Barkley: Ginobili is the best international player of all time

I don't know if it was posted, but Barkley and Kenny Smith were discussing last night on who is best foreign player of all time.

Kenny Smith picks Dirk, Charles picks Manu.

IMHO neither is the best of all time. Manu is such a great competitor, his lacks on offense are compensated by his effort and will to win which are probably what makes him so great. Every night he amaze me even more on how badly he wants to win. I don't know where the hell he learned to played like that.
He might be the most complete player in the NBA, the most versatile in terms of being useful to a team but I don't know if he qualifies as the best of all time. Maybe he does, and Im wrong. Certainly he deserves the discussion though. But if there's anything he's the best at is the effort to win.

Dirk is just a great offensive player but he's won nothing and he's D-less.

i think barkley just forgot about dirk and tried to cover it up.

IMHO Opinion...
Tim Duncan!
But Manu is a close 2nd. Like Tim, he plays both sides of the court.

Why Tim Duncan? Since the NBA has him officially listed as an International Player, then I can say Tim. When Tim first decided to play for the USA Senior National Men's Team in 1996, there wasn't a USVI National Men's team at the time. FIBA Rules are such that once you play for a Senior National Team, you cannot switch. When 2004 came around and the US Olympic Team was scheduled to play the USVI, Tim sat that one out.

Most think Drazen was the best.

Calling Tim an international player is like calling Kobe one.

I don't think anyone who attended 4 years of college in the US and is a citizen of the US should be considered an international player.

no sabonis?

Actually most remember Drazen as being one of the first, and most certainly, the first to make an impact. Then of course Detlef Schrempf.

The Suns brought in the first Eastern Bloc Euro player in Georgi Glouchkov in 1985-1986. He was Bulgarian and I used to hear stories about him chain smoking right up until warm-ups, light up at half-time, and then light up again once the game was over. He didn't do much for Phoenix, but he was the 1st.

Sabonis is likely better than both. He just showed up in the NBA too late.

Tough argument.

Ginobilis got the hardware to back his case.

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Originally Posted by DMC

Calling Tim an international player is like calling Kobe one.

I don't think anyone who attended 4 years of college in the US and is a citizen of the US should be considered an international player.

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You can't change your nationality or place of birth on a whim. You are who you are.

The US Virgin Islands, like Puerto Rico are part of the US but given their own special consideration. There is a Puerto Rican National Team. If Carlos Arroyo is considered an International then why can't Tim Duncan be considered the same?
Remember, Arroyo spent 4 years at an American University. So, me calling Tim an International is DIFFERENT because the NBA defined the criteria.

http://www.nba.com/news/2010-11-inte...ers/index.html
U.S. Virgin Islands Raja Bell Jazz
U.S. Virgin Islands Tim Duncan Spurs

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

no sabonis?

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sabonis and drazen are both big what ifs.. neither had the chance to showcase in there prime what they could do, one was taken too early the other was here too late. they had potential to be the greatest ones though. but as for dirk or manu, thats a good argument either way imo.

but yea drazen was a scoring and highlight machine and sabas was un real in his prime the ultimate big man and player, even as a old fart he did some amazing things:lol

He had a chance to be great, except for his reckless style of play which greatly shortened his career, Sarunas Marciulionis was Manu before Manu minus the El Latigo Dribble Move and the passing vision.

Here's a decent list of Euros who were good in the NBA.
http://live.drjays.com/index.php/201...st-generation/

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

no sabonis?

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Did anybody see this guy in his prime?

Mercy!

Probably Hakeem was the best, but every one of those guys brought something different to the table in different times.

I saw Sabas play.

Here's an old article for what Mike Fratello saw of him from some time back.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-..._1_nba-players

Hakeem Olajuwon....wow. I still got Tim at #1 but The Dream is 1-a, Ginobili is 1-b.

I'd take Manu over Drazen and Dirk. You can't statistically track Manu's value and honestly most afro american NBA players don't want to credit being outplayed, outsmarted and just not as good as Manu is. Most don't want to acknowledge how good he REALLY is but I'd take him starting a team any day.

Charles is the best, love the TNT coverage. When Ernie called out Hakeem as probably a better foreign player to Charles, he switched his question to "the best European..." ... LOL!!!

Go Argentina!!!

LOL!!!

:-D

1 hard to tell how good Sabonis was b/c he never plated vs NBA comp until late oblige when he didn't impress; can't just assume his physical gifts would translate;

2 Drazen was a great jump shooter like a young Peja but Manu is much, much more

3 Detlef was a marginally good player but no Manu

4 Dirk is every bit as good as Manu and probably better, but never had a TD or a TP

If you're counting Timmy as American then it's Olajuwon. I'd put Manu and Dirk next.

Drazen might have been the best scorer, but his defense was lacking.

Manu has never had to play in the NBA without Duncan as a teammate. That obviously contributes to his success.

I would pick Hakeem no contest- unless by international you mean players who did not go to college in the US, as well.

Hakeem Abdul

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Originally Posted by 024

i think barkley just forgot about dirk and tried to cover it up.

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I didnt watch vid, but i think CB also thought that Duncan and Hakeem don't count since they played for team USA.

Drazen Petrovic is the greatest european player to ever play the game of basketball ... he didnt have the greatest career cuz it was cut short .... but he was a better player than dirk or manu ... he was droppin 40+ pts on jordan, dumars and pippen .... all who were considered the best defenders of their time ... I doubt Manu could drop 40+ vs Lebron or Kobe and Dirk can't drop 40+ pts vs Duncan or Garnett .... maybe they could but not as consistently as Drazen could

hakeem went to college in the US and played for the US national team ... he doesn't deserve to be in this conversation

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Originally Posted by galvatron3000

I'd take Manu over Drazen and Dirk. You can't statistically track Manu's value and honestly most afro american NBA players don't want to credit being outplayed, outsmarted and just not as good as Manu is. Most don't want to acknowledge how good he REALLY is but I'd take him starting a team any day.

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What's you issue with afro-american players? I don't see what that has to do with the discussion of greatest international player of all time.

BTW, maybe at 22 years old I'm a bit too young, but I'm surprised at people saying Sabonis. I just vaguely remember him as a guy that played for Portland when I was little. And I really only remember him because of his name.

If you want to really count the international players, it's Tim or Hakeem in a landslide. No other player comes close. Patrick Ewing also counts (Jamaica), but he wasn't the caliber of Tim and Hakeem.

If you want to only count players that played in Europe before coming to the US, the I can see Gino and Dirk being in the conversation. However, Gino isn't a European player because he's from Argentina. But saying European players is most commonly referred to someone who played in the Euro leagues (like Splitter too).

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Originally Posted by cd98

1 hard to tell how good Sabonis was b/c he never plated vs NBA comp until late oblige when he didn't impress; can't just assume his physical gifts would translate;

2 Drazen was a great jump shooter like a young Peja but Manu is much, much more

3 Detlef was a marginally good player but no Manu

4 Dirk is every bit as good as Manu and probably better, but never had a TD or a TP

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Dirk is not an all aroud player, Manu can do everything on a basketball court, even feed hist team mates and contribute without having the ball in his hands.

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Originally Posted by ATXSPUR

BTW, maybe at 22 years old I'm a bit too young, but I'm surprised at people saying Sabonis. I just vaguely remember him as a guy that played for Portland when I was little. And I really only remember him because of his name.

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Living in Portland at the time I saw a quite a few games with Sabonis. To say he was a good passer is an understatement. Great hands, touch, and BB IQ. Fun to watch with his passes as Manu is. And he was a big guy. Unfortunately his knees were shot and it was the end of this career.

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Originally Posted by MmP

I don't know if it was posted, but Barkley and Kenny Smith were discussing last night on who is best foreign player of all time.

Kenny Smith picks Dirk, Charles picks Manu.

IMHO neither is the best of all time. Manu is such a great competitor, his lacks on offense are compensated by his effort and will to win which are probably what makes him so great. Every night he amaze me even more on how badly he wants to win. I don't know where the hell he learned to played like that.
He might be the most complete player in the NBA, the most versatile in terms of being useful to a team but I don't know if he qualifies as the best of all time. Maybe he does, and Im wrong. Certainly he deserves the discussion though. But if there's anything he's the best at is the effort to win.

Dirk is just a great offensive player but he's won nothing and he's D-less.

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This is like the old Wilt vs Russell debate...........


I love Wilt but i have to say, Russell was the greatest



The most talented international player of all time was

Arvydas Sabonis, the complete center , the POINt center!!!!



but i have to say,

that Manu is the greatest! the ferocious desire to win

I remember NBA people saying that Sabonis, before his knee injuries, was a bigger, more athletic, Larry Bird.

drazen was basicly the croatian version of manu, with a better 3 point shot and less drviing ability.

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Originally Posted by jjktkk

I remember NBA people saying that Sabonis, before his knee injuries, was a bigger, more athletic, Larry Bird.

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wtf , are u serious.

sabonis was a center, bird was a point guard(forward).

The word "foreign" and "international" needs planty of defining. Foreign to who and in what sense ? Hakeem/Duncan kinda foreign or Manu/Dirk type?
International ? Best international player might be Jordan since he played in Olympics, etc. International as in country v country competition

For this debate, i guess a better baromenter is someone who has played in other leagues as well as NBA in order to qualify. In that case, Manu v Dirk will be the correct matchup. Manu just edge it for me ... with all the hardware and for being a non-choker.

Manu doesn't really have the stats to back up being the best.

That said, if I have to assemble a team to win one game, or one series, and have to pick one international player ( don't count Tim, Hakeem ), then I'd take Manu, no questions asked. Dirk is great, but when his shot's not falling he's not helping much, whereas even if Manu's shot is off you know he'll still find multiple ways to contribute.

Manu is in the same tier with Nowitzki, NBA fans just don't realize it 'cause he has spent his whole career as a role player.

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Originally Posted by superfedja

I doubt Manu could drop 40+ vs Lebron or Kobe

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Manu is not a all offensive player, like Drazen Petrovic was, but he is a lot more complete.

And he did score +40 points vs Lebron once if I'm not wrong and he scored +30 vs Kobe a few times... quite impressive when your are not the first option of the team if you ask me (this is the first year Manu is unquestionably the number 1 option).
Also, the spurs where up to this year, a slow team, no the greatest place to score +40.

how about andrew gaze? olympics n wc he was postin up big ppg

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

ahhahahahahaha, Dirt is a great shooter. one of the best of all-time.

but...being 7-foot and shooting well over guys 8-icnes shorter than you is a far cry from the skillset Manu provides;

Manu is FAR better than Dirt as far as skills and talent, clutch ability, intangibles, overall Winning go.

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Originally Posted by Man In Black

I saw Sabas play.

Here's an old article for what Mike Fratello saw of him from some time back.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-..._1_nba-players

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Great players don't get bored or lazy about their game. The greatest players play just as hard in a laugher as a squeaker because it is their character, not just their skills, that set them above the rest.

Drazen could score 40 but he would let JR and Afllalo score 50.

IMO by the strictest definition of international, Hakeem is 1a and Tim is 1b.
if you only consider guys who arrived to the NBA as pros, then Dirk gets the nod. IMO both Pau and Manu are not far behind him. Also, I think Dirk is such an unconventional player that sometimes the matchup mismatches he creates can be more detrimental than beneficial, and because of that for certain teams Pau and Manu who play their positions in a more traditional style can be a better fit. But overall talent level Dirk is better than both, its just extremely rare for a guy his size to be that coordinated. he is extremely efficient and extremely consistent, Pau and Manu are better all around but Dirk's scoring advantage is too much for them to overcome.

When you consider international play, Manu is clearly the best.

I've got as much man-love for Manu as the next guy, but I've gotta disagree.

Chuck fails miserably here. He's still my boy though.

My ranking from Europe is next.

Sabonis.He was the best in Europe in the mid-90's and he wasn't in his prime.His knees were broken since 1987.

Manu was a big star here but he never was as dominant as Sabas was.

Petrovic was a beast in Europe.He had more than one game with 60 points playing euroleague.He had the best talent but he didn't play enough time in the NBA.In New Jersey he had 2 seasons over 20 ppg (20,6 and 22,3) but he was 28 and 29.His prime was over.


Imo Petrovic or Sabas still being the best players of the history from Europe but Dirk or Pau are pretty close.Same Manu but he's from South America.

Kukoc,Divac or TP were/is one step behind but close to them.

Players like Stojakovic or Radjawould be next along Navarro,Bodiroga,Djordjevic or Papaloukas .

Now there are young players like Teodosic who could be in my ranking in the future.

Danilovic,Marciulonis,Herreros,San Epifanio....some of them has to be in my list too

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Originally Posted by ploto

Manu has never had to play in the NBA without Duncan as a teammate. That obviously contributes to his success.

I would pick Hakeem no contest- unless by international you mean players who did not go to college in the US, as well.

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By being strictly logical, International player should exclude any player who was in any of the dream teams, no matter if he was born outside USA.....

That should rule out players like Tim, Kobe or the Dream....

I haven't read the whole thread, butr the few posts read say me that you're forgetting a really international player STEVE NASH...who would be in the same league as Manu or Dirk.

I also noticed the strange fact that nobody was talking about Nash.

It's always going to be hard comparing guys like Dirk and Manu because their roles have always been different. If Manu was option #1 on a team of scrubs I'm not sure he would do much. I really love having Manu on the Spurs because of his intangibles, but if others didn't carry the load for 47 minutes there would be no Manu antics in the clutch.

Yes!

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Originally Posted by 024

i think barkley just forgot about dirk and tried to cover it up.

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This.

If you HAVE to win, you put MANU in over Dirk. Manu will come up with something big whether it be a defensive steal/stop/keeping ball inbounds/charge or a shot/offensive play.

Dirk is an amazing shooter, but Manu is 10000000% heart. He could be a quadruple amputee and still do something to contribute.

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Originally Posted by Man In Black

You can't change your nationality or place of birth on a whim. You are who you are.

The US Virgin Islands, like Puerto Rico are part of the US but given their own special consideration. There is a Puerto Rican National Team. If Carlos Arroyo is considered an International then why can't Tim Duncan be considered the same?
Remember, Arroyo spent 4 years at an American University. So, me calling Tim an International is DIFFERENT because the NBA defined the criteria.

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Gee I don't know, maybe because Arroyo actually plays for Puerto Rico and not the US?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

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Really? All 17 of them?

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Originally Posted by galvatron3000

I'd take Manu over Drazen and Dirk. You can't statistically track Manu's value and honestly most afro american NBA players don't want to credit being outplayed, outsmarted and just not as good as Manu is. Most don't want to acknowledge how good he REALLY is but I'd take him starting a team any day.

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You swap manu for Dirk and you have Duncan and Dirk together. Thats a tough combo on the frontline. The spurs are deep in the backcourt, Hill and Anderson can take the minutes at the 2. Can't pass up Dirk for Manu.

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Originally Posted by Dartherus

By being strictly logical, International player should exclude any player who was in any of the dream teams, no matter if he was born outside USA.....

That should rule out players like Tim, Kobe or the Dream....

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I think becoming a naturalized citizen at the age of 30 makes one an international player.

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Gee I don't know, maybe because Arroyo actually plays for Puerto Rico and not the US?

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There no diff. except the fact the Virgin Islands never had a National basketball team when Duncan was playing for the U.S. If there was, he said he would no doubt have played on the Virgin island teams. - Thank god he didn't, he would have been the anchor of those teams and shortened his career even further.

But back to manu or Dirk? I would say Dirk because he is 7 feet tall and ungaurdable. Manu is the same way, but he has to work much harder to do those things on the court. Although I say its very very close. The way Manu can do all things on the court is just amazing, but you know Dirk can hit 3's all day where as Manu can do what he does for certain parts of the game.

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Originally Posted by Josepatches_

Petrovic was a beast in Europe.He had more than one game with 60 points playing euroleague.He had the best talent but he didn't play enough time in the NBA.In New Jersey he had 2 seasons over 20 ppg (20,6 and 22,3) but he was 28 and 29.His prime was over.

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MJ won his first ring when he was 28. Dražen was in his prime and would be a great player at least until 33. He was a great shooter and I see him just as Ray Allen who is also old, but is still one of the best shooters in this league.

Not sure where they go on the list but Gasol, Nash, Mutombo and our own Tony Parker should also be mentioned.

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Originally Posted by SpursDynasty85

There no diff. except the fact the Virgin Islands never had a National basketball team when Duncan was playing for the U.S. If there was, he said he would no doubt have played on the Virgin island teams.

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They did and he didn't.

The Virgin Islands have had a national basketball for decades. In fact, the Virgin Islands NT was in the same group as the US team led by Duncan at the 2003 FIBA Americas championship. The two teams met on August 23, 2003 with the Duncan-led Americans defeating the VI by a score of 113-55.

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Originally Posted by SpursDynasty85

There no diff. except the fact the Virgin Islands never had a National basketball team when Duncan was playing for the U.S. If there was, he said he would no doubt have played on the Virgin island teams. - Thank god he didn't, he would have been the anchor of those teams and shortened his career even further.

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Had he played for the Virgin Islands then I probably would've considered him an international player, but the fact that he hasn't, that he played for the US national team and that he played for 4 years in the NCAA and the rest of his life in the NBA makes him not an international player in my book.

The Manu/Dirk argument depends on what your team needs at the time. You can't compare Dirk and Manu straight up though........ lots of bad comparisons being drawn here.

There is no right answer. It depends on how you define it. If you count strictly any player born outside of the U.S., then it's Duncan first, then Hakeem and everyone else is a distant third.

If you say any player who attended an American university doesn't count (meaning Nash and Ewing too) then it's a different conversation, and Sabonis and Petrovic would be considered.

However, if you define it strictly as foreign born players who didn't attend a US university and who are judged strictly on what they've done in the NBA and nothing else...

then it's between Dirk, Pau and Manu, period. IMO, they're all very close and the argument of who's the best between them changes almost daily. Manu is the most complete, but he almost has to be by definition because he's a swingman.

I'd just say Dirk's the best scorer/shooter, Pau's the best big and Manu's the best all-around/clutch player and leave it at that. I guess it's a cop-out.

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Originally Posted by DAF86

Really? All 17 of them?

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Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

love me some gino, but dirk is better

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They did and he didn't.

The Virgin Islands have had a national basketball for decades. In fact, the Virgin Islands NT was in the same group as the US team led by Duncan at the 2003 FIBA Americas championship. The two teams met on August 23, 2003 with the Duncan-led Americans defeating the VI by a score of 113-55.

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I dont remember exactly what interview it was from. But in Duncan's early years, they talked about how the Virgin Islands never had a legitament national team that could play in the olympics. I don't know. I'm probably wrong about this.

But once Tim Duncan stepped into uniform for the US national team, he was no longer eligible to play for his Virgin Islands team. I also remember in that interview Tim Duncan saying he would have loved to play for the Virgin Islands basketball team because his friends were all on the team and it hurt him to beat them.

It was a real television source like TNT or NBC. I just can't find any videos or anything on it on the internet.

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Originally Posted by SpursDynasty85

I dont remember exactly what interview it was from. But in Duncan's early years, they talked about how the Virgin Islands never had a legitament national team that could play in the olympics. I don't know. I'm probably wrong about this.

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Probably they meant that they aren't good enough to get to the Olympics and/or do anything there.

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Originally Posted by SpursDynasty85

I dont remember exactly what interview it was from. But in Duncan's early years, they talked about how the Virgin Islands never had a legitament national team that could play in the olympics.

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That's not what you initially said. You said that he played for the American team because there was no team from the VI.

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That's not what you initially said. You said that he played for the American team because there was no team from the VI.

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Yea. I was definitely wrong. The reason why he chose U.S team over the V.I team wasn't very clear, and I dont remember exactly. The point I was trying to make was that Duncan said he would have chose to play with the V.I had he the opportunity. I thought the V.I didnt' have a team, I guess I was wrong.

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Probably they meant that they aren't good enough to get to the Olympics and/or do anything there.

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That would make Duncan seem like a Lebron-type bandwagoner. I don't think Duncan would do that, but again, I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Darthkiller

wtf , are u serious.

sabonis was a center, bird was a point guard(forward).

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Yes, I am serious.

Tim Duncan plays for the US National Team, that makes him from the US.

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Originally Posted by BlairForceDejuan

If you HAVE to win, you put MANU in over Dirk. Manu will come up with something big whether it be a defensive steal/stop/keeping ball inbounds/charge or a shot/offensive play.

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Or Manu will foul Dirk and the Spurs will lose the WC finals :lol

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

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Well, Dirk might be better but I don't think he is way better than Manu, IMO they're both in the tier behind the superstars, if Manu would have had the chance of beign a go to guy in his prime I know for sure that he would have been succesful, Spurs fans should know that Ginobili is underrated.

And Dirk is one of the greatest shooters of all-time but I think he's a little overrated because of this, people look at this part of his game in awe and overlook the fact that he's a below average rebounder (for a star PF), defender and passer (for any kind of player).

Disclaimer: I'm talking about the Dirk we got 'till this season, the 47% shooter, if he keeps his current crazy efficiency through the whole season he more than makes up for his shortcomings in other areas and should be the MVP.

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Originally Posted by Martin R

Tim Duncan plays for the US National Team, that makes him from the US.

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No, Duncan is from the USVI. Everyone from the USVI have US citizenship from birth. He has been a US citizen his entire life. That is irrelevant from which national team he played for at the Olympics.

fuck Chuck & kenny. kenny Smith only has a title cuz he was riding the rockets bench behind Olajuwan, Drexler, Horry, Maxwell, Thorpe, & Ellie. Chuck couldn't get it done and then tried to do it with the rockets but still coulnd'nt get it done. They dont know shit about shit.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

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I can send you my photo because I disagree.

Just ask yourself, if you had your choice of each in their prime, who would you take, in what order:

Hakeem
Dirk
Draz
Manu
Sabonis (the young one)
Nash
Pau Gasol
Zarko


I don't add Timmy to the list, but go ahead if you want to.

I think most GMs would take Hakeem because of the position he played and he's a game changer on both ends, an inside dominant player.

Now ask yourself who you would want with the lead and 13 seconds on the clock. Then ask yourself who you would want with the ball with a 1 point deficit and 13 seconds on the clock.

I would take Manu in both situations.

I think we need to stop classifying players as "international", especially when they have played in this league for 10 years. I understand the previous desire to do so when these guys were just starting to filter into the mix, but now it's like baseball. A good player is just that, regardless of where he's from. They all learn from Better Basketball staring JJ Reddick, probably the best shooter the NBA's ever seen.

If Charles is basing his assessment on championships then he is absolutely right.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

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This

IMO the best international player of all time
1a. MANU
1b. PARKER
2. Who gives a shit.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, all 17 of them.

Dirk is just a way better player than Manu. I don't even see how someone could disagree with that.

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Manu's a winner; Dirk is a loser.

That is their main difference.

And comparing a 7 footer with a guard is stupid.

Imo Manu's NBA career just doesn't stack up since he's patriotic to Argentina. Who knows what kind of numbers and awards a younger, rested, and healthy Ginobili could've put up (however Manu's PER and advanced stats are among the leagues' best)...instead he was winning and sacrificing his body for Argentina in addition to San Antonio. Then again having multiple NBA championships, Olympic Gold, etc is nothing to scoff at. I also agree with the point that the Spurs Big 3 would be hailed as HOF gods in a larger market like NY's but thats what happens in cities with a huge media infrastructure and great pride.

With the game on the line he'd be my go-to international guy though. Manu's clutch game is one of the best that the sport of basketball has ever seen.

If you watch the video posted, you will realized why Duncan or even Hakeem shouldn't be considered. They played in US college, and then NBA.
They are talking about players that played overseas before the NBA.. So it's between Drazen, Manu, Dirk, Sabonis and even Gasol. (i'm sorry if i'm forgeting someone here)

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Originally Posted by smeagol

And comparing a 7 footer with a guard is stupid.

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As is saying that Dirk's a loser. He might not be the winner Manu is but he's no loser.

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Originally Posted by Pero

As is saying that Dirk's a loser. He might not be the winner Manu is but he's no loser.

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Define loser please.

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Originally Posted by DMC

Most think Drazen was the best.

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He didn't play long enough to be considered. He was a great offensive player but did he have a complete game ? I don't think so.

Plus, just to play along, what about Olajuwon ? The guy was amazing.

For me it's Ginobili. Dirk makes a strong case but Manu's resume of being a winner outdoes Dirk by a long shot.

Drazen was an awesome shooter but sadly I have to give him a INCOMPLETE.

1.Dream
2.Manu
3.Dirk

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Originally Posted by smeagol

Define loser please.

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LOL I'm afraid I don't have a particular definition but it definitely isn't someone who carries a team of nobodies to medals. :)

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Originally Posted by tmtcsc

He didn't play long enough to be considered. He was a great offensive player but did he have a complete game ? I don't think so.

Plus, just to play along, what about Olajuwon ? The guy was amazing.

For me it's Ginobili. Dirk makes a strong case but Manu's resume of being a winner outdoes Dirk by a long shot.

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Olajuwon shouldn't be considered an international player either.

For me, Dirk is the best international player in the NBA ever. Petrovic is a what could have been, we'll never know. I guess I'd put Manu second, but if he was as durable as Dirk and the main option he'd probably be first.

1. Manu
2. Dylan
3. Dylan
4. Dylan
and Dylan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sandman

No, Duncan is from the USVI. Everyone from the USVI have US citizenship from birth. He has been a US citizen his entire life. That is irrelevant from which national team he played for at the Olympics.

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I thought once you choose to play for one of your "possible teams" you can not play for the other NT anymore.
I never ever heard jounalist referring to TD as "real" a foreign player.

Tim Duncan is the best, you must be a fool to think Dirk or Manu are best ever,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spursfan1000

Tim Duncan is the best, you must be a fool to think Dirk or Manu are best ever,

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Duncan is as foreign as Kobe or LeBron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pero

LOL I'm afraid I don't have a particular definition but it definitely isn't someone who carries a team of nobodies to medals. :)

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Dirk has been surrounded by stars and a couple of All stars. He's had all kinds of good players around him and he has never won a championship. His team has been knocked out of the playoffs by the 8th seed when they were the 1st seed and by the 7th when they were the 2nd.

He might not be a loser in the complete meaning of the word, but he is pretty damn close . . .

Manu, OTOH, is a complete winner. He's won it all. And he is a more fierce competitor than Dirk. Again, it is difficult to compare two players that play different positions and have different skill sets. In any case, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

I don't think you can define which player is better because they play different positions. Dirk is more of a mismatch, but Gino has more intangibles. Dirk has size, but Gino has heart. Dirk has been the man on his team and has lead them to many wins, but Gino has more hardware, both, NBA, Olympics, WC, and Euro leagues. That last point to me would provide some separation between to the two in my opinion.

By the one other thing I think that really separates the two is that Gino is more of a creator. Dirk is good at drawing the double and kicking out to an open man, but Gino is better with the ball in his hands and creating on his own to get his team open shots.

I know what you're thinking, that it's because Gino is a guard and Dirk is a big man, but I'd consider Duncan a creator as well. He could initiate the offense from the block. I don't think Dirk is the initiator on offense the way Duncan is, and Gino is asked to be at times.

And the reason I didn't include Nash is because he's so limited on defense that he can't be possibly in contention for best ever. The guy is a a talent, and cold blooded in the clutch, but as much of a hassle as he is on offense, he's that big of a liability on defense. And the guy is really fucking good on offense, so that should tell you what a bad defender he is.

Yo I didn't want to start a thread on this but I'm going to the game tomorrow and I have a quick question. What time do they let people file into the AT&T center on gameday?

Who was the first team to beat an NBA US team? Argentina (Manu MVP)
Who beat them again in a olympics semifinal? Argentina (Manu MVP)
These 2 achievement were done by only 1 team in the history of the game with Manu being the centerpiece.
Rings? 3
I think there's only 2 players that won NBA, Euroleague and olympic gold.. Manu is one of them..