Oooops! That's what happens when...

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

So, as Judge Vinson said, his declaratory judgment was the functional equivalent of an injunction.

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It was basically maneuvering. As I stated, the government is not compelled to do anything since it's not an actual injunction.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

If the government proceeds "apace," the defendants will probably get an injunction without delay and, then, the government will seek a stay that's not guaranteed.

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Actually, if the States seek an injunction without delay, then the government has a reason to seek the stay on said injunction. Right now, they don't have a reason to seek such stay, since there's no actual injunction in place.

I still think the government might seek a stay to clarify the situation.

So, basically, it's exactly what I've been trying to tell you from page 3 onwards.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

It isn't an injunction. Even if the judge 'presumes it should act as one', it isn't one. He could have issued an injunction if he wanted to do that.
Read what I posted above.

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I did. What your information and Judge Vinson said are fundamentally the same. Injunctions aren't usually required in cases that involve government as the defendant because it is presumed the government defendants aren't going to go against the finding of the court.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't disagree we'll see how it plays out. I'm pretty sure this is going straight to the SCOTUS.

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That, we will.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I did. What your information and Judge Vinson said are fundamentally the same. Injunctions aren't usually required in cases that involve government as the defendant because it is presumed the government defendants aren't going to go against the finding of the court.

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The judge presumed that. It's not a law. If he wanted to order an injunction, he was within his rights to do so. He didn't.

And a stay is not required if there's no injunction in place. Thus, the government is free to continue doing what they do.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

The judge presumed that. It's not a law. If he wanted to order an injunction, he was within his rights to do so. He didn't.

And a stay is not required if there's no injunction in place. Thus, the government is free to continue doing what they do.

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I, Judge Vinson, Ilya Somin, Professor Jacobsen, and the 26 plaintiff states disagree with you, the anonymous staffer Obama paraded out to the media, and Orin Kerr (although I'm not sure Orin disagrees with Vinson on the constitutionality of Obamacare as much as he does on Vinson's rationale over the relevance of his ruling on the Commerce Clause).

So, we shall see, eh?

I will predict, however, that the individual mandate does not survive SCOTUS. It's a toss up as to whether or not, they will sever it and leave any of the rest of the law intact. Hell, even Obama has waffled on that issue.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I, Judge Vinson, Ilya Somin, Professor Jacobsen, and the 26 plaintiff states disagree with you, the anonymous staffer Obama paraded out to the media, and Orin Kerr (although I'm not sure Orin disagrees with Vinson on the constitutionality of Obamacare as much as he does on Vinson's rationale over the relevance of his ruling on the Commerce Clause).

So, we shall see, eh?

I will predict, however, that the individual mandate does not survive SCOTUS. It's a toss up as to whether or not, they will sever it and leave any of the rest of the law intact. Hell, even Obama has waffled on that issue.

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Well, they did just that with Sabarnes-Oxley fairly recently, and over the same Commerce clause. So never say never.

It'll definitely be interesting.

Well, at least one states sees Vinson's ruling as an injunction.


Wisconsin AG Declares Obamacare ‘Dead’

And, Senate Republicans are keeping their promise...

Mitch McConnell's promise kept on ObamaCare

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Thirteen Democrats won't join them, and maybe none will. But the process of pressuring vulnerable Democrats to go on the record in support of an unpopular, exorbitantly expensive and quite possibly unconstitutional statute has begun. And McConnell will do it again and again for the next two years.

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And that's why repeal actions aren't in vain. the 20 some odd Democrats up for re-election in 2012 are going to be on record after record after Congressional record as being in support of this monstrosity of a federal overreach.

And Senate Democrats are starting to feel the heat from the public, as well...

ObamaCare Repeal: Harry Reid Confronted in Gourmet Market

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In a voice that could be heard on the other side of this medium-sized food emporium, the shopper with ObamaCare Repeal on his mind -- no shrinking violet he -- loudly declared to his fellow gourmands (many in lines waiting to check-out) that indeed the graying personage standing right there amongst them was none other than "U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid," and, pointing directly at Mr. Reid, said, "This man is personally holding-up the ObamaCare Repeal bill by refusing to allow it to be brought to the floor of the U.S. Senate for a vote," and which law if left on the books "can eventually bankrupt the United States of America."

From the check-out area came applause, apparently at the spectacle.

The stony -- now red -- faced Sen. Reid, appearing both annoyed and mortified at being the focus of this unexpected public scolding in the midst of what was to be a quiet moment spent Saturday shopping, tried not to be noticed -- hard to do when one is waiting in a check-out line with someone just a few feet away loudly gesticulating and pointing.

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:lmao

More...

Ben Nelson tries to repair damage at home

If he hadn't sold his soul to Obama, there'd be nothing to repair.

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Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson and his wife were leaving dinner at a new pizza joint near their home in Omaha one night last week when a patron began complaining about Nelson’s decisive vote in favor of the Senate’s health care bill.

Other customers started booing. A woman yelled, “Get him the hell out of here!” And the Nelsons and their dining companions beat a hasty retreat.

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:lmao

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

More...

Ben Nelson tries to repair damage at home

If he hadn't sold his soul to Obama, there'd be nothing to repair.


:lmao

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stay classy conservatives..:lmao

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

And Senate Democrats are starting to feel the heat from the public, as well...

ObamaCare Repeal: Harry Reid Confronted in Gourmet Market


:lmao

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Wow conservatives won't allow people to eat or shop in peace..

typical

Reagan’s Solicitor General Charles Fried: ‘I Am Quite Sure That The Health Care Mandate Is Constitutional’

I am quite sure that the health care mandate is constitutional. … My authorities are not recent. They go back to John Marshall, who sat in the Virginia legislature at the time they ratified the Constitution, and who, in 1824, in Gibbons v. Ogden, said, regarding Congress’ Commerce power, “what is this power? It is the power to regulate. That is—to proscribe the rule by which commerce is governed.” To my mind, that is the end of the story of the constitutional basis for the mandate.

The mandate is a rule—more accurately, “part of a system of rules by which commerce is to be governed,” to quote Chief Justice Marshall. And if that weren’t enough for you—though it is enough for me—you go back to Marshall in 1819, in McCulloch v. Maryland, where he said “the powers given to the government imply the ordinary means of execution. The government which has the right to do an act”—surely, to regulate health insurance—“and has imposed on it the duty of performing that act, must, according to the dictates of reason, be allowed to select the means.” And that is the Necessary and Proper Clause. [...]

I think that one thing about Judge Vinson’s opinion, where he said that if we strike down the mandate everything else goes, shows as well as anything could that the mandate is necessary to the accomplishment of the regulation of health insurance.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/02/fried-aca/

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Wow conservatives won't allow people to eat or shop in peace..

typical

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Nice take-away, George. I expected no less.

Where else are constituents supposed to engage their elected representatives? During the health care debate, there was a virtual boycott, by Democrats, of anything that would allow for interaction between them and those they purport to represent.

One would think you'd be more concerned with a Senate majority, and their leader, that refuse to allow the repeal bill to be brought to the floor and voted on. If they're so confident in its virtue, it should be no problem.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Nice take-away, George. I expected no less.

Where else are constituents supposed to engage their elected representatives? During the health care debate, there was a virtual boycott, by Democrats, of anything that would allow for interaction between them and those they purport to represent.

One would think you'd be more concerned with a Senate majority, and their leader, that refuse to allow the repeal bill to be brought to the floor and voted on. If they're so confident in its virtue, it should be no problem.

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Reid's contituents voted him another term. According to your side's logic that would mean that they support him for not allowing the vote..

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Nice take-away, George. I expected no less.

Where else are constituents supposed to engage their elected representatives? During the health care debate, there was a virtual boycott, by Democrats, of anything that would allow for interaction between them and those they purport to represent.

One would think you'd be more concerned with a Senate majority, and their leader, that refuse to allow the repeal bill to be brought to the floor and voted on. If they're so confident in its virtue, it should be no problem.

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Please, all the Republicans did last Congress was block legislation one ankle biting method after another.

You considered them heroes for it.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Reid's contituents voted him another term. The one's harrasing him are crazy tea pottiers..

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No shit. What did that accomplish other than making other douchebags cheer?

And yes, I felt the same way about Code Pink.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Reid's contituents voted him another term. According to your side's logic that would mean that they support him for not allowing the vote..

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Can't help that Nevadans are that stupid. But, as Senate Majority leader, his constituency has expanded to more than just Nevadans. They include that guy in the gourmet food market.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Please, all the Republicans did last Congress was block legislation one ankle biting method after another.

You considered them heroes for it.

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I wished they had bitten them in the ass.

Suck it up Chump. Man-up. You still got
Harry to run interference.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

Can't help that Nevadans are that stupid. But, as Senate Majority leader, his constituency has expanded to more than just Nevadans. They include that guy in the gourmet food market.

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So now that the GOP is in control of the house they should listen to those citizens who support obamacare...

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Originally Posted by xrayzebra

I wished they had bitten them in the ass.

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tmi

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Suck it up Chump. Man-up. You still got
Harry to run interference.

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Universal health care is a fait accompli, like the ending of slavery and discrimination. Sometimes it just takes awhile for this country to get its head out of its ass.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

So now that the GOP is in control of the house they should listen to those citizens who support obamacare...

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They should be given the weight their voice command. The last poll I saw put support of Obamacare at about 13%.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

tmi

Universal health care is a fait accompli , like the ending of slavery and Jim Crow. Sometimes it just takes awhile for this country to get its head out of its ass.

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Yoni just claimed that healthcare is a privilige and if you can't afford care for your f*cked. I think the GOP needs to run on "Healthcare is a privilege not a right" in 2012...


The Dems need to make their campaign very simple and this is it. With all of the hubub of repeal I would remind the independants what the GOP considers affordable healthcare a privilege.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

They should be given the weight their voice command. The last poll I saw put support of Obamacare at about 13%.

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I'd like to see that poll.. so what if 45% feel that it shouldn't be repealed and 47% does..

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Yoni just claimed that healthcare is a privilige and if you can't afford care for your f*cked. I think the GOP needs to run on "Healthcare is a privilege not a right" in 2012...


The Dems need to make their campaign very simple and this is it. With all of the hubub of repeal I would remind the independants what the GOP considers affordable healthcare a privilege.

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Republicans simply don't value life as much as they claim to.

It's ok, hypocrisy is not a crime.

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Yoni just claimed that healthcare is a privilige and if you can't afford care for your f*cked. I think the GOP needs to run on "Healthcare is a privilege not a right" in 2012.

The Dems need to make their campaign very simple and this is it. With all of the hubub of repeal I would remind the independants what the GOP considers affordable healthcare a privilege.

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Go for it.