Barkley: Ginobili is the best international player of all time

Dream, end of discussion. here is how I would judge this. Take very guy mentioned at the peak of their game and then ask the question who would be taken first in the draft. Easily no one would pass on Dream.

How anyone can not think Hakeem is not foreign is beyond me. Dude was born and raised in Nigera, just because he played college ball in the United states does not make him a American. He was still foreign and thus must get not only consideration but he was by far the best.

Timmy is from the Virgin Island, which we all know is a US territory and thus not a foreign country.

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

Or Manu will foul Dirk and the Spurs will lose the WC finals :lol

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I was waiting for someone to mention that!

I love Manu. He is my favorite player on the Spurs but Dirk is really better than him. People here just hate the Mavericks. If I have to limit it to guys who came to the NBA without any playing time in the US- high school or college- I would chose Dirk without any hesitation. Have you ever watched Dirk and a team of guys you have never heard of play for Germany?

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Originally Posted by Pero

LOL I'm afraid I don't have a particular definition but it definitely isn't someone who carries a team of nobodies to medals. :)

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Spanoulis has won more that Nowitski.

And he has done this by carrying his team.

The entire professional career of Mr Dirk Novitski will be spent trying, in vain, to win something.
Just anything, in fact.

He's a sad case.

I don't list Nowiski in the top 10 of all time Euro players.

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Originally Posted by smeagol

Duncan is as foreign as Kobe or LeBron

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Duncan is fluent in english only, while Bryant's italian is formally better than his english.

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Originally Posted by ploto

I was waiting for someone to mention that!

I love Manu. He is my favorite player on the Spurs but Dirk is really better than him. People here just hate the Mavericks. If I have to limit it to guys who came to the NBA without any playing time in the US- high school or college- I would chose Dirk without any hesitation. Have you ever watched Dirk and a team of guys you have never heard of play for Germany?

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Has Dirk won anything with Germany?

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Originally Posted by temujin

Spanoulis has won more that Nowitski.

And he has done this by carrying his team.

The entire professional career of Mr Dirk Novitski will be spent trying, in vain, to win something.
Just anything, in fact.

He's a sad case.

I don't list Nowiski in the top 10 of all time Euro players.

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LOL are you kidding me???? :lmao
Greek players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>German players

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Originally Posted by smeagol

Has Dirk won anything with Germany?

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Bronze medal in the 2002 world championship and silver medal in 2005 Eurobasket.

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Originally Posted by smeagol

Dirk has been surrounded by stars and a couple of All stars. He's had all kinds of good players around him and he has never won a championship. His team has been knocked out of the playoffs by the 8th seed when they were the 1st seed and by the 7th when they were the 2nd.

He might not be a loser in the complete meaning of the word, but he is pretty damn close . . .

Manu, OTOH, is a complete winner. He's won it all. And he is a more fierce competitor than Dirk. Again, it is difficult to compare two players that play different positions and have different skill sets. In any case, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

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I guess I somewhat agree with that but Dirk=franchise player, Manu=2nd/3rd player (till this season I suppose).

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Originally Posted by Vito Corleone

Dream, end of discussion. here is how I would judge this. Take very guy mentioned at the peak of their game and then ask the question who would be taken first in the draft. Easily no one would pass on Dream.

How anyone can not think Hakeem is not foreign is beyond me. Dude was born and raised in Nigera, just because he played college ball in the United states does not make him a American. He was still foreign and thus must get not only consideration but he was by far the best.

Timmy is from the Virgin Island, which we all know is a US territory and thus not a foreign country.

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US college, US NBA, US national team = his baskeball life is completely for/in US = not foreign.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu

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Originally Posted by ploto

I love Manu. He is my favorite player on the Spurs but Dirk is really better than him. People here just hate the Mavericks. If I have to limit it to guys who came to the NBA without any playing time in the US- high school or college- I would chose Dirk without any hesitation. Have you ever watched Dirk and a team of guys you have never heard of play for Germany?

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+1


I understand Manu Is very popular, Spurs fans see him as a god and Is almost everybody's favorite, but come on. Dirk Is a better player than Manu. Yes Manu has accomplished more with his national team but that does not mean he Is a better player than Dirk.

Duncan Is not considered an International player Imo, the Virgin Islands are part of the USA and he also played for team USA.

If Hakeem Is considered as International, and I think he should be, then he Is the best International player. Yes he too, played for team USA, but In contrary to Duncan, he does not come from US territory.

Drazen was really a great International player, maybe the best, but unfortunatelly we did not get the chance to see that and he did not get the chance to prove It. :(

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Originally Posted by Nathan Explosion

I don't think you can define which player is better because they play different positions.

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the most ridiculous thing ever


Haw can't you?

And how can you compare the players on the same positions when they played in different environment with different surrounding and with different roles and in different times?

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Originally Posted by diego

IMO by the strictest definition of international, Hakeem is 1a and Tim is 1b.
if you only consider guys who arrived to the NBA as pros, then Dirk gets the nod. IMO both Pau and Manu are not far behind him. Also, I think Dirk is such an unconventional player that sometimes the matchup mismatches he creates can be more detrimental than beneficial, and because of that for certain teams Pau and Manu who play their positions in a more traditional style can be a better fit. But overall talent level Dirk is better than both, its just extremely rare for a guy his size to be that coordinated. he is extremely efficient and extremely consistent, Pau and Manu are better all around but Dirk's scoring advantage is too much for them to overcome.

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Great post. I agree 100%. many spur fans seem to underrate dirk and overrate Manu. dont get me wrong i have mad respect for Manu and i think he is more clutch (though dirk is clutch too) and his overall game is better than dirk by far and even Pau ...but dirk has the most impact on a game over 48 mins. then either guy. And is the best player of the 3 ... even if his main value is scoring.

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Originally Posted by Pero

LOL are you kidding me???? :lmao
Greek players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>German players

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You probably don't know the difference between a player that just piles up numbers and a player that wins it.

The ball just doesn't weigh the same way in the FIRST and in the FINAL minute of an important, close game.

Dirk Nowitski is the champion of the FIRST minute of the irrelevant game.
Probably the best ever.

NOT of the final minute of an important one.

Dallas has changed just about anybody during this last decade of spectacular luxury tax failures, except two persons:
Cuban
Nowitski.

Do the math.

So, yes there are AT least 3 or 4 GREEK players I would pick BEFORE Nowitski, historically (Galis first, of course), if I wanted to start winning something relevant.
A couple of French (Parker one), a couple of Spaniards, a couple of Lithuanians, one Italian, one Russian, two Croatians and at least 5 Serbs.

That's 14, already.

And I am only talking Euros here.

Ginobliiiiiiiiiiii!!!!

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Originally Posted by Bukefal

+1


I understand Manu Is very popular, Spurs fans see him as a god and Is almost everybody's favorite, but come on. Dirk Is a better player than Manu. Yes Manu has accomplished more with his national team but that does not mean he Is a better player than Dirk.

Duncan Is not considered an International player Imo, the Virgin Islands are part of the USA and he also played for team USA.

If Hakeem Is considered as International, and I think he should be, then he Is the best International player. Yes he too, played for team USA, but In contrary to Duncan, he does not come from US territory.

Drazen was really a great International player, maybe the best, but unfortunatelly we did not get the chance to see that and he did not get the chance to prove It. :(

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If Drazen Petrovic's career had ended at 22, he would still be in this discussion.
I will never forget what I saw of him in Sibenik, age 18.

I love Manu as much as the next guy but Dirk is the better player. I still hate Dirt I mean Dirk lol

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Originally Posted by temujin

You probably don't know the difference between a player that just piles up numbers and a player that wins it.
...
Dallas has changed just about anybody during this last decade of spectacular luxury tax failures, except two persons:
Cuban
Nowitski.

Do the math.

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Please... If Manu were there instead of Dirk he wouldn't have won anything in the NBA either (and though not relevant for the NBA, would probably have zero medals in international competition)

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So, yes there are AT least 3 or 4 GREEK players I would pick BEFORE Nowitski, historically (Galis first, of course), if I wanted to start winning something relevant.
A couple of French (Parker one), a couple of Spaniards, a couple of Lithuanians, one Italian, one Russian, two Croatians and at least 5 Serbs.

That's 14, already.

And I am only talking Euros here.

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You're just being silly. Spanoulis couldn't even make it in the NBA. Parker as the player to build your team around? Maybe, but I'm not convinced he's that good. For some reason everyone is losing the sight of the fact that Dirk is someone you can build your team around, others (except maybe Gasol) aren't.

Manu is more versatile than Dirk

Dirk is just an overrated jump-shooting "big man"

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Originally Posted by Pero

Please... If Manu were there instead of Dirk he wouldn't have won anything in the NBA either (and though not relevant for the NBA, would probably have zero medals in international competition)



You're just being silly. Spanoulis couldn't even make it in the NBA. Parker as the player to build your team around? Maybe, but I'm not convinced he's that good. For some reason everyone is losing the sight of the fact that Dirk is someone you can build your team around, others (except maybe Gasol) aren't.

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1) I wrote Galis, not Spanoulis. At any rate, yes, I'd put my last play in the hands of Spanoulis rather than the big Choker.

2) As one of the US sports journalists put it: "If you want a one-on-one context, go for Wade, Lebron, Melo. If you want to win, it's Manu. I'd pick Manu and we will see what happens."

We have seen already.

PS. No mention of Nowitski, whatsoever, obviously.

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Originally Posted by temujin

1) I wrote Galis, not Spanoulis. At any rate, yes, I'd put my last play in the hands of Spanoulis rather than the big Choker.

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Sorry my mistake, you mentioned Spanoulis winning more in a previous post. Just because you'd put the ball in someones hands for the last play doesn't mean that player is better than other player. I'd put the ball in Manu's hands on the last play over a bunch of stars, it doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player than them.

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2) As one of the US sports journalists put it: "If you want a one-on-one context, go for Wade, Lebron, Melo. If you want to win, it's Manu. I'd pick Manu and we will see what happens."

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And all those players are still better than Manu.

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Originally Posted by lefty

Manu is more versatile than Dirk

Dirk is just an overrated jump-shooting "big man"

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Judging by this thread he's underrated...

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Originally Posted by Pero

Sorry my mistake, you mentioned Spanoulis winning more in a previous post. Just because you'd put the ball in someones hands for the last play doesn't mean that player is better than other player. I'd put the ball in Manu's hands on the last play over a bunch of stars, it doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player than them.




And all those players are still better than Manu.

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Amen.

We have a definition of "better" that is different, I guess.
Luckily, Spurs' is more similar to mine.
Cuban' to yours.

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Originally Posted by temujin

We have a definition of "better" that is different, I guess.

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I suppose so, there's not really much to discuss if we don't agree that the likes of Wade and LeBron are better than Manu. This is an opinion that I think is in the minority though.

I actually think Manu would have been a "franchise" player if in his younger days he played anywhere but San Antonio and for Pop and with TD.

As far as the Dirk vs. Manu, to me it's just a personal preference. There's no denying Dirk's talent, but I'd choose Manu everytime.

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Originally Posted by Pero

Bronze medal in the 2002 world championship and silver medal in 2005 Eurobasket.

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I wouldn't flash that that resume around too much . . . not very impressive . . ..