Is taxation moral?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

It simply won't do to define all taxation as fraudulent or confiscatory. Without the power to raise taxes there is no state.

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and yet the power to tax is the power to destroy the subject.

And even more, who has the right to make their living off of anothers toil? How many career politicians do just that?

Its a two-sided coin with no clear answer, but one which should favor the state and the individual if the constitution is to have meaning

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

It simply won't do to define all taxation as fraudulent or confiscatory. Without the power to raise taxes there is no state.

If you want to repeal the income tax, or other taxes, or limit the government more or less to the proceeds of customs house like we did in the 19th century, then please either make that argument, or address something that's already been said here.

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two things I like:

1) cap tax rates at the actual rate paid by the top 1%. (16.6% according to http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...400-taxpayers/)

And thats just on principle. It doesnt touch the moral aspect in question.

2) Consumption tax removes the link between one man's work-product and govt income. Sounds ideal really. Drawback: less predictable than income tax, and wont allow for the consistent operation of such a bloated entity as our fed gov. good thing IYAM

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Please progress past the full stop at your own peculiar set of abstractions and join the conversation. If you want others to bow to your mental icons, you'll need to explain them a little.

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

If you want to say the state has no legitimacy to tax, then you are basically in open revolt against that state.

You're basically saying the US constitutional order no longer has any moral or political legitimacy. Correct?

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Actually, the constitution clearly limits the power to tax. The open revolt against the document has been waged and won by way of SC rulings on Commerce Clause and Nec and Proper Clause (as means of sidestepping limitations on the size/scope of fed govt.)

(it seems in my old age, me and Antonin are drawing closer by the day)

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

Actually, the constitution clearly limits the power to tax.

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Please give us your take on that.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

The open revolt against the document has been waged and won by way of SC rulings on Commerce Clause and Nec and Proper Clause (as means of sidestepping limitations on the size/scope of fed govt.)

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Please name the relevant decisions and explain their importance.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

(it seems in my old age, me and Antonin are drawing closer by the day)

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How'd you like his opinion in Raich?

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

two things I like:

1) cap tax rates at the actual rate paid by the top 1%. (16.6% according to http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...400-taxpayers/)

And thats just on principle. It doesnt touch the moral aspect in question.

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What principle?




("Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - Wm. S. Burroughs)

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

2) Consumption tax removes the link between one man's work-product and govt income. Sounds ideal really. Drawback: less predictable than income tax, and wont allow for the consistent operation of such a bloated entity as our fed gov. good thing IYAM

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Drown the baby in the bathtub.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

The open revolt against the document has been waged and won

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What a relief. The war is finally over.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

I didn't think I needed to support the contention that Washington is detached from the voting public these days.

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You implied a bit more than that. You called taxation fraudulent per se, in the present context.

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

And I think the degree of detachment is more than enough to warrant the "immoral" tag.

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Who argued against it?

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

And I am sure anyone reading can think of more than 4-5 great examples.

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You cared so much you gave zero examples and I don't see any reinforcements yet.

didn't even know the war had started, much less that it was already over.

This oughta be a good one.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Fair enough. I'm all ears. Can you imagine an instance?

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I already suggested the "people choose where their taxes go", but you seem to think that form of voting is improbable.

If you take the view that all citizens are born into a contract with government through birthright, and can then break that contract by renouncing citizenship, that certainly makes taxation more "moral" and is a viewpoint I didn't look at before.

Do you have any opinions on which forms of taxation are more morally amenable to you? Or does it not make a difference?

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

honestly, I would be more sympathetic to your take RG if there was even one ounce of caution when it came to placing more power in the hands of fed govt. even some lip service would be nice.

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The executive branch by-passing the wire-tap courts is one example that needs to stop.

The de facto death sentence versus the US citizen in Yemen who is recording rants for Al Qaeda is another.

The SC decision to open campaign spending by private groups scares the shit out of me.

There is a lot of stuff that I am concerned about to a good degree.

You just have a much lower "outrage" threshold.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I already suggested the "people choose where their taxes go", but you seem to think that form of voting is improbable.

If you take the view that all citizens are born into a contract with government through birthright, and can then break that contract by renouncing citizenship, that certainly makes taxation more "moral" and is a viewpoint I didn't look at before.

Do you have any opinions on which forms of taxation are more morally amenable to you? Or does it not make a difference?

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Argh. Lunch hour is up, but there is an interesting article in this weeks economist on just this topic (i.e. ideal tax system).

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Argh. Lunch hour is up, but there is an interesting article in this weeks economist on just this topic (i.e. ideal tax system).

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I'll take a look.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I already suggested the "people choose where their taxes go", but you seem to think that form of voting is improbable.

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Don't let me stop you. Run with that if the path seems to lead somewhere.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

If you take the view that all citizens are born into a contract with government through birthright, and can then break that contract by renouncing citizenship, that certainly makes taxation more "moral" and is a viewpoint I didn't look at before.

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Not sure how it does. The responsibilities of citizenship go along with the rights/privileges. I see that as politically, not morally determined.

But I can see how the act of renouncing citizenship might have some moral element to it.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Do you have any opinions on which forms of taxation are more morally amenable to you? Or does it not make a difference?

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I'm not sure how I'd rank <forms of taxation>, but I'm pretty sure morality wouldn't be my criterion.

Conformity with the political constitution ranks way higher, but to be completely honest, I haven't done that analysis either nor do I consider myself very well suited to do it. I'm basically ignorant on the history/morphology of taxation.

To start with, a list of the <forms of taxation> to be evaluated, briefly defined, would be a help.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Don't let me stop you. Run with that if the path seems to lead somewhere.

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I'm trying. :)

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Not sure how it does. The responsibilities of citizenship go along with the rights/privileges. I see that as politically, not morally determined.

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It certainly may be controlled by political bodies, but I think it does have some moral underpinnings, as many overtly political acts do (ie. going to war, wiretapping, etc etc).

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

I'm not sure how I'd rank <forms of taxation>, but I'm pretty sure morality wouldn't be my criterion.

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Fair enough, but would you agree with the extremely generic statement that some taxation could be considered more moral than others?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

To start with, a list of the <forms of taxation> to be evaluated, briefly defined, would be a help.

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I think zosa gave a relatively good list to start from. (I'm no economist myself either; others who are better-versed can feel free to jump in!)

Income tax, inheritance tax, sales tax would be good starting points I guess.

Income tax - A tax on a citizen's work

Inheritance tax - A tax on money passed down through inheritance

Sales tax - A tax based on financial transactions/purchases

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Fair enough, but would you agree with the extremely generic statement that some taxation could be considered more moral than others?

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Sure, why not? I don't really see how that could be avoided.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Sure, why not? I don't really see how that could be avoided.

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Thanks! That's pretty much the point of the thread; to determine which forms of taxation are more "moral" than others (while trying to acknowledge that they might be political impossibilities, but putting that off to the side. Take the discussion as a thought experiment if anything.)

Once you put the whole world and the history of the whole world off to one side in {brackets}, you basically drained the subject of any interest it may have held for me.

But hey, it's yer thread. Good luck with the more {philosophical} approach. I'll follow the thread and chime in if I have anything to say.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Thanks! That's pretty much the point of the thread; to determine which forms of taxation are more "moral" than others

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you should have just asked. consumption taxes are best from a moral point of view. your welcome in advance :toast

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Originally Posted by Parker2112

consumption taxes are best from a moral point of view.

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Why?

You've shown neither that consumption taxes are moral in the first place, nor that they are morally superior to other schemes of taxation.

Instead you jumped to conclusions. Then you thanked yourself enthusiastically for being right.

Are you familiar with question-begging?

Or the basics of conversation?

BTW, did you ever Google the SC decisions that form the core of the "revolt" you said was already "waged and won" upstream, or was that more bullshit too?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Am I familiar with sarcasm?

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I don't think so.