Williams and O'Reilly blast NPR.
They make a good point: Juan stating how he "feels" on flights with Muslims in "full Muslim garb" is NOT an opinion.
Interview with Williams starts about 4 min in.
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Williams and O'Reilly blast NPR.
They make a good point: Juan stating how he "feels" on flights with Muslims in "full Muslim garb" is NOT an opinion.
Interview with Williams starts about 4 min in.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
I can see where someone who was completely, profoundly, ignorant of JW's writings and news pieces would adopt this stance. Willfull ignorance...it's not just for boutons anymore.:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by boutons_deux
I'm not so sure that a feeling isn't an opinion. I more take issue with the characterization of the feeling as bigoted. It seems to me Mr. Williams was fired for revealing his own human frailty and irrationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
So you ignore the explanation they give completely? The comment WAS bigoted. Can you give me a rational explanation for feeling afraid of Muslims wearing religious clothing or can you only give me an emotional explanation completely overturned by overwhelming statistics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
I'm not sure what explanation you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
No. Feelings of fear and insecurity are not rational, but neither do I think they are necessarily bigoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
If Juan Williams is a bigot based on one comment standing alone, the word has no meaning anymore.
Which, to me, seemed to be a point he was attempting to make which would be very consistent with his writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
The explanation from NPR not singling this episode out but rather citing a long line of infractions of their ethics code for journalists. While everyone seems to be focused in on his comments here NPR did provide a different explanation for his firing which I linked in this thread. You could choose to ignore it as a convient cover story for them, but even Darrin pointed out William's history of going on these shows for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
I don't see how they're not when you acknowledge their irrationality. I'm honestly at a loss to understand how someone can look at a Muslim boarding a plane and think they are a fucking terrorist and be afraid. Its so completely irrational that you might as well be afraid of the boogey man coming out of your closet at night.Quote:
No. Feelings of fear and insecurity are not rational, but neither do I think they are necessarily bigoted.
To be sure, I can see how offering that point on Fox News might raise some pious, liberal eyebrows, but it's a reasonable -- even anodyne -- opinion.
Thats the myth of equivalency again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
All bigots hold irrational views. Not all irrational views are bigoted.
Lol @ tag teaming Manny. Sorry dude.
:toast
Not sure what that has to with with the allegedly bigoted nature of Mr. Williams comments, which is what I thought we were discussing. NPR can be justified by its own policy and moronic for following it to a T in this case. The two aren't mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
You got NPR's back, even after Ellen Weiss publicly suggested Williams needs psychiatric help. That's your prerogative.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
If others wish to focus on other things, that's theirs.
It's like that, yes. People can be like that. It doesn't make them all bigots. Juan Williams admitting he has moments like that doesn't make him one either. I think you have to look at the totality of someone's words/actions before coming to that conclusion, instead of flying off the handle every time someone puts a foot wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
So you're saying that NPR also fired the English Language?Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Perhaps 9/11 created a lot of bigots, WH. I don't think he's a bad man and he's obviously very intelligent, but being afraid of a religious group for no rational reason is pretty much bigotry in my book.
What about all irrational fears of religious groups? I don't think I made the equivalence that you're insinuating.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
Welcome to zero tolerance land, where context cannot exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Are you kidding me? This is actually fun. I have no problem disagreeing with people like you and WH and discussing it and it sure beats the hell out of speaking with certain others in this forum who have spent all of their mental strength on figuring out how to embed youtubes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
Or welcome to post 9/11 America where irrational fear isn't considered bigotry.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
He straight up illustrated the irrationality...he highlighted it for examination only to be branded a bigot by those who wont read him outside of this instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
No. I'm suggesting you fired the context and common sense appreciation for his admitted human frailty.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
For the record I believe her comments to be extremely unprofessional. Perhaps I made the mistake of framing your debate in the same context as others but when you called their move stupid I equated your argument with those who are also saying NPR should lose public money etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
I said the comment was a bigoted comment. I've clearly stated Juan Williams isn't a bad person in my limited opinion. My comments were clearly focused on the comment itself. One who makes comments like that is by definition a bigot, but that on its own carries little weight without a history.Quote:
If others wish to focus on other things, that's theirs.
It's like that, yes. People can be like that. It doesn't make them all bigots. Juan Williams admitting he has moments like that doesn't make him one either. I think you have to look at the totality of someone's words/actions before coming to that conclusion, instead of flying off the handle every time someone puts a foot wrong.
Perhaps not all bigots are created, equal, WH. I think its safe to say that Juan Williams is not the same as a Klansman.
Did I? I didn't remove the nuance from my argument, WH. You only perceived I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Ahhh screw it....Im gonna find some youtubes.:ihit
:lol:lol
I disagree. Accusations of bigotry carry a lot of weight, even if the occasion is minor.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
http://reason.com/blog/2010/10/21/juan-goneQuote:
Williams' firing is a clarifying moment in media mores. You can be Islamophobic, in the form of refusing to run the most innocuous imaginable political cartoons out of a broad-brush fear of Muslims, but you can't admit it, even when the fear is expressed as a personal feeling and not a group description, winnowed down to the very specific and nightmare-exhuming act of riding on an airplane, and uttered in a context of otherwise repudiating collective guilt and overbroad fearmongering.
I'll read it in a bit, but the premise that refusing to run cartoons is islamaphobic is completely wrong because that anticipates the reaction of an extremest group and not all Muslims. Poorly thought out parallel.
Williams: NPR was looking for reason to fire him
By BRETT ZONGKER, Associated Press Writer Brett Zongker, Associated Press Writer – 5 mins ago
NPR very actively discourages staff from being too politically active. It was noted by NPR itself in a piece I listened to last night that they have forbidden staff from attending Stewarts March to Restore Sanity in a couple of weeks.Quote:
WASHINGTON – Ousted NPR analyst Juan Williams said Friday that he believes his former employer had been looking for a reason to fire him and used comments he made this week about Muslim airline passengers as an excuse to do so. Meanwhile, a U.S. senator said he would start the ball rolling to cut federal funding to the network.
Muslim groups were outraged by Williams' comments Monday on Fox News that he gets nervous when he sees people in Muslim dress on planes. But Williams' firing two days later prompted complaints by conservatives and even some liberals that NPR went too far.
Williams said Friday on ABC's "Good Morning America" that he believes NPR had wanted to fire him for some time because they disapproved of his appearances on shows by his other employer, Fox News. Opinions Williams expressed on Fox News over the years had strained his relationship with NPR to the point that the public radio network asked him to stop using its name when he appeared on Bill O'Reilly's show.
"I think they were looking for a reason to get rid of me," he said Friday. "They were uncomfortable with the idea that I was talking to the likes of Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity." Hannity hosts another Fox show
From what it is worth, it appears Mr. Williams is likely right when he says this.
*cough*Marra Liasson *cough*Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
I remember there was a study back in 2003, where photos were flashed of black and white men, some armed with guns, others with cell phones or wallets, some unarmed. The test subjects had about half a second to decide quickly whether to press a "shoot" or "don't shoot" button, based on the photos.
It was shown that subjects were more likely to shoot the photos of black men, even when unarmed. There was no discrepancy between black and white test subjects.
So, we are probably programmed to react this way, based on how we are conditioned. There is nothing bigotted about self-preservation. If there is a visceral reaction to seeing an orthadox Muslim at an airport, it probably has more to do with witnessing the past 40 years of jihadist terrorist attacks and associating things like 9/11 with that "bearded" image than it has to do with counscious, pre-meditated bigotry.
That woman that came up with the idea for "Everybody Draw Muhammed Day" (PBUH) had to basically give up her identity and go into hiding as suggested to her by the FBI.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
I find the rate at which this country views "bigots" in such black and white terms, simply because of their natural reactions to certain stimuli, quite alarming. People completely ignore the natural psychological aspects of these things. Seeing Muslims in religious clothing at an airport brings rushing to the front, memories of 9/11 and ideas of extremists. It appears many repress or even deny having these thoughts, but I find that extremely hard to believe. Humans naturally associate former learning with new stimuli, which is why you have people railing against the GZ mosque, and feeling a bit uneasy around traditional Muslims at airports.
It's not bigotry, by and large. It's a human reaction, which must then be repressed voluntarily.
Quote:
By EMILIO KARIM DABUL
NPR's firing of commentator Juan Williams this week is one of the worst examples of rush to judgment since 9/11.
Mr. Williams, whether one tends to agree with him or not, is immensely respected by his fellow journalists and viewers alike for his ability to conduct himself with dignity and respect in a field where extremes of opinion and low-ball tactics have become all too common. He's mostly a moderate liberal who is able to hear other points of view with respect, and he can be nuanced in his own views.
In these times, Mr. Williams's instinct for finding both middle and common ground is no small feat.
And for what offense has he been pilloried by the censorship squad of NPR? For saying out loud what many Americans think—that he gets nervous when he's on a plane and sees people dressed in traditional Muslim garb.
As an Arab-American of Muslim descent, I am not offended by this because in all honesty I have had the same reaction in similar circumstances. In Berlin a couple of years ago, my flight was delayed because, we were told, one of the passengers, who was in a wheelchair, needed extra assistance. When she finally was brought into the waiting area, she was covered from head to toe in traditional Muslim dress and only her eyes were visible. What happened? I grew nervous. I got on the plane just the same, but with trepidation.
Was my response rational? Yes and no.
It was not Muslims in traditional garb who hijacked those planes on 9/11, and it certainly was not Muslim women in veils and wheelchairs. If anything, an Islamist terrorist wants to blend in, not stand out.
However, it was not a traditional sort of terrorist attack I feared in this case, but perhaps something unexpected: a traditional Muslim woman in a veil, confined to a wheelchair, who was loaded with explosives.
That may make me guilty of an overactive imagination, but perhaps not. Not that many years later, a young Muslim on an international flight into Detroit tried to light explosives in his underwear.
I mention all this for one main reason. I grew up surrounded by Islamic culture, went to Islamic events, and was used to seeing women in traditional Muslim clothing, and yet when that woman appeared at the Berlin airport, I was scared.
That's all Mr. Williams was saying. He didn't say that they should be removed from the plane, treated differently, or anything close to that. He simply said he got nervous. And for that, he was fired.
The reality is that when Muslims cease to be the main perpetrators of terrorism in the world, such fears about traditional garb are bound to vanish. Until such time, the anxiety will remain. In the long run, it's what we do with such fears that matters, not that we have them.
But regarding what happened to Mr. Williams, no one should tolerate such intolerant behavior on the part of NPR. This broadcast network is paid for by the American taxpayers, and as such we all have a stake in its decisions.
Anyone who cares about freedom of speech should protest what has been done to this decent and fair man. And even if that were not the case, even if Mr. Williams' views made him a detestable ogre to most, he still has the right to voice them. For many Americans, NPR's consistent tilt to the left has caused them to reject it as a viable source of news.
NPR often embodies the very things it claims to stand against: unfairness, narrow-mindedness and reactionary policies.
I ask all Americans of conscience, most particularly those of Arab and/or Muslim descent, to protest the firing of Juan Williams and to demand that public funding to NPR cease until Mr. Williams's good name has been cleared and he has been rehired (if he still wants to work for this network).
We deserve better from a public radio network funded by taxpayer money.
So Juan Williams himself sees his firing for what it was.
So the Repug/Fox Repug Propaganda network's Muslim-baiting, Islamophobia, xenophobia is paying off.
Excellent! The VRWC always raises the bar and moves society forward.
And now Fox Repug Network has its token conservative Uncle Tom, like the SCOTUS has its Uncle Tom.
Let's all give a paranoid cheer for the liberal bias that dominates the media.
I watched the horrors of 9/11 too. I'm no fan of Al Queda. Why don't I experience fear when I see Muslims boarding an airplane?Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
NPR gets almost nothing from the feds, and local affiliates get only 10% from NPR.
Defund ACORN, defund NPR, and keeping subsidizing oil/coal/gas and bullshit/bogus wars. Got it. What a fucking screwed up country.
I'm glad you brought up ACORN because my thoughts yesterday were that NPR was about to get the ACORN treatment.
"The reality is that when Muslims cease to be the main perpetrators of terrorism in the world, such fears about traditional garb are bound to vanish."
While those who "fear" are undoubtedly branded Islamophobes, this is exactly what I'm getting at. Most Americans realize the robed Muslims on their planes aren't going to hijack their plane or be associated with terrorism. It doesn't stop their brains from rushing "Muslim extremist terrorist 9/11 airplane hijackers" to their thought center and releasing neurotransmitters like adrenaline.
Because you are more level headed than most Americans. That doesn't make them bigots by default.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Although Mr. Williams made a very poor choice announcing his irrationality to the general public, I daresay in a normal everyday conversation such words would go essentially unnoticed.
I disagree but if we want to discard the word bigot for the sake of the argument then whatever as long as people acknowledge its a problem. Its not the label that matters but what is being labeled that matters and the word bigot is apparently a huge thorn in people's sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
Okay, whether he's a bigot or not, I don't think he acted unnaturally. Irrationally, sure, maybe even Islamophobically. But for some, that is a natural reaction, not rooted in hate or bigotry or whatever, but a sneaking fear based on primal and biochemical urges. It's not a "black and white", cut and dry situation, is all I'm saying.
He made a bad choice announcing these things out, though. It almost sounds as if he was looking for a way out of his old job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Because you're an extra-brave little weatherman.
Thats such a cop out, in my opinion. EVERY feeling or decision we have has its roots in biochemical reaction. I refuse to just chalk this up to that. I'm not disputing what you are saying, but I am saying we need to expect more from ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sa
In essence, I agree with what you're saying and your rationalization but I also don't think its simply 9/11 that causes these type of feelings but rather our societies view of Muslims in general which I believe to be severely flawed. I think the fact that Darrin points out above how our entire society views black people in a subconscious negative light is the exact same situation.
If his reaction was based on conditioning - and I believe it is - then thats a problem.
-------
I started writing this some time ago then a patient came in and I lost my train of thought. :lol
People are so PC-sensitive about the word "bigot."
Conditioning certainly is the major player. Yet that's not entirely our media or society to blame, is it? When every terrorist threat we fear generally holds one common denominator: they're from an extremist Muslim sect?
However small a percentage, those extremely rotten apples caused the outlook on Islam to sour for Americans, especially concerning our flights (and the fact we've waged two wars over 9/11 can't ever be dismissed). Should every Muslim be branded now? Of course not, and feeling queasy for any discernible ideological reasoning is definitely bigotry. But airplanes and Muslims is a word association some Americans feel queasy making, solely because of the way we're wired, IMO.
I'm at a loss as to why you continue to try to insult me by pointing out I'm majoring in meteorology but I do find it funny. Carry on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
It's funnier because he's doing it while "working."Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Hey, I'm just joking. I actually think it's a cool profession. They didn't have that as a major where I went to school.
Well remember the context of his conversation was concerning O'Reilly's comment that "Muslims killed us on 9/11". He went on to say (paraphrasing) that we still need to keep in mind that muslims have equal constitutional rights and we shouldn't lump all muslims together bla bla bla. Nothing bigoted at all in his comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Don't know why not but she's not. Apparently, consistency is the hobgoblin of bitchy minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeyshaBlue
Maybe not. That's sort of a side point so I'll cede to your better judgment on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
The only thing that makes me angry with this entire story is that he gets a $2mil contract from FOX. Damn son. 2 million dollars to state the obvious for 10 mins a day.
"muslims have equal constitutional rights"
.. except when they, or any group, are fear-mongered and slandered into unpopularity, then all "rights" are nullified. The US Muslims are getting lynched exactly like blacks were.
"70% of Americans" doesn't mean a poll can negate Constitutional rights, especially when the Constitution unambiguously (no 2nd Amendment commas!) and forcefully protected the right to practice of religion.
Right-wingers fake their love for the Constitution unless the results aren't "popular" with them.