The growing hatred on Manu Ginobli

I find it amusing that we now call "flopping", what we used call
"selling the foul". I don't like to bitch about officiating, but I
don't think it's coincidence that officiating in the NBA has become
more questionable in recent years. Good players adapt to the game as it
changes, and the game unfortunately now dictates that players have to
"sell fouls" for them to be called. It's not necessarily what we as
fans want to see, but it is the way the game has evolved and we're just
going to have to live with it and hope that our players are good enough
to use it to their advantage.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

I've noticed that flopping has become bigger in the league the last couple years.

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I can seriously see the league implementing rules aimed at preventing flopping. I can also see the league changing the rules so that a defender can't be called for a foul if they do not initiate the contact--ala Reggie Miller. Wait, isn't that already a rule? :)

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This points to standard problems with the refs.

1) If you don't get knocked down hard on the floor, the refs will not call a charge. Players know this, and so the good floppers will take a hit and flop at the same time. It would help a lot if the refs would call charges regardless of whether the defender falls down.

1b) A similar thing is true in general. The refs will often not call hits, but a hit and the player's reaction. If the player doesn't react, the refs think it must not have been that bad. Again, the good floppers will time their flop with the hit.

2) We see a half-dozen replays per game where the dribbler initiates the contact and gets the foul call, and the announcers are pointing it all out, often in praise of the player. This never made sense to me.

Manu takes some shots that make me cringe. I think he shouldn't stop what he's doing as soon as the refs start calling all the flagrant fouls that don't get called on him.

Give it a couple of years of success with the Suns and suddenly everyone will notice and complain that Nash carries the ball on virtually every dribble and Amare initiates contact diving toward the basket on slams and still getting the foul call. Just give it time and success Catharsis.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

I love his energy, but HATE his energy. He doesn't just flop, he flings his arms any time he's bumped. Basketball is a contact sport, you're going to get touched. But the way he reacts is dishonest, and a little sad. I have no problem with him going 100% and dunking over players, but if you're going to try and draw a foul, at least have the respect of your opponent to let it be a legit foul instead of trying to sell it.

In game 2 Manu and Nash clipped each other's shoulders. Manu went flying to the ground as his he was hit my a semi. There is no way that Nash had the force to do that to him. Of course the ref saw the reaction and called it an offensive foul. It's that kind of stuff that drives people insane. He's good enough to play and put up the same numbers without the flops.

Just my two cents.

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You know the thing is that "all" players flop! To me, there is no degree or levels in flopping. A flop is a flop, no matter if the player is good at it or sucks at it, it's all the same. Every player, every, every, every player in ALL TEAMS flop! The Lakers, Celtics, Bulls,Sonics, Suns, and yes, the Spurs, just to name a few, they all flop! So, what is dishonest about Manu, when the players on your team flop also? Whether his arms go flying all over the place, it doesn't make a difference. Some players exaggerate more then others. If anything, Manu has probably learned that to get calls in this league, you might have to do a few things what other players in this league have been doing for a long time. So Manu is not dishonest, if he is, then so are all the players in every team. Including yours!

Fuck the haters, they are jealous of his skills, leadership, and gold medal.

Fuck 'em all.

I guarantee they would idolize Manu if he played on their team.

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Originally Posted by T Park

anyone that has a problem with Ginobili or his antics

is just secretly jealous that they dont have HIM on their team.

That simple.


If Ginobili played on the Suns Catharis would be exponging the wonderfull things about Ginobili.

In one ear out the other....

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Tpark´s right.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

Actually, on many of those fouls the call is because two hands are on him--which is viewed as holding. You can't jump as a defender with one hand in the air trying to block the shot and the other holding on to the player. But Amare doesn't get the call any more than Duncan.

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Had that happened, I'd see your point. But in neither instance that I'm talking about did that happen. Amare drew Duncan's 4th foul on a play where Duncan's feet were planted, Duncan's arms were straight up, and Amare initiated contact. Duncan doesn't get that call very often, and particularly not against superstar caliber defenders, certainly not in the WCF, and decidedly not if it's going to be the 4th foul on the defender. The same was true of the call that Amare drew on Horry in the early stages of Tuesday's game. Horry was planted and had his arms straight up in the air. Amare initiated contact and got the call.

And we haven't even discussed Q's flop at the end of the first half to draw Duncan's 3rd. Q grabbed Duncan's arm and when Timmy tried to extricate himself, Q flung himself like a rag doll. Want to talk about unlikely -- Tim Duncan is a strong man, but he's not strong enough to throw Quentin Richardson away like that.

Flops go both way.

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Originally Posted by T Park

anyone that has a problem with Ginobili or his antics

is just secretly jealous that they dont have HIM on their team.

That simple.


If Ginobili played on the Suns Catharis would be exponging the wonderfull things about Ginobili.

In one ear out the other....

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Jesus! At least read ALL of my posts before you go off. I'll steer you to it. Second post in this thread:

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But I wouldn't complain if he was on my team. :)

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Originally Posted by myhc

That and he's also a foreign player.

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Now, there´s a real reason to hate Manu! :depressed

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Originally Posted by picnroll

Give it a couple of years of success with the Suns and suddenly everyone will notice and complain that Nash carries the ball on virtually every dribble and Amare initiates contact diving toward the basket on slams and still getting the foul call. Just give it time and success Catharsis.

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I don't see it, but I also know that you can go 90 degrees with the ball and still be legal.

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Originally Posted by myhc

That and he's also a foreign player.

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Originally Posted by smeagol

Now, there´s a real reason to hate Manu! :depressed

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I don't get all this differentiation between American and International players. They're all good basketball players and they've earned a spot in the NBA. Who cares where they come from?

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

I don't see it, but I also know that you can go 90 degrees with the ball and still be legal.

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Doug Collins has already called Nash out a couple of times for his hesitation, change of direction dribble/carries. They all do it but Nash is way up there with the best of them.

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He takes away the expected outcome of a play, any play...and that is frustrating.

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Bingo.

The problem most people have is they're used to guys just coming down and either jacking up threes or going in for dunks.

With Manu, you've got a guy who does all that, plus has a mid-range game, is great at creating for teammates, always hustles all out, and oh yeah - he plays defense.

And a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the haters are fans of former or current playoff opponents, and given Manu's clutchness most have already seen their team drop a big regular season game or get dropped in a playoff series because Manu steps up and owns their prodigal son of a shooting guard who thinks defense is a four letter word.

I think Manu is someone you either love or hate. That's the way all great players are, I never liked Jordan!!

Good points everyone. It's good to be hated! :elephant

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Originally Posted by gregpschneid

I think Manu is someone you either love or hate. That's the way all great players are, I never liked Jordan!!

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I think Manu is like Mary Poppins - practically perfect in every way.

All NBA players want to be something else, usually rappers. So I see no problem with Gino acting a bit, if he wants too. ; )

Another thing that is associated with flopping, but is done by the offensive player, is when the player drives to the basket with no intentions of trying to score, but rather to draw the foul. Antonio Daniels and Ray Allen are good at going hard to the hole and fall(flop) on their own. There was one play where Allen was to far underneath the basket. His shot hit under the backboard. No one made contact with him, but yet he threw himself to the floor to draw the foul. The refs will see that, b/c it happens to fast, that they just see the end result. Sometimes I think they anticipate that a foul will be commited and call it, instead of really seeing the play.