West, he had made it very clear that he had no intention of playing anywhere other than Los Angeles. Several of the early teams in the draft got the message that drafting a 17 year-old that would refuse to play for them would not be the best use of a draft pick. (You can look it up, but it's a lot harder to find than it used to be. It's one of the things that the NBA has "sanatized" from the Internet, along with the Kermit Washington punch of Rudy T, and a few other unpleasant memories.)

I don't know whose clock you think you cleaned about that deal, but you were wrong. Lakers fans act like only Jerry West recognized how good Kobe was. That's a ridiculous fairy tale. Charlotte did the same thing that the T-Wolves did with Ricky Rubio, and Milwaukee did with Yi Jianlian - they picked a player that they knew did not want to play for them. The difference is that those two teams vowed to play hardball, and force their picks to play for them. Charlotte's ownership couldn't afford to attempt that.

Charlotte didn't even get a pick along with Vlade Divac. (The Lakers were able to draft Derek Fisher with their first pick that year.) Why? Because they had no leverage. They couldn't threaten to trade Kobe to some other team, because he was making it very clear that he would not play anyplace else. They couldn't threaten to keep Kobe for that same reason. In the end, they got Vlade, who took a 2-year vacation and then went right back to the Lakers.

Before you think about trying to "clean my clock" on the subject, take some time to research it. I was very aware of the negotiations at the time they were going on. There is zero doubt. It would have been the same for any team that had drafted Kobe, other than the Lakers.

I was living in China when kobe came in the league and never really heard what happened till coming back in 2001, just that kobe made an ultimatum and west pulled a fast one on charlotte.

so I'm curious... how much hype was there behind kobe? was his ultimatum big news? draw criticism? if it was a prearranged trade, why didnt charlotte ask for more, or check divac would play for them at least? any great players charlotte passed up on later in the draft? seems to me that, much like the gasol trade, the only way you can explain this without a little treachery is exceptional incompetence by the other teams GMs. in this kobe scenario, the fact that kobe wasnt taken higher does give some credence to that possibility, even if he was the first straight from HS guard.

The reason we have been so good for so long is because we defy the general idea that you can't build and maintain a Dynasty or a Championship Contender on anything other than lottery talent. That talent you draft in late 1st and early 2nd don't usually turn out to be great players that can peform in the Playoffs and become the cornerstone of your team. That the core of your franchise must be built upon lottery talent.

But if you have a A+ Front Office, like we do, has a GM who knows talent and knows what he is doing, like we do, you can actually continually maintain that franchise by picking talent you know will complement your core, will stay with your team to help that core, and eventually develop into a cornerstone type player that eventually develops into a type of player that can become apart of the same core he once played off of and complemented.

The trick is to draft talent that won't merely peak as a roleplayer and then leave to another team come free agency for a bigger contract.

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili are pretty much the absolute perfect examples of this. Players that were drafted as roleplayers, but didn't merely peak as a roleplayers, but grew into playoff performers who can become a cornerstone of the Franchise. Now can George Hill and Tiago Splitter do the same thing? That, we will have to wait and see.

Now will mistakes and screw ups happen? Of course. Sometimes you will give up a Luis Scola or Gorgan Dragic, but if you can start with a franchise lottery talent like Tim Duncan, and then continually build and maintain your franchise by drafting late 1st/early 2nd round talent that HAVE THE TALENT AND ABILITY to build into more than just a roleplayer and into a cornerstone, then you can have a dynasty.

I guess the real problem is, how far does your team drop once one of those franchise cornerstone type players retire or leave. Those players can't be the centerpiece or a too valuable piece of your team once they come down to the tail-end of their careers and retire. David Robinson and Sean Elliott were merely roleplayers once they choose to retire, and thus our franchise didn't complete shatter and collapse once they left.

Now the question is, how will our team do once Timmy chooses to retire in probably 2012. If he were to retire today, our franchise would completely crumble, because he is our only post presence offensively and defensively, and would be nothing without him. Now, would this still be true come 2012? Hopefully by then Tiago, Hill, Blair and I guess any other talent we might draft by then would be good enough to keep this thing going once Timmy is gone, which would be a big stretch if Tony isn't still here and still kicking it on a high level by then. Manu can only go for so much longer, and who knows whats going to turn out with RJ.

So I guess thats kinda my take on this whole Franchise/Dynasty thing. Sorry for the long post, haha. Anyways, here's to our Dynasty! GO SPURS GO! :toast

:flag::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt2::flag:

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Originally Posted by GSH

1. You picked a good name
2. It's not about best franchises. It's about how long teams have gone without having to rebuild.
3. I used some shorthand for the Kobe incident. But you are spouting the Disney version of what really happened.

This much you can verify with 100% certainty: within hours of the draft, Kobe announced that he would never play for the Hornets, and that he wanted only to play for the Lakers. So let me ask you this. If there was a pre-arranged deal between Charlotte and Los Angeles, why did Kobe make those statements? I'll answer that for you, too - he wouldn't have. He would have known that he was on his way to the Lakers, and would have had no need to issue an ultimatim to the Hornets.

Some teams were reluctant to draft Kobe because he was coming straight out of high school, but there were a number of teams that were very interested in taking him in the draft. Even though Kobe was 17 years old, he was already a seasoned celebrity. After his private workout with the Lakers, and being wined and dined by Jerry West, he had made it very clear that he had no intention of playing anywhere other than Los Angeles. Several of the early teams in the draft got the message that drafting a 17 year-old that would refuse to play for them would not be the best use of a draft pick. (You can look it up, but it's a lot harder to find than it used to be. It's one of the things that the NBA has "sanatized" from the Internet, along with the Kermit Washington punch of Rudy T, and a few other unpleasant memories.)

I don't know whose clock you think you cleaned about that deal, but you were wrong. Lakers fans act like only Jerry West recognized how good Kobe was. That's a ridiculous fairy tale. Charlotte did the same thing that the T-Wolves did with Ricky Rubio, and Milwaukee did with Yi Jianlian - they picked a player that they knew did not want to play for them. The difference is that those two teams vowed to play hardball, and force their picks to play for them. Charlotte's ownership couldn't afford to attempt that.

Charlotte didn't even get a pick along with Vlade Divac. (The Lakers were able to draft Derek Fisher with their first pick that year.) Why? Because they had no leverage. They couldn't threaten to trade Kobe to some other team, because he was making it very clear that he would not play anyplace else. They couldn't threaten to keep Kobe for that same reason. In the end, they got Vlade, who took a 2-year vacation and then went right back to the Lakers.

Before you think about trying to "clean my clock" on the subject, take some time to research it. I was very aware of the negotiations at the time they were going on. There is zero doubt. It would have been the same for any team that had drafted Kobe, other than the Lakers.

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Hmmm, interesting. Let me explain a few more points here.

1) Jerry West wanted to get a higher pick than he had in order to draft Kobe. The best he could do was number 13, from Charlotte.
2) This means no one else who chose ahead of Charlotte would deal with the Lakers.
3) New Jersey wanted to draft Kobe. Jerry called up their GM and said Kobe really wants to play for LA. The New Jersey GM, for whatever reason, drafted someone else. Was it because he knew Kobe wouldn't play for New Jersey, and he would have to trade him? Was it because he was influenced by West and his reputation as "The Logo"? Who knows, it's all speculation without proof, although Jerry did go on record recently and say he thinks it was his reputation.

I'll remind you, Charlotte never planned to play Kobe, he was chosen to complete a pre-draft deal. Could Charlotte have done any better with the Lakers in the deal? We don't know. I do know from experience in negotiating purchase contracts that the first offer is never accepted, a lot of haggling goes on. Give in too quick and you're labeled as a pushover, and your future profits will suck. Just because Charlotte didn't get a first round pick back from LA doesn't man a thing. Perhaps Charlotte wanted more but the counter offer wasn't to their liking. Speculation gets you nowhere. what happened does.

Now, had New Jersey drafted Kobe, and he refused to play and eventually forced a trade to the Lakers, then the argument people try to make that this happened to Charlotte is real, but it's with a team that never drafted him! That's where the claim of revisionist history comes into play. People state untruths and those that read, believe. Look at the post in this thread above mine from diego. Although I posted the truth, he believes that the Lakers screwed Charlotte!

Now, why did Kobe come out and say hours after the draft he would never play for Charlotte? I can't answer. Certainly he knew the Lakers had a deal in place for him. Maybe he was just young and spoke against his agent's advice. Maybe it's because he hoped to influence Divac not to retire so the deal would be done. I don't know, and until the people involved come forward and say, no one knows, it's all useless speculation. However, there is evidence of a pre-arranged deal between the Lakers and Charlotte to trade Divac for Kobe and both sides admit that! That's on record and the proof is airtight.

Here's the Hornets' side of the deal: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121005

You're a good poster and I don't troll good posters. The truth is out there and no matter what people think of Kobe he didn't force a trade from Charlotte to the Lakers. The only way that would have happened is of Charlotte wanted Kobe, and not Divac. However, the opposite is the truth, the hornets wanted Divac and made a deal to get him!

Oh, Divac went on to Sacramento. He didn't go back to LA until his final year which I believed he missed due to a back injury, 2004-05.

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Originally Posted by diego

I was living in China when kobe came in the league and never really heard what happened till coming back in 2001, just that kobe made an ultimatum and west pulled a fast one on charlotte.

so I'm curious... how much hype was there behind kobe? was his ultimatum big news? draw criticism? if it was a prearranged trade, why didnt charlotte ask for more, or check divac would play for them at least? any great players charlotte passed up on later in the draft? seems to me that, much like the gasol trade, the only way you can explain this without a little treachery is exceptional incompetence by the other teams GMs. in this kobe scenario, the fact that kobe wasnt taken higher does give some credence to that possibility, even if he was the first straight from HS guard.

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See my posts. you have been misled by revisionist history. Kobe and the Lakers did not screw Charlotte, he was drafted in a pre-arranged deal to trade for Vlade Divac.

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2...-misconstrued/

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CHARLOTTE - Revisionist history is always fascinating.

It's not always accurate, but it's fascinating.

The Charlotte Hornets drafted Kobe Bryant with the 13th pick in the 1996 NBA Draft and promptly traded him to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.

Over the years, that story has been told, retold and embellished so much that the reality of that trade and the current perception are farther apart than, oh, Charlotte and Los Angeles. It's a timely topic because throughout this year's NBA Finals between the Lakers and Boston Celtics, we've heard all the revisionist history again. We've heard how Kobe and his agent shunned the Hornets, threatened that Kobe wouldn't play for the Hornets, and therefore orchestrated the trade to the Lakers. There has been more talk in Charlotte about Kobe and the Hornets the past two weeks than there has been about anything concerning the Bobcats.

A look back into the archives shows that the notion that Kobe orchestrated the trade is bogus.

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Nice post, GSH. :toast

We are the most fortunate small-town team fanbase in NBA history, no doubt. First David to create the right culture for continued success (he carried very average teams for a decade while setting the best possible example as a basketballer and a man), then Tim, Pop and RC to lead the franchise to 4 titles... yup, we're spoiled. ;)

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Originally Posted by diego

I was living in China when kobe came in the league and never really heard what happened till coming back in 2001, just that kobe made an ultimatum and west pulled a fast one on charlotte.

so I'm curious... how much hype was there behind kobe? was his ultimatum big news? draw criticism? if it was a prearranged trade, why didnt charlotte ask for more, or check divac would play for them at least? any great players charlotte passed up on later in the draft? seems to me that, much like the gasol trade, the only way you can explain this without a little treachery is exceptional incompetence by the other teams GMs. in this kobe scenario, the fact that kobe wasnt taken higher does give some credence to that possibility, even if he was the first straight from HS guard.

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The stories you read now differ a lot from the facts on the record at the time it all happened. Lakers fans like to believe that Jerry West is the only GM to recognize Kobe's potential. Bob Bass doesn't want to be remembered for making the worst trade in history. The league doesn't like any sort of appearance of impropriety or collusion. But if you can find any of the old news stories and interviews, it's absolutely clear that a lot of teams were put off by Kobe's threats before the draft. And it's also clear that the Hornets got railroaded into trading Kobe for less than he was worth, even if they did draft him with the intention of trading him.

The hype over Kobe was huge. He had surpassed several of Wilt Chamberlain's high school records (in Pennsylvania, I think). He was a McDonald's All American, he won the Naismith and the Gatorade high school player of the year awards. He took a famous pop singer to his high school prom. Like I said before - he was a polished celebrity by the time he graduated. The hype may not have been as big as it was for LeBron, but the whole idea of following high school players wasn't as developed at that time.

Did Charlotte pass up any good players? Peja, Steve Nash, and Jermaine O'neal were three of the next four chosen. There is a myth that the Lakers had made a deal with Charlotte ahead of time, but didn't tell them who to pick until a few minutes before it was their turn to pick. But if Kobe was who they wanted, why would they have agreed to trade Divac without knowing for sure that Kobe would still be available? Does that mean that the Lakers were willing to trade their 7-foot center for "whoever was available at the 13th spot"? I don't think so.

There is a lot of revisionist history about the deal, including some from the Hornet's management who don't want to look like idiots. But here are some things that are undisputable facts:
1. The Hornets invited Kobe to work out for them, but he refused. Kobe's agent wouldn't even let them schedule a private meeting to talk with him.
2. The New Jersey Nets absolutely wanted Kobe, but were warned off by his agent, who told them that he would only play for the Lakers. They (the Nets) were told that Kobe would go play in Italy for a year, and then re-enter the draft, rather than play anywhere but LA.
3. The Lakers couldn't have had an advance deal with the Hornets, because there was no way of knowing that someone else would not draft him first.
4. Divac didn't want any part of Charlotte, and said that he would retire rather than be traded. Days after the draft, he was telling people that he was going back to Yugoslavia. The trade clearly wasn't a lock at that point.
5. Several days after the draft, Bob Bass was talking publicly about how good Kobe was, like he was going to be part of the Hornet's team. Someone asked Kobe's agent if he would be playing in Charlotte, and he said that was an "impossibility" - that Kobe would only play in Los Angeles.
6. Vlade was coming off a season where his numbers had dropped. He had lost minutes to Elden Campbell, and he absolutely sucked in the playoffs, as the Lakers were getting thrashed by the Rockets. Vlade was anything but a hot commodity at that point in time. Not to mention the fact that Charlotte had a 7-foot center whose numbers were almost identical to Vlade's the previous season.

It took 13 days to complete the trade. Obviously it wasn't a done deal on the night of the draft. During those 13 days, Charlotte tried to negotiate a better deal from the Lakers. But the Hornets had no leverage (as I already mentioned) because Kobe and his agent made it clear that he would not play anywhere else. So even if you believe that Charlotte always intended to trade Kobe to the Lakers, it's pretty obvious that the terms of the deal were not settled when they drafted him. They should have been able to get more than just Vlade for him. Kobe extorted the trade, and the Lakers extorted the terms. The Hornets never had a chance.

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Originally Posted by Daddy_Of_All_Trolls

See my posts. you have been misled by revisionist history. Kobe and the Lakers did not screw Charlotte, he was drafted in a pre-arranged deal to trade for Vlade Divac.

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My original point was that Los Angeles didn't re-build from the draft like other teams. They re-built by being a being a high-profile market that enticed Kobe to shun all other offers. Are you disputing that much? There is no question that Kobe and his agent manipulated the draft. And there is no question that neither intended for him to play any place other than Los Angeles - they were very open about that. Whether Charlotte got screwed or not, there is no question that LA's re-building was helped more by Kobe's insistence on playing there than by West's genius as a GM. Can we agree on that much?

As for the trade with Charlotte? I was following the deal as it was happening because I was doing some consulting work for a company that was one of their sponsors. I don't have any inside information but I watched things develop real-time. Consider what I'm saying, and try to find some of the old news articles before you jump to conclusions:


Kobe and his agent scared off as many teams as they could before the draft. That much is indisputable, since they weren't shy about it. And there is too much record of Kobe refusing to work out for teams, etc.

There was talk between LA and Charlotte before the draft. LA put Vlade on the table, but Charlotte never believed that was all they would get in exchange.

After the draft, Charlotte (Bob Bass) was considering keeping Kobe. Maybe he was serious - maybe it was just a bargaining ploy. But there is no doubt that full terms of the deal weren't ironed out before the draft (as most Laker-spawned articles would have you believe). Why would Bass bother to speculate publicly about keeping Kobe if the deal was done, and he was happy with the terms? More than anything else, that should tell you that the deal wasn't done before the draft.

My personal belief is that Bass was more than half serious about keeping Kobe after draft night, but he was also willing to trade him for the right deal. He always thought he would be able to get more from the Lakers than just Vlade. It was during that week that Kobe's agent sent the message to the Hornets, "Take the Lakers' deal, or you get nothing". Does that mean that Charlotte got screwed? I think so, but I understand if you don't. But I don't see how anyone can say that Kobe didn't force the trade. He made it clear he was never going to play for anyone but the Lakers. Anyone who drafted him was going to have to trade him or lose him. If extortion is too strong of a word, find another that means the same thing.

One more thing you probably didn't know. Vlade's wife had aspirations of being in movies. That was one of the big reasons that Vlade was so adamant about not being traded to Charlotte. In order to get him to move, the Lakers had to make a number of "arrangements" to accomodate his wife's ambitions. It was totally illegal under league rules, but since it involved the Lakers....

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Originally Posted by GSH

My original point was that Los Angeles didn't re-build from the draft like other teams. They re-built by being a being a high-profile market that enticed Kobe to shun all other offers. Are you disputing that much? There is no question that Kobe and his agent manipulated the draft. And there is no question that neither intended for him to play any place other than Los Angeles - they were very open about that. Whether Charlotte got screwed or not, there is no question that LA's re-building was helped more by Kobe's insistence on playing there than by West's genius as a GM. Can we agree on that much?

As for the trade with Charlotte? I was following the deal as it was happening because I was doing some consulting work for a company that was one of their sponsors. I don't have any inside information but I watched things develop real-time. Consider what I'm saying, and try to find some of the old news articles before you jump to conclusions:


Kobe and his agent scared off as many teams as they could before the draft. That much is indisputable, since they weren't shy about it. And there is too much record of Kobe refusing to work out for teams, etc.

There was talk between LA and Charlotte before the draft. LA put Vlade on the table, but Charlotte never believed that was all they would get in exchange.

After the draft, Charlotte (Bob Bass) was considering keeping Kobe. Maybe he was serious - maybe it was just a bargaining ploy. But there is no doubt that full terms of the deal weren't ironed out before the draft (as most Laker-spawned articles would have you believe). Why would Bass bother to speculate publicly about keeping Kobe if the deal was done, and he was happy with the terms? More than anything else, that should tell you that the deal wasn't done before the draft.

My personal belief is that Bass was more than half serious about keeping Kobe after draft night, but he was also willing to trade him for the right deal. He always thought he would be able to get more from the Lakers than just Vlade. It was during that week that Kobe's agent sent the message to the Hornets, "Take the Lakers' deal, or you get nothing". Does that mean that Charlotte got screwed? I think so, but I understand if you don't. But I don't see how anyone can say that Kobe didn't force the trade. He made it clear he was never going to play for anyone but the Lakers. Anyone who drafted him was going to have to trade him or lose him. If extortion is too strong of a word, find another that means the same thing.

One more thing you probably didn't know. Vlade's wife had aspirations of being in movies. That was one of the big reasons that Vlade was so adamant about not being traded to Charlotte. In order to get him to move, the Lakers had to make a number of "arrangements" to accomodate his wife's ambitions. It was totally illegal under league rules, but since it involved the Lakers....

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I agree what this thread is about, and that the Lakers didn't rebuild from the draft. I don't want to derail it any longer, but you have raised some new questions which don't add up, and now you have me curious. I want to get this right.

All I see is evidence a pre-draft deal was made.

1) Hornets select Kobe, if available, and trade him to the Lakers. I even gave a link confirming this was true from Charlotte's Bob Bass.

2) Where, except for your own belief, is there proof Bass wanted to keep Kobe after drafting him? All evidence says Bass wanted a center. Look again at the link I gave, and how it closes, referring to a player comparable to Divac not being in first 12 draft slots.

3) Where is their proof that the Hornets thought they could get more for Kobe because the deal wasn't done? Both sides say it was done, and logic and evidence say it was.

4) The NBA draft was held Wednesday, June 26, 1996. Divac agreed to be traded on Monday July 1, 1996. It didn't take 13 days to complete the deal as you suggested to diego above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_NBA_Draft
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-18444246.html
This time frame suggests Divac was notified Thursday he was traded and he needed the weekend to decide whether to accept or retire. It is common knowledge, with proof, Divac pondered retirement for several days. Again, more proof the deal was done and completed in advance of the draft.

5) Kobe didn't work out for Sacramento, who chose 14th, because he knew he would be drafted 13th. Why waste his time an a trip? He didn't work out for Charlotte because he knew he was drafted to be traded. Again, same logic. Which of the top 12 drafting teams did Kobe refuse to work out for?

6) We have another poster above who says Kobe didn't force anything, it's revisionist history.

7) If Kobe and his agent scared teams away from drafting him, it requires proof. Otherwise it is opinion and speculation and not valid. Same thing about a secret deal for Vlade's actress wife. Speculation.

Look at it this way. Some people say the Spurs tanked 1997 in order to get in position to draft Duncan. Of course that's not true, but if it keeps coming up. Some people believe a lie is the truth. You can see from diego's post people are confused. Thusly, some people actually believe the Spurs tanked, because they read it some where and it makes sense to them. Besides, they want to believe it. So they do.

Looks to me that probably what happened is somewhere, some time, you read that Kobe forced Charlotte to trade him and bought into it because you wanted to. There is nothing wrong with that. All the evidence I have provided seriously disputes what you were led to believe. It all points to a deal done in advance. Maybe if Vlade hadn't have balked initially those few days wouldn't have seemed like 13 days. Once the Lakers knew charlotte drafted Kobe, they just had to notify Divac's agent of the deal, probably the next day, Thursday. So, if you want to say the Kobe scared other teams from drafting him, I am willing to buy that as possible, bit not for certain without proof. However, there is no logical proof that Kobe forced Charlotte to trade him. After seeing what I have submitted, you should agree. Sorry about the derail, I like what you had to say, you have terrific franchise that should contend again and again over the years. They have proven they can.

OP, I hate to rain on your parade. I refuse to believe that Robinson was "hurt" the year before the Spurs drafted TD in the lottery. In other words you guys tanked to get him and the rest was history. I am glad he ended up with the Spurs and not Boston though.

And don't compare TD's run with Magic's Showtime run. Magic won 5 rings out of 9 Finals appearances. That was before league expansion with the Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies. During TD's reign, Kobe has 5 as well...and counting.

Spurs' fans are spoiled...but then again so are the Lakers' :toast

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Originally Posted by LkrFan

OP, I hate to rain on your parade. I refuse to believe that Robinson was "hurt" the year before the Spurs drafted TD in the lottery. In other words you guys tanked to get him and the rest was history. I am glad he ended up with the Spurs and not Boston though.

And don't compare TD's run with Magic's Showtime run. Magic won 5 rings out of 9 Finals appearances. That was before league expansion with the Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies. During TD's reign, Kobe has 5 as well...and counting.

Spurs' fans are spoiled...but then again so are the Lakers' :toast

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If you don't think Robinson was hurt that year (as well as several other key Spurs) you're a conspiracy theorist or just a moron.

Magic was fortunate enough that the other league powers at the time were iin the opposite conference. I would say that TD's run is definitely comparable (as is Kobe's). 4 is not that far from 5 and I'm not convinced that the Spurs are done yet. Of course Magic's is better; that's why the Lakers are one of the other 2 teams that the OP referred to.

Your last statement I think we can all agree on.

Oh, and FWIW, I don't think Kobe to LA had anything to do with him holding the league hostage or anything like that. He didn't have the kind of leverage to dictate where he wanted to play. Yes, he was universally seen as a great prospect, but at that time a kid straight out of high school was considered a huge risk. I thought at the time that the Lakers were gambling too much by parting with Vlade, and I know I wasn't the only one by a long shot. We were wrong, but there were a lot of people thinking it at the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LkrFan

OP, I hate to rain on your parade. I refuse to believe that Robinson was "hurt" the year before the Spurs drafted TD in the lottery. In other words you guys tanked to get him and the rest was history. I am glad he ended up with the Spurs and not Boston though.

And don't compare TD's run with Magic's Showtime run. Magic won 5 rings out of 9 Finals appearances. That was before league expansion with the Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies. During TD's reign, Kobe has 5 as well...and counting.

Spurs' fans are spoiled...but then again so are the Lakers' :toast

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So David Robinson didn't actually break his foot in a December 1996 home game against the Heat -- he just pretended to break his foot?

Bryant had leverage on whoever drafted him. Bob Bass was the Lakers useful idiot in acquiring him.

Kobe and his massive ego (even at 17 years of age) had no problem sitting out the 1996 season and playing pro ball overseas to force a trade to the left coast.

Bryant would not have sacrified much at all if he went overseas to play pro ball at that time (he was just a kid, after all). I may be wrong, but I think the retention rules of draft choices may have been different back then and he would have gone back into the draft after a year or two. The Spurs retained Splitters rights for an extended period of time after he stayed overseas.

In the end, Bob Bass got taken to the cleaners (big shock) and the Lakers sent Vlade Divac to Charlotte for Kobe.

I thought Divac was a Hornet for only one year before going to the Kings, but he actually played 1.5 years there (including the shortened 1997-98 season). Vlade signed in Sac town in 98 - I don't think the Hornets got any compensation - could be wrong there.

So nice to see a well thought out post.
Cheers to GSH.

Why would Kobe "hold the league hostage" to go to a team that didnt play him for 2 years?

I have a hard time accepting the deal was prearranged if charlotte hadn't done all their homework with Vlade. threatening retirement? doesnt that give charlotte all the leverage to demand more insurance from the lakers?

on the other hand, someone posted/linked quotes of bass mentioning nash, and he was on the board, so he could have got nash and a big man with his next pick, except instead he got another guard (delk, who was then traded for bj armstrong), which would seem to indicate he plans to trade kobe for a big all along.

either way, kobe/his agent/west all did their best to make sure he got there.

when rubio and yi jianli pulled this, there was a lot of criticism (especially rubio), I'm sure there are many more cases (I can only think of francis right now), but it seems like foreigners get more heat for it

If you add in the Robinson years, the Spurs have 20 years, in which they were a contender in 19 of them, and finished 1st or 2nd in division 19 times, all 19 with a winning record.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by diego

I have a hard time accepting the deal was prearranged if charlotte hadn't done all their homework with Vlade. threatening retirement? doesnt that give charlotte all the leverage to demand more insurance from the lakers?

on the other hand, someone posted/linked quotes of bass mentioning nash, and he was on the board, so he could have got nash and a big man with his next pick, except instead he got another guard (delk, who was then traded for bj armstrong), which would seem to indicate he plans to trade kobe for a big all along.

either way, kobe/his agent/west all did their best to make sure he got there.

when rubio and yi jianli pulled this, there was a lot of criticism (especially rubio), I'm sure there are many more cases (I can only think of francis right now), but it seems like foreigners get more heat for it

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diego, I believe I can answer your questions.

1) Charlotte has admitted they had a pre-draft deal to draft Kobe and trade him for Vlade Divac. See the link I posted.

2) This one is trickier, regarding Charlotte not doing homework on Divac and his potential retirement. Ok, follow along:

A) Teams have contracts of players and may trade them to other teams at will, barring no-trade clauses, and of course salary cap rules. GM's don't consult players or their agents unless:
B) The player and agent are actively seeking a trade. Still, it's going to be GM talking to GM and they only talk to agent once an offer has been made. The Charlotte GM wouldn't call Divac or his agent and ask if he would play in Charlotte. It's a business and players get traded without their approval. When a trade is completed, each GM calls his old players' agent and tells him of the trade, Then the player gets the news from his agent.
C) Free agency means agent talks to GM. Divac was under contract, not a free agent.
D) Who would expect Divac to retire in the prime of his career? No one would.

3) Divac threatening to retire does not give Charlotte any additional leverage in the deal. They have a deal, draft Kobe and trade him to LA for Divac. It can't be changed. See following for what could change it.

4) Now, suppose Divac does retire. His contract with the Lakers is over. Charlotte keeps Kobe. Divac can't step in and say, trade me to the Clippers so I can stay in LA and let the Clippers send someone to Charlotte and make it a 3 team trade. All Divac retiring does is void the trade between LA and Charlotte.

As mentioned, and shown with a link, Divac agreed to the trade 5 days after draft day. GSH mentioned it took 13 days and I figured out where he got that notion. The trade was official on July 11. This is standard procedure. Players must undergo physical examinations and the league must approve. If a player fails an exam, and that happens, deal is off. Usually, the NBA approves all trades, I can't think of any they don't, but I'm no expert on that. Trades are announced one day and become official on a later one. This policy confused GSH is all, nothing wrong with that. He wasn't the first, and won't be the last.

Can we close the books on the proven fact that Kobe did not force Charlotte to trade him? Since there is no evidence to say otherwise, I think it's wise.

Let's get back on topic, let me add something. Spurs missed the playoffs only 4 times. Two of those times they were fortunate to get a franchise player in the draft. If they start a youth movement now, they should be at least a 35-45 win team when Duncan retires.

Lakers missed the playoffs 5 times, once in Minnesota. In LA, they did after West retired and when they traded all their prospects for Kareem the following year. In the 90's it happened after Showtime was dismantled and a few years ago when Shaq was traded. 2014 is the key year, that's when Kobe's and Pau's contracts expire. Looks like the Lakers will bust their nuts to win while that window is open so a few years of mediocrity could await after 2014. That's also when they'll have a hell of a lot of cap space too, so who knows?

As others have said, both the Spurs and the Lakers have spoiled fans as a result of their ability to contend.

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

So David Robinson didn't actually break his foot in a December 1996 home game against the Heat -- he just pretended to break his foot?

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Yes, he broke his foot, but if I recall correctly, it was his back mostly:

Quote:

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A back injury and a fractured left foot limited Robinson to just six games in 1996-97. The Spurs won just 20 games that season, but won the NBA Draft Lottery. With the No. 1 pick in the 1997 NBA Draft, San Antonio selected Tim Duncan.

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He got his ass handed to him by Dream the year before after he just won MVP. Spurs FO realized that he needed help so he feigned injuries all year for a chance to get some kid named Duncan. Spurs tanked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harry Callahan

Bryant had leverage on whoever drafted him. Bob Bass was the Lakers useful idiot in acquiring him.

Kobe and his massive ego (even at 17 years of age) had no problem sitting out the 1996 season and playing pro ball overseas to force a trade to the left coast.

Bryant would not have sacrified much at all if he went overseas to play pro ball at that time (he was just a kid, after all). I may be wrong, but I think the retention rules of draft choices may have been different back then and he would have gone back into the draft after a year or two. The Spurs retained Splitters rights for an extended period of time after he stayed overseas.

In the end, Bob Bass got taken to the cleaners (big shock) and the Lakers sent Vlade Divac to Charlotte for Kobe.

I thought Divac was a Hornet for only one year before going to the Kings, but he actually played 1.5 years there (including the shortened 1997-98 season). Vlade signed in Sac town in 98 - I don't think the Hornets got any compensation - could be wrong there.

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No no no. No way a 17-year old had any leverage. Drafting a skinny guard straight out of HS is a major risk, plus Charlotte needed a center. The Lakers cleared cap space for a run at a disgruntled Shaq (who openly said he didn't want to play for the Magic and wanted to play for the Lakers). If anything the Lakers took a risk in losing their starting center and gambling that Shaq would sign with the Lakers. It all could have all blew up in the Lakers face but thankfully it didn't.

Bryant absolutely would not have gone overseas. That's ludicrous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BronxCowboy

If you don't think Robinson was hurt that year (as well as several other key Spurs) you're a conspiracy theorist or just a moron.

Magic was fortunate enough that the other league powers at the time were iin the opposite conference. I would say that TD's run is definitely comparable (as is Kobe's). 4 is not that far from 5 and I'm not convinced that the Spurs are done yet. Of course Magic's is better; that's why the Lakers are one of the other 2 teams that the OP referred to.

Your last statement I think we can all agree on.

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Magic was fortunate? Showtime used to kick the Knicks, Bucks, and Bulls asses on a regular basis - especially the Bulls despite MJ going off for 40 or 50. Again, the Spurs run is impressive. TD has been the centerpiece of a dynasty (I'm so glad he didn't end up in Boston) but it doesn't compare to winning one more ring than y'all did when the NBA was uber competitive in the 1980's. Anyone that disagrees with that is not thinking straight. The NBA is convoluted with expansion and manufactured superstars - unlike the 1980's.

I can't get over the unfortunate part of your post. The 1987 Lakers would kick any team in NBA history's ass - including the 1996 Bulls. Look up the 1987 Lakers roster - they were stacked with Magic in his prime. 1996 Bulls made their run in the expansion era. Showtime did it before legal zones, no hand checking, and other bitch made Stern mandates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LkrFan

Yes, he broke his foot, but if I recall correctly, it was his back mostly:

He got his ass handed to him by Dream the year before after he just won MVP. Spurs FO realized that he needed help so he feigned injuries all year for a chance to get some kid named Duncan. Spurs tanked.

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Oh yeah, David faked injuries (do you know how absurd that sounds knowing the kind of man he is, and given his record of behaviour?) so that we could then tank and only be the 3rd worst team that year (http://www.nba.com/history/lottery_probabilities.html), giving us a 21.6% chance at the top pick. Yup, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes

I have no doubt that we tanked after David went down in the 6th game of the year with a broken foot (no Spurs team of the 1990s was going anywhere without David - any team in the same situation would have done the same thing), an injury that takes 3-4 months at least (ie. at least the majority of the season) to recover from, but to suggest that David faked injuries just proves that you are just a conspiracy nut and a moron to boot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

Oh yeah, David faked injuries (do you know how absurd that sounds knowing the kind of man he is, and given his record of behaviour?) so that we could then tank and only be the 3rd worst team that year (http://www.nba.com/history/lottery_probabilities.html), giving us a 21.6% chance at the top pick. Yup, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes

I have no doubt that we tanked after David went down in the 6th game of the year with a broken foot (no Spurs team of the 1990s was going anywhere without David - any team in the same situation would have done the same thing), an injury that takes 3-4 months at least (ie. at least the majority of the season) to recover from, but to suggest that David faked injuries just proves that you are just a conspiracy nut and a moron to boot.

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Taking longer to heal or tanking - it's all the same. You guys saw a chance to go get TD and you went for it. Kudos for keeping him out of Boston. If anyone should have sat out 60 games that year, it should have been The Dream for breaking his foot...off into Robinson's ass on his way to a ring. :lol

:toast

Good post OP, thanks. It's very true that we are spoiled. i try to remind myself about that and it's easier when you have friends who are fans of other teams.

LkrFan has no clue, no surprise there.

great thread