Petraeus: Burning Koran Puts American Lives 'in Jeopardy'

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...koran-burning/

Petraeus: Burning Koran Puts American Lives 'in Jeopardy'



The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday a Florida church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book could endanger U.S. troops in the country and Americans worldwide.

"Images of the burning of a Koran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan -- and around the world -- to inflame public opinion and incite violence ," Gen. David Petraeus said. "Were the actual burning to take place, the safety of our soldiers and civilians would be put in jeopardy and accomplishment of the mission would be made more difficult."

His comments followed a protest Monday by hundreds of Afghans over the plans by Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center -- a small, evangelical Christian church that espouses anti-Islam philosophy -- to burn copies of the Koran on church grounds to mark the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Petraeus warned images of burning Korans could be used to incite anti-American sentiment similar to the pictures of prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Graib prison.

"I am very concerned by the potential repercussions of the possible (Koran) burning. Even the rumor that it might take place has sparked demonstrations such as the one that took place in Kabul yesterday," Petraeus said



Sept. 6: Afghans burn an effigy of Dove World Outreach Center's pastor Terry Jones during a demonstration against the U.S. in Kabul.
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"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort in Afghanistan. It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems. Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community," he said in a statement provided to Fox News.

Though Dove World Outreach Center has been denied a permit to hold a bonfire, the Koran burning is still scheduled to proceed on Saturday. The burning -- set to mark nine years since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- follows a campaign last year in which the church distributed T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil."

In a blog on the church's website, writer Fran Ingram offered the groups’ reasoning for burning the Koran, arguing that it is not God's word and denies Jesus is the son of God, that Islam is totalitarian and that the religion teaches idolatry, paganism, rites and rituals.

"We are using this act to warn about the teaching and ideology of Islam, which we do hate as it is hateful. We do not hate any people, however. We love, as God loves, all the people in the world and we want them to come to a knowledge of the truth," the blog reads.

Other writings by the same blogger include headlines like "Islam is Cursed by Cursing Israel" and "The Koran: A Sorcerer's Scroll."

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul issued a statement condemning the church's plans, saying Washington was "deeply concerned about deliberate attempts to offend members of religious or ethnic groups."

But outside the U.S. Embassy, where as many as 500 protestors chanted "Long live Islam" and "Death to America," demonstrators argued that the church isn't acting of its own will.

"We know this is not just the decision of a church. It is the decision of the president and the entire United States," said Abdul Shakoor, an 18-year-old high school student who said he joined the protest after hearing neighborhood gossip about the Koran burning.

Burning a Koran is considered by Muslims among the most offensive actions taken against Islam. In 2005, 15 people died and scores were wounded in riots in Afghanistan sparked by a story in Newsweek magazine alleging that interrogators at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay placed copies of the Koran in washrooms and had flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk. Newsweek later retracted the story.

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It's a shame that someone has to say this

Hey man, freedom of expression man.


Separation of Church books and state man.

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Originally Posted by EmptyMan

Hey man, freedom of expression man.


Separation of Church books and state man.

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So then no more complaining when anyone burns a bible... (not you specifically)

I'm just kidding. This guy is an idiot. He's going to sir up the hornets and probably get jihad'd on.

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Originally Posted by EmptyMan

I'm just kidding. This guy is an idiot. He's going to sir up the hornets and probably get jihad'd on.

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Of course if this was a Mosque and they were burning bibles the resident dead enders would have been in an uproar... Fox news would have done multiple news stories and sean hannity would be whoring the story...

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Of course if this was a Mosque and they were burning bibles the resident dead enders would have been in an uproar... Fox news would have done multiple news stories and sean hannity would be whoring the story...

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I agree with Petraus, it is a ridiculous and unnecessary provocation. But, being in and uproar and "whoring" a story over the burning of a Bible is a bit different than what Muslims usually advocate in response to desecration of their holy book.

i say burn all holy books..........and who ever comes running to complain gets burned with them.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Of course if this was a Mosque and they were burning bibles the resident dead enders would have been in an uproar... Fox news would have done multiple news stories and sean hannity would be whoring the story...

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Yeah, but the Christians wouldn't start beheading a bunch of people.

Say what you will about the Jesus Freaks, but at least they have evolved past the stone age.

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Originally Posted by EmptyMan

Yeah, but the Christians wouldn't start beheading a bunch of people.

Say what you will about the Jesus Freaks, but at least they have evolved past the stone age.

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no they haven't.

So, these people have a legal right to burn the Koran, but it would be morally wrong to do so because it would be insensitive to Muslims, right?

Hmmm. Seems oddly familiar.

Comparatively, they have.

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Originally Posted by EmptyMan

Yeah, but the Christians wouldn't start beheading a bunch of people.

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If Christians started beheading people then it would be much too difficult to get money out of them.

Exactly. :lol

IIRC, they can't burn (anything) inside the city limits, much like in San Antonio.

But they answer to Something Above The Law (like an "Christian" asshole preacher).

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

So, these people have a legal right to burn the Koran, but it would be morally wrong to do so because it would be insensitive to Muslims, right?

Hmmm. Seems oddly familiar.

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You're right and the same principle stands with this issue..

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

You're right and the same principle stands with this issue..

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magnified by the fact that we are in Afghanistan getting our asses shot at.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

So, these people have a legal right to burn the Koran, but it would be morally wrong to do so because it would be insensitive to Muslims, right?

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Not really. The argument is that it would be morally wrong because you would potentially be causing the unnecessary deaths of more US troops. Do you think the potential current placement of the mosque will lead to unnecessary deaths of more US troops?

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Not really. The argument is that it would be morally wrong because you would potentially be causing the unnecessary deaths of more US troops. Do you think the potential current placement of the mosque will lead to unnecessary deaths of more US troops?

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I think there is a fundamental error in your logic.

It's not that the building of the mosque would cause unnecessary deaths of more US troops; the more accurate analogy is that as the burning of the Koran would incense Muslim extremists to harm U. S. Troops, the building of the mosque would incense American or Christian extremists to harm Muslims.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe there may be a family member of one of the victims of 9-11 or some other individual (either due to mental illness or extreme political views) that would set out to wreak havoc at the Ground Zero mosque.

Both acts could be considered morally wrong because they prey on the imbalance of the most extreme opponents. Rights have very little to do with the argument.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I think there is a fundamental error in your logic.

It's not that the building of the mosque would cause unnecessary deaths of more US troops; the more accurate analogy is that as the burning of the Koran would incense Muslim extremists to harm U. S. Troops, the building of the mosque would incense American or Christian extremists to harm Muslims.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe there may be a family member of one of the victims of 9-11 or some other individual (either due to mental illness or extreme political views) that would set out to wreak havoc at the Ground Zero mosque.

Both acts could be considered morally wrong because they prey on the imbalance of the most extreme opponents. Rights have very little to do with the argument.

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What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship. Its not the mosque builders fault that the paranoid in America choose to misconstrue what the mosque means. On the other hand, there is no misconstruing the meaning of burning a Koran.

What a bunch of bullshit!

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship. Its not the mosque builders fault that the paranoid in America choose to misconstrue what the mosque means. On the other hand, there is no misconstruing the meaning of burning a Koran.

What a bunch of bullshit!

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That's our Yoni!

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship. Its not the mosque builders fault that the paranoid in America choose to misconstrue what the mosque means. On the other hand, there is no misconstruing the meaning of burning a Koran.

What a bunch of bullshit!

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Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

But, to your point, I wasn't equating the two; I was pointing out there are extreme individuals who equate the two and, therefore, the acts could lead to similar outcomes.

Granted, there are more extreme Muslims that are unable to get their minds around the concept of a Koran being a simple book of paper and ink than there are extreme Americans that would act on the fitna provocation but, nonetheless, that is the analogy I was making.

And, you'll note, I did so to correct another person flawed logic that both would lead to harm to American soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

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What Muslims? Where?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe there may be a family member of one of the victims of 9-11 or some other individual (either due to mental illness or extreme political views) that would set out to wreak havoc at the Ground Zero mosque.

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So you're saying it's reasonable to believe that Americans will become religious terrorists.

Nice.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So you're saying it's reasonable to believe that Americans will become religious terrorists.

Nice.

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I didn't see religion in that quote.

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Originally Posted by Ignignokt

I didn't see religion in that quote.

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Why would they target the mosque?

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Originally Posted by Blake

What Muslims? Where?

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I believe I linked an article earlier in this or another thread on the topic. Feel free to google.

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Originally Posted by Ignignokt

I didn't see religion in that quote.

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You're correct, you didn't.

It's reasonable to assume an American will become so incensed over the building of the mosque -- particularly if they believe it is meant to be a offense -- that they will attempt to do something in response.

However, please note, I did say it was less likely that a Muslim committing a similar act in response to a burning Koran.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

You're correct, you didn't.

It's reasonable to assume an American will become so incensed over the building of the mosque -- particularly if they believe it is meant to be a offense -- that they will attempt to do something in response.

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An offense on what grounds?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

But, to your point, I wasn't equating the two; I was pointing out there are extreme individuals who equate the two and, therefore, the acts could lead to similar outcomes.

Granted, there are more extreme Muslims that are unable to get their minds around the concept of a Koran being a simple book of paper and ink than there are extreme Americans that would act on the fitna provocation but, nonetheless, that is the analogy I was making.

And, you'll note, I did so to correct another person flawed logic that both would lead to harm to American soldiers.

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Is isn't even remotely related. The muslims building this particular mosque have claimed nothing about rubbing anyones nose on anything. Until they do, it doesn't matter what other Muslims claim it is, they're not the ones building it.

You can't hold Muslims in general responsible for what other people did. The building of this mosque isn't in and of itself an offensive act, at all. Unless you start assuming things for which you have no evidence what so ever. The burning of a Koran has offense as its sole purpose.

If we were to follow your logic, then maybe people should stop acting paranoid and delusional about this since it could be construed as a product of 9/11 and regarded as a victory by Muslim terrorists. After all, what better reason to feel victorious for a terrorist than seeing your enemy act unreasonably paranoid because of what you did to them?

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Originally Posted by Ignignokt

I didn't see religion in that quote.

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[/mosque]

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I believe I linked an article earlier in this or another thread on the topic. Feel free to google.

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Na, you don't sound 100% confident in yourself. I'd rather ask you what you mean here and now.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

Is isn't even remotely related.

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Your opinion and, one not shared by everyone...

Makes the rest of your post irrelevant to the argument. We obviously disagree.

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Originally Posted by Blake

Na, you don't sound 100% confident in yourself. I'd rather ask you what you mean here and now.

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Lazy.

I'm 100% confident I read and posted an article about Muslims calling the building of a mosque at Ground Zero and act of fitna.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Your opinion and, one not shared by everyone...

Makes the rest of your post irrelevant to the argument. We obviously disagree.

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ok, explain this to me.

Have the muslims building this mosque said anything about this being a victory for Islam against America?

Have they done anything other than express support for the victims of 9/11 and their families and even speak against terrorism, Muslim or otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Lazy.

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Yes you are.

How hard is it to say where these Muslims are located?

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I'm 100% confident I read and posted an article about Muslims calling the building of a mosque at Ground Zero and act of fitna.

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link?

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Originally Posted by Blake

[/mosque]

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The assertion there was no religion mentioned was in response to ChumpDumper's stupid comment about Americans becoming religious terrorists.

Try to keep up, Blake.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

Is isn't even remotely related. The muslims building this particular mosque have claimed nothing about rubbing anyones nose on anything. Until they do, it doesn't matter what other Muslims claim it is, they're not the ones building it.

You can't hold Muslims in general responsible for what other people did. The building of this mosque isn't in and of itself an offensive act, at all. Unless you start assuming things for which you have no evidence what so ever. The burning of a Koran has offense as its sole purpose.

If we were to follow your logic, then maybe people should stop acting paranoid and delusional about this since it could be construed as a product of 9/11 and regarded as a victory by Muslim terrorists. After all, what better reason to feel victorious for a terrorist than seeing your enemy act unreasonably paranoid because of what you did to them?

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It's very simple. The reason why most people are against the mosque being built there is because the hijackers were muslims. They feel it's insensitive because it is a Muslim place of worship.

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Originally Posted by Blake

Yes you are.

How hard is it to say where these Muslims are located?

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As hard as Googling it and finding it for yourself.

I've done it once. Your turn.

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link?

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link

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

The assertion there was no religion mentioned was in response to ChumpDumper's stupid comment about Americans becoming religious terrorists.

Try to keep up, Blake.

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Blake showed conclusively religion was indeed mentioned.

Try to keep up with your own Islamophobia, yoni.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

What the hell are you talking about?

Are you equating the building of a mosque to burning the koran? are you saying they have the same purpose in essence?

one is a deliberate act to insult the Muslim religion, the other is the construction of a peaceful place of worship.

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Well, that's what they claim.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

It's very simple. The reason why most people are against the mosque being built there is because the hijackers were muslims. They feel it's insensitive because it is a Muslim place of worship.

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See? You didn't mention the word "religion" so it isn't about religion!

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Well, that's what they claim.

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do you have any proof otherwise?

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

ok, explain this to me.

Have the muslims building this mosque said anything about this being a victory for Islam against America?

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No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

Have they done anything other than express support for the victims of 9/11 and their families and even speak against terrorism, Muslim or otherwise?

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Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Well, that's what they claim.

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What do you think it is, DarrinS?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.


Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

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So NO ONE has ever made the claim...

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

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Yes.

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Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.

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Do you believe this is what "they" are doing in this case?

Yes or no.

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Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

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If there was any reason besides Islamophobia you guys could come up with, we have yet to see it.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

So NO ONE has ever made the claim...

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No one associated with the mosque. Not that I'm aware of, not publicly.

What's your point?

Do you think if they did, it would be easier to get the complex built?

And, let's say the builders are being honest. What if the mosque becomes a "mecca" for extremist Muslims that turn it into a "victory" mosque and an act of fitna?

As I've said before, common decency would dictate the organizers just move it somewhere else. They can't control 100% of their co-religionists and we already know there is a pretty big contingent that sees this construction as a victory mosque and act of fitna.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

No but, Did the Democrats tell you Obamacare was going to cost trillions?

Does anyone generally tip their hand when they're trying to pull a fast one?

Many in the Muslim world see this as a victory mosque.

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In other words, you have absolutely no evidence this mosque is what you claim it is. In fact, you just fear it could be.

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Yes, called people who oppose the building hateful Islamophobes - including those who lost family members in the 9-11 attacks. Not exactly a compassionate dialogue.

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Well, you know what? when people can't provide a rational explanation for why they don't want a muslim mosque there, its kind of hard to believe that it is NOT Islamophobia.

I have yet to read a reasonable explanation for peoples complaints. Sensitivity towards the family's of the victims isn't enough to curtail Muslim's right to worship, specially when these Muslims have been nothing but peaceful and for all anyone knows, have nothing to do with the extremists responsible for 9/11.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

No one associated with the mosque. Not that I'm aware of, not publicly.

What's your point?

Do you think if they did, it would be easier to get the complex built?

And, let's say the builders are being honest. What if the mosque becomes a "mecca" for extremist Muslims that turn it into a "victory" mosque and an act of fitna?

As I've said before, common decency would dictate the organizers just move it somewhere else. They can't control 100% of their co-religionists and we already know there is a pretty big contingent that sees this construction as a victory mosque and act of fitna.

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Common decency would give them the benefit of the doubt since none of them had anything to do with 9/11. The only relation they have to the hijackers is they share the same faith...

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

No one associated with the mosque. Not that I'm aware of, not publicly.

What's your point?

Do you think if they did, it would be easier to get the complex built?

And, let's say the builders are being honest. What if the mosque becomes a "mecca" for extremist Muslims that turn it into a "victory" mosque and an act of fitna?

As I've said before, common decency would dictate the organizers just move it somewhere else. They can't control 100% of their co-religionists and we already know there is a pretty big contingent that sees this construction as a victory mosque and act of fitna.

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You've practically admitted you have absolutely no evidence that the intention behind this mosque is to claim some type of victory on behalf of Islam. None what so ever. In other words, you have no point other than to say they should move because you fear other muslims (who happen to be extremists) will think they won...

Do you or do you not see how ridiculous that sounds??

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Common decency would give them the benefit of the doubt since none of them had anything to do with 9/11. The only relation they have to the hijackers is they share the same faith...

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And, if there is a reasonable expectation their mosque will be "hijacked" by extremist co-religionists, that makes no difference?

There are hundreds of radicalized mosques in America spewing hate for this country.

What's to keep that one from becoming another?

Because, that seems to be the plan for the extremist Muslims. They see this as a Victory Mosque and I'm willing to bet it will attract such Muslims -- regardless of what the developers want.

And, I'm not convinced the developers are being above board, either. There are too many unanswered questions about how the mosque is being financed and the true ideology of this Rauf Imam dude.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

You've practically admitted you have absolutely no evidence that the intention behind this mosque is to claim some type of victory on behalf of Islam. None what so ever. In other words, you have no point other than to say they should move because you fear other muslims (who happen to be extremists) will think they won...

Do you or do you not see how ridiculous that sounds??

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He doesn't

leave religion out of it.

they were saudi's.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

And, if there is a reasonable expectation their mosque will be "hijacked" by extremist co-religionists, that makes no difference?

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Only if you are an Islamophobe.

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There are hundreds of radicalized mosques in America spewing hate for this country.

What's to keep that one from becoming another?

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Nothing, save the tolerance and cooperation Americans like to claim for themselves. This is what freedom is about. If you don't like that freedom, you need to take it away from everyone, because every place of worship has a potential for hatred.

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Because, that seems to be the plan for the extremist Muslims. They see this as a Victory Mosque and I'm willing to bet it will attract such Muslims -- regardless of what the developers want.

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So what?

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And, I'm not convinced the developers are being above board, either. There are too many unanswered questions about how the mosque is being financed and the true ideology of this Rauf Imam dude.

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Fox News is linked to terrorists.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

You've practically admitted you have absolutely no evidence that the intention behind this mosque is to claim some type of victory on behalf of Islam. None what so ever. In other words, you have no point other than to say they should move because you fear other muslims (who happen to be extremists) will think they won...

Do you or do you not see how ridiculous that sounds??

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I'm not directly involved in the project. Just like you, my opinions are based on what is said and written by others.

How many people who want to engage in an act they know will be deeply offensive to other -- in particular, their fellow countrymen -- would be honest about their intent up front?

Are you that naive?

There are people in Texas who still believe the Texas Lottery was all about education.

There are people in this country who still believe Obama's economic plan is taking us in the right direction.

If I was a radical muslim that wanted to erect a victory mosque at Ground Zero, the last thing I'd do would be to tell America before it was done.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Not everyone believes the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a peaceful act. In fact, there are Muslims who are calling it an act of fitna -- in essence, rubbing our noses in the Muslim victory there.

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That's a poor basis to use though. If I call the act of building a church an affront to atheists everywhere, does that mean the church shouldn't be built?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Granted, there are more extreme Muslims that are unable to get their minds around the concept of a Koran being a simple book of paper and ink than there are extreme Americans that would act on the fitna provocation but, nonetheless, that is the analogy I was making.

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I think the greater disparity between the two makes the analogy flawed. Not to mention that people can choose voluntarily whether or not to attend the mosque, right? People who burn the Koran are not putting their lives in danger, but those of soldiers.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

He doesn't

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I think that you believe there is no cause for reasonable suspicion is ridiculous.

I'm reminded of Yasser Arafat's pledges of peace when speaking to American Crowd and pledges of destruction of Israel when speaking to Palestinian crowds.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

That's a poor basis to use though. If I call the act of building a church an affront to atheists everywhere, does that mean the church shouldn't be built?

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If I built a church at the site where 3,000 Athiests were murdered in the name of Christianity, yes.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I think the greater disparity between the two makes the analogy flawed. Not to mention that people can choose voluntarily whether or not to attend the mosque, right? People who burn the Koran are not putting their lives in danger, but those of soldiers.

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No, the analogy works if you consider the people intent on building the mosque are putting not only voluntary attendees at risk but, neighbors, and neighboring buildings.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

And, if there is a reasonable expectation their mosque will be "hijacked" by extremist co-religionists, that makes no difference?

There are hundreds of radicalized mosques in America spewing hate for this country.

What's to keep that one from becoming another?

Because, that seems to be the plan for the extremist Muslims. They see this as a Victory Mosque and I'm willing to bet it will attract such Muslims -- regardless of what the developers want.

And, I'm not convinced the developers are being above board, either. There are too many unanswered questions about how the mosque is being financed and the true ideology of this Rauf Imam dude.

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Can you provide a single shred of evidence to all the bullshit you just spewed in the above post?? :rolleyes

What exactly constitutes a reasonable expectation? and where exactly are all these "thousands of radicalized mosques"?

in essence what I'm trying to ask is, how you can complain about people labeling this anti-mosque protest as Islamophobic when you yourself can't provide anything other than blind fear as the reason why you're protesting it?

Islamophobe has a negative connotation obviously, but what it essentially boils down to is having an irrational fear of muslims... from what you've posted so far, your fear of them is pretty irrational.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

If I was a radical muslim that wanted to erect a victory mosque at Ground Zero, the last thing I'd do would be to tell America before it was done.

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this statement right here is the reason why people label the movement Islamophobic. Do you seriously not see why?

I'm sorry, it just boggles my mind.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

If I built a church at the site where 3,000 Athiests were murdered in the name of Christianity, yes.

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So it's about religion.

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No, the analogy works if you consider the people intent on building the mosque are putting not only voluntary attendees at risk but, neighbors, and neighboring buildings.

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Who is going to attack the strip club?

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

Can you provide a single shred of evidence to all the bullshit you just spewed in the above post?? :rolleyes

What exactly constitutes a reasonable expectation? and where exactly are all these "thousands of radicalized mosques"?

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I said hundreds and Washington State, Detroit, and New Jersey are home to more than their share.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

in essence what I'm trying to ask is, how you can complain about people labeling this anti-mosque protest as Islamophobic when you yourself can't provide anything other than blind fear as the reason why you're protesting it?

Islamophobe has a negative connotation obviously, but what it essentially boils down to is having an irrational fear of muslims... from what you've posted so far, your fear of them is pretty irrational.

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Read up on the Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church. Just one of the hundreds of radicalized mosques in the United States.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I said hundreds and Washington State, Detroit, and New Jersey are home to more than their share.


Read up on the Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church. Just one of the hundreds of radicalized mosques in the United States.

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Show me a list of the hundreds.

It's your claim. Back it up.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

this statement right here is the reason why people label the movement Islamophobic. Do you seriously not see why?

I'm sorry, it just boggles my mind.

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Why? Are you saying they'd be up front and honest if that was their intention? I think it's a reasonable suspicion...particularly given what we're learning about Rauf and the financing of the mosque.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Why? Are you saying they'd be up front and honest if that was their intention? I think it's a reasonable suspicion...particularly given what we're learning about Rauf and the financing of the mosque.

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Fox News is linked to terrorism.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

If I built a church at the site where 3,000 Athiests were murdered in the name of Christianity, yes.

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So the only thing that matters is how many people are offended? IOW, if enough people are offended, then it's not moral, but if only a few people are offended, it is? What if a few anonymous atheists say that they will bomb a building if it is built? Should that church not be built then? If all you're talking about is the possible "safety" of a bldg, then numbers shouldn't make a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

No, the analogy works if you consider the people intent on building the mosque are putting not only voluntary attendees at risk but, neighbors, and neighboring buildings.

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Using this sort of thought, then numerous amounts of buildings couldn't be built, because they might POSSIBLY piss someone off. Abortion clinics? Can't build them, because people bomb them. Bars? Can't build them, they offend some people and someone might want to take them out. Etc etc. What about banks? People rob banks, and hold people hostage, therefore we should not allow banks to be built, as they are inherently unsafe. :lol

Look, the whole act of building a structure and book burning are two distinct acts; drawing an analogy between them fails for the most part, because they are dissimilar.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Why? Are you saying they'd be up front and honest if that was their intention? I think it's a reasonable suspicion...particularly given what we're learning about Rauf and the financing of the mosque.

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I don't. I think its a convenient excuse though. Mainly because your suspicions are baseless. Show me the evidence behind your suspicions. Evidence on this mosque and on the Muslim's building it.

Notice I'm not asking you to speak for anyone else. I'm talking about YOUR suspicions.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

I don't. I think its a convenient excuse though. Mainly because your suspicions are baseless. Show me the evidence behind your suspicions. Evidence on this mosque and on the Muslim's building it.

Notice I'm not asking you to speak for anyone else. I'm talking about YOUR suspicions.

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My opposition to the mosque is not based on what I believe the organizers are intending there.

My opposition is based in compassion and solidarity with those who lost loved one on 9-11 that are opposed to the mosque. Initially, I believed the organizer would accede to the pleas of those who couldn't understand why a mosque would be built there but, when they started calling 9-11 victims hateful Islamophobes, I began to question their motives.

Then when you throw in Iranian, Palestian, and Syrian support for the building of the mosque -- without the organizers rejecting that support, I think it's reasonable to assume their motives are less than honorable.

Some Muslim sheik testified before a Senate committee back in 1999 that more than 80% of American mosques were influenced by or under the control of radical Muslims. I'm looking for the testimony now...

I've found plenty of stories recounting his testimony but, until I actually read the testimony in the Congressional Record, I won't claim it's true. It just happens to agree with my assertion that hundred of mosques are radicalized.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

My opposition is based solely in Islamophobia.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

My opposition to the mosque is not based on what I believe the organizers are intending there.

My opposition is based in compassion and solidarity with those who lost loved one on 9-11 that are opposed to the mosque. Initially, I believed the organizer would accede to the pleas of those who couldn't understand why a mosque would be built there but, when they started calling 9-11 victims hateful Islamophobes, I began to question their motives.

Then when you throw in Iranian, Palestian, and Syrian support for the building of the mosque -- without the organizers rejecting that support, I think it's reasonable to assume their motives are less than honorable.

Some Muslim sheik testified before a Senate committee back in 1999 that more than 80% of American mosques were influenced by or under the control of radical Muslims. I'm looking for the testimony now...

I've found plenty of stories recounting his testimony but, until I actually read the testimony in the Congressional Record, I won't claim it's true. It just happens to agree with my assertion that hundred of mosques are radicalized.

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You can't possibly expect that what essentially amounts to a hunch on your part, be considered the evidence everyone here is asking for...

Is that you think the people defending the building of this mosque are oblivious to the existence of radical muslims? that they'd support the building of a mosque where muslims are radicalized against America?

What people defending the mosque argue is that unless you have concrete proof that this mosque is intended to do what you claim it is, you cannot, and more importantly must not, let your fears make you do something that is completely uncharacteristic of what America is all about... or at least claims to be all about.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Initially, I believed the organizer would accede to the pleas of those who couldn't understand why a mosque would be built there but, when they started calling 9-11 victims hateful Islamophobes, I began to question their motives.

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In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

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Originally Posted by Blake

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

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How far away is Afghanistan? :lol

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

You can't possibly expect that what essentially amounts to a hunch on your part, be considered the evidence everyone here is asking for...

Is that you think the people defending the building of this mosque are oblivious to the existence of radical muslims? that they'd support the building of a mosque where muslims are radicalized against America?

What people defending the mosque argue is that unless you have concrete proof that this mosque is intended to do what you claim it is, you cannot, and more importantly must not, let your fears make you do something that is completely uncharacteristic of what America is all about... or at least claims to be all about.

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On the Islamophobic meme. If it was fear that drove opposition, don't you believe there'd be a call to close all mosques, everywhere? A radicalized mosque at Ground Zero is no less dangerous than one in Seattle.

That's not the issue but, supporters have done a grand job of making it so.

It's not Islamophobia.

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Originally Posted by Blake

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

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Ask a victim of 9-11.

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Originally Posted by Blake

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

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well, it couldn't be any farther away from nearest mosque. there's about a hundred of them.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

You can't possibly expect that what essentially amounts to a hunch on your part, be considered the evidence everyone here is asking for...

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Hey, we invaded and occupied a Muslim country, killing tens of thousands of them on a hunch.

Why should this be any different? When it comes to Muslims, going with your gut trumps the principals on which this country was founded.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Ask a victim of 9-11.

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Which one?

Several of them approve of the mosque's construction.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Ask a victim of 9-11.

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Define victim.

I'm American. I feel like we were all victims.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

On the Islamophobic meme. If it was fear that drove opposition, don't you believe there'd be a call to close all mosques, everywhere? A radicalized mosque at Ground Zero is no less dangerous than one in Seattle.

That's not the issue but, supporters have done a grand job of making it so.

It's not Islamophobia.

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that's a cop out. Most people realize they can't demand mosques be shut down everywhere in America. Islamophobia doesn't mean stupidity.

Obviously, this sensitivity schtick provides a great excuse for people to act on their fear of the muslim culture, and until people protesting can bring some kind of rational explanation for their demands, it will continue to look like fear is the motive behind them.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

that's a cop out. Most people realize they can't demand mosques be shut down everywhere in America. Islamophobia doesn't mean stupidity.

Obviously, this sensitivity schtick provides a great excuse for people to act on their fear of the muslim culture, and until people protesting can bring some kind of rational explanation for their demands, it will continue to look like fear is the motive behind them.

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Schtick?

You accuse the victim's families of engaging in schtick?

If it were fear, the Ground Zero mosque wouldn't be the only target of opposition. You'd see opposition to the building of a new mosque anywhere and protests against existing mosques believed to be radicalized.

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Originally Posted by Blake

Define victim.

I'm American. I feel like we were all victims.

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And, as of this week 70% believe the mosque shouldn't be built.

That's more of a consensus than Algore had on Global War...er, Climate Change.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

And, as of this week 70% believe the mosque shouldn't be built.

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Originally Posted by Blake

In your opinion, how far away from Ground Zero is a good buffer zone of sensitivity?

Please give an exact distance.

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so what yoni. like chump said, look what happened the last time a knuckledragger acted on his gut.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Schtick?

You accuse the victim's families of engaging in schtick?

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I'm not talking about the victim's families. I'm talking about every other stone faced hypocrite using their ordeal to further an agenda of their own.

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If it were fear, the Ground Zero mosque wouldn't be the only target of opposition. You'd see opposition to the building of a new mosque anywhere and protests against existing mosques believed to be radicalized.

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I already answered this.

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

I'm not talking about the victim's families. I'm talking about every other stone faced hypocrite using their ordeal to further an agenda of their own.

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Do the victim's families have a legitimate argument?

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

I already answered this.

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It wasn't a question.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

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Completely and utterly ridiculous statement

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Schtick?

You accuse the victim's families of engaging in schtick?

If it were fear, the Ground Zero mosque wouldn't be the only target of opposition. You'd see opposition to the building of a new mosque anywhere and protests against existing mosques believed to be radicalized.

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Google "Tennessee mosque" and get back to me.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

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What about those who lost loved ones and want the mosque to be built near ground zero?

Where is your compassion for and solidarity with them?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Do the victim's families have a legitimate argument?

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No, they don't, but I do think they are being sincere, although misguided, about their grievance, unlike most of the people involved in this. The people responsible for the Mosque seem to have nothing to do with the people responsible for 9/11. So the victim's families grievances are directed at the wrong people.

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It wasn't a question.

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Fine, I already talked about this. Happy?

Does anyone else think it's insulting to Muslims to insinuate that a large number of them will go batshit crazy and go on marauding, murderous rampages if a book is burned?

Likewise, isn't thinking that a Muslim will snap and have a phychotic episode because they've seen their invisible god in cartoon form equally insulting?

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

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go ahead and show me who's been saying this? or even insinuating this.

it really is laughable that you think this bullshit is helping you make a point, specially since you've been insinuating this very thing since the beginning.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

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I don't. Why do you?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Does anyone else think it's insulting to Muslims to insinuate that a large number of them will go batshit crazy and go on marauding, murderous rampages if a book is burned?

Likewise, isn't thinking that a Muslim will snap and have a phychotic episode because they've seen their invisible god in cartoon form equally insulting?

Why do you guys think all Muslims are batshit crazy religious zealots?

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What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

I say burn the Koran and ask those who are upset to be more tolerant.

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Originally Posted by Blake

I don't. Why do you?

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Because they go batshit over burned Korans and images of Mohammed?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Okay, to answer; as far away as those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero would like.

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are all those who lost loved ones at Ground Zero united in their determination of how far away is far enough?

I wasn't aware.....

Do they have a Yahoo Groups account? I'd like to get in on it.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

go ahead and show me who's been saying this? or even insinuating this.

it really is laughable that you think this bullshit is helping you make a point, specially since you've been insinuating this very thing since the beginning.

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But, you guys seem to think Muslims have only a precarious grip on reality and will suddently SNAP the moment they see a cartoon of <name redacted, PBUH>. That's very insulting. Muslims are very rational people.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

What do you think they will do, DarrinS?

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Why would this endanger our troops?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Because they go batshit over burned Korans and images of Mohammed?

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Really, that's what they all do?

link?