Feds send Bastrop man to jail for selling gun to illegal alien

I would like to note that it mentions a special agent seeing Huerta (the purchaser) hand off the gun to Aviles... I haven't seen any mention of the seller noticing the hand-off. Additionally, I don't see why they didn't prosecute the illegal immigrant either.

The jury's reasoning for finding him guilty (that he essentially looked like an illegal immigrant because he was Mexican) is stupid too... I mean, in that case, 95% of San Antonio are illegal immigrants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Ok, let's throw a hypothetical out there. (I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.)

Two men walk up to a seller, and one of them says, "Hello, here is my ID, and I would like to purchase this gun for my friend. His name is Abdul Ja-quim, and he is a terrorist. He plans on using this gun to shoot a government official. How much will that gun cost?"

Now, there may not be a law on the books that specifically prohibits this, but I doubt the scenario presented above would make the sale of that firearm illegal.

What if we made it slightly more realistic, and the purchaser just said, "Hello, I'd like to purchase this gun for my friend, who is not allowed by law to purchase guns."? Would that be kosher?

---

If the seller was a FFL license holder that would clearly be a straw sale and would clearly be illegal.

Individual sales are not subject to the same laws. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's legal. Back to the mosque argument, just from the other side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clambake

what did he do after he saw the guy hand the gun to his friend?

---

What was he supposed to do? It wasn't his gun anymore. The new guy owned it and could give or sell it to anyone he pleased.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

No you didn't. He didn't sell a gun to an illegal alien. He sold the gun to a Texas resident with a valid drivers license.

Next?

---

He sold the gun to an illegal alien.

That is the law he broke, for which he was convicted and sentenced.

If you have a court ruling saying such straw purchases are legal, please provide a link to it.

Thanks in advance.

Really, CC. Try thinking about it. By your legal "reasoning" you can buy alcohol for a minor who brings a case of beer up to the register, takes the money out of his pocket, gives it to you to pay the cashier and then you can give the minor the beer all in plain sight of a policeman. That cashier would be in no jeopardy according to you.

Is this really what you are claiming?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

What was he supposed to do? It wasn't his gun anymore. The new guy owned it and could give or sell it to anyone he pleased.

---

so, you didn't read about it, did you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's legal. Back to the mosque argument, just from the other side.

---

Eh, because the US works more on common law than civil law, it might still be illegal; depends on if there are precedents set by our courts. On paper though, it seems there isn't a violation of law, just of the "spirit of the law" (which might still count, not a lawyer/judge).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

The jury's reasoning for finding him guilty (that he essentially looked like an illegal immigrant because he was Mexican) is stupid too... I mean, in that case, 95% of San Antonio are illegal immigrants.

---

Plus that reasoning in a Federal court is just dripping with irony considering the lawsuit against Arizona and the accusations of potential profiling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

He sold the gun to an illegal alien.

That is the law he broke, for which he was convicted and sentenced.

If you have a court ruling saying such straw purchases are legal, please provide a link to it.

Thanks in advance.

Really, CC. Try thinking about it. By your legal "reasoning" you can buy alcohol for a minor who brings a case of beer up to the register, takes the money out of his pocket, gives it to you to pay the cashier and then you can give the minor the beer all in plain sight of a policeman. That cashier would be in no jeopardy according to you.

Is this really what you are claiming?

---

Chump, there are laws written specifically to address straw purchases on liquor sales. Not on individual gun sales.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I would like to note that it mentions a special agent seeing Huerta (the purchaser) hand off the gun to Aviles... I haven't seen any mention of the seller noticing the hand-off. Additionally, I don't see why they didn't prosecute the illegal immigrant either.

---

The seller negotiated the price with Aviles well before the hand off.

Aviles took the money out of his pocket.....Copeland asked for ID.....he produced no ID.......Huerta produced ID.......Aviles handed money to Huerta.......Huerta handed money to Copeland.........Copeland handed gun to Huerta........Huerta handed gun to Aviles.

I'm cure CC will spin this into further self-pwnage.

Quote:

---

The jury's reasoning for finding him guilty (that he essentially looked like an illegal immigrant because he was Mexican) is stupid too... I mean, in that case, 95% of San Antonio are illegal immigrants.

---

I agree that they should go after anyone else that might be law breakers, but that does not, of course, excuse the seller in this particular case...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blake

The seller negotiated the price with Aviles well before the hand off.

Aviles took the money out of his pocket.....Copeland asked for ID.....he produced no ID.......Huerta produced ID.......Aviles handed money to Huerta.......Huerta handed money to Copeland.........Copeland handed gun to Huerta........Huerta handed gun to Aviles.

---

Again, the law only addresses straw sales from FFL holders. It does not address straw sales on individual sales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Again, the law only addresses straw sales from FFL holders. It does not address straw sales on individual sales

---

oh.....then clearly he should not have been arrested, tried, and found guilty in a court of law.

:downspin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Chump, there are laws written specifically to address straw purchases on liquor sales.

---

Not every possible straw sale. That is not how the legal system works.

Quote:

---

Not on individual gun sales.

---

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the common law system. You provided no case law supporting your contention that individual straw gun sales are allowed by the federal court system. You can bet Copeland's lawyer would have done so had such a ruling existed.

It's not a straw sale, it's a direct sale under Blake's scenario. Also, he "otherwise disposed" of the firearm to an illegal alien.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Again, the law only addresses straw sales from FFL holders. It does not address straw sales on individual sales

---

Well, I mean, that's why we have courts, to determine cases like this. I would say that there doesn't seem to be a law against it, but the court may find him guilty anyways. I don't think the guy has much sense, if it played out as Blake described it. "What, you don't have ID? Does anyone else here have some ID they want to show me so they can purchase a gun for this man?" In that case, what's the point of even having to show an ID? :lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

It's not a straw sale, it's a direct sale under Blake's scenario. Also, he "otherwise disposed" of the firearm to an illegal alien.

---

He didn't know the guy was an illegal alien. He spoke good english. All he knew was that the guy didn't have a drivers license.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

He didn't know the guy was an illegal alien. He spoke good english. All he knew was that the guy didn't have a drivers license.

---

So then why bother asking for IDs in the first place.

According to your logic, saying (in English) "I'm of age and a resident of this state" should be sufficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

He didn't know the guy was an illegal alien. He spoke good english. All he knew was that the guy didn't have a drivers license.

---

then why did he make the guy give the gun back, even though he knew?

And yeah, I think the guy was a dummy too, but that doesn't mean he should go to prison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blake

So then why bother asking for IDs in the first place.

According to your logic, saying (in English) "I'm of age and a resident of this state" should be sufficient.

---

Actually, it almost is...asking for a drivers license is above and beyond the law. It would be adequate for the purchaser to state that they are of age and legally entitled to purchase firearms...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

And yeah, I think the guy was a dummy too, but that doesn't mean he should go to prison.

---

It's a work camp, but there are plenty of stupid criminals in prison and work camps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Actually, it almost is...asking for a drivers license is above and beyond the law. It would be adequate for the purchaser to state that they are of age and legally entitled to purchase firearms...

---

Apparently it's not adequate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

Actually, it almost is...asking for a drivers license is above and beyond the law. It would be adequate for the purchaser to state that they are of age and legally entitled to purchase firearms...

---

Why would you even need to ask the purchaser to state they are of age and legally entitled to purchase? In the case you mentioned, the purchaser could say such and hand the gun right over to someone they knew wasn't able to legally purchase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blake

Here is the actual ruling on the case.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/2215...5-pm-599k?da=y

If you have trouble understanding the ruling and why Copeland was convicted, let me know.

Cracks me up when people believe the first thing they read on the internet. Just another reason why I like this forum. :tu

---

Yep, looks like he knowing sold to someone not legal to purchase the weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

So he was actually convicted of selling the gun to a legal resident who was actually making a straw purchase for an illegal alien and the guy who made the straw purchase was not prosecuted.

Riiiight.


that STILL reeks of Federal over-reach.

---

Yes, it's overreaching, but anti-gun liberals love to do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy

We aren't talking about a case of rocket launchers or hand grenades here. He sold a stinking 38 caliber pistol to a guy that showed him a valid Texas Drivers License.

What bullshit!

---

It's like an underage person wanting to buy beer. When the store clerk refuses to sell it without ID, the kid asks the next costumer to buy it for him. Under such situations, the store owner and clerk would still be cited for selling to a minor if they made that sale.