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That was the ugliest zone defense I've ever seen. It was like the Nuggets got confused because so many of their players were so wide open. It helped stop the penetration that was killing the Spurs but, wow, that was tough to watch.
Hopefully Pop uses that ploy very, very judiciously going forward. Not all teams feature as many basketball IQ challenged players as JR Smith, Al Harrington and a handful of other Nuggets.
It was the Twilight Zone... (I have a copyright on that, btw)
Thank God for the village idiot. Not everybody has a JR Smith.
Billups was killing us, because he's twice as smart as anyone else in a Nuggets uniform.
they were confused because all they do is go to melo in 4
no melo they had no clue what to do
"Oh, my, god, they've stopped playing defense! What do we do!?"
"Miss shots!"
It was the 0zone™ (zero zone).Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
spurs won and thats what matters...stop being a party pooper
The last time I saw the Spurs zone defense was in preseason.
great zone defense
1-3-1
The Nuggets are like a lot of other teams we've faced: they shoot great when they are up, but once the Spurs started hitting, the Nuggets got nervous and everyone (ahem JR SMITH) tried to win it with one shot. The Spurs were just waiting for that implosion.
Gary Neal caught them vomiting on defense and ran his train on them.
I can't say I'm in agreement with what Pop did for the first three quarters, as he tried to manage minutes for the front half of this back-to-back, but you gotta give props when props are due.
Down nine, he goes with a lineup of Quinn, Neal, Ginobili, Bonner and Splitter to start the fourth; he then decides to go zone as his team's perimeter D was getting exposed without the size and quickness to combat a truly talented and explosive scorer at the 2/3; and it actually worked -- the Nuggets were just too wide open, I guess . . .
One more thing, Pop and Tiago should be told that Brazil will be viewing the game every game.
The only thing worst than the zone D was the man to man D. Our guards were getting killed time after time
Spurs' defense is really starting to concern me, even more than usual..
- The perimeter D is worse than the interior D at this point..
Parker's D was promising for the first 2-3 weeks of the season, but he has regressed IMO..he's still good at playing the passing lanes and picking up steals, but his 1 on 1 D and team D has been poor since his hot start..
Ginobili's D, outside of the passing lanes and picking up steals, has been atrocious all year..he constantly gets beat, and he's usually late on his rotations, just like last year..I don't know if it's because he has so much responsibility on offense, or because he isn't giving effort on D, but he needs to start playing defense..
None of the other perimeter defenders are consistent..Anderson better be good, defensively, he's the only potentially good defender on the perimeter..
- Spurs make horrible decisions defensively..
They overplay too many players IMO..stupid double teams, playing too close on the perimeter, a lot of gambling..
- Blair..he's arguably the worst defensive big man in the NBA, he is going to be exploited by any good coach..his 1 on 1 post D has improved, but his rotations are still disgusting, and his defensive IQ is extremely low..
:lol Good point. I thought our zone defense looked like trash but Denver never capitalized on it. Its like they never realized it was a zone. It took me a while to realize it also. lol
But thats what happens sometimes when you have JR as your mainforce, and a tired-looking Chauncey.
Coach Gregg "Kasparov" Popovich folks.
it was a eff'd up 1 3 1 that merged into a 1 4 sometimes...
plenty of holes for the nuggz to exploit with cuts to the basket but thank god for JR Smith and Al Harrington!
You know, you all are saying that the zone defense was awful. It may not have been a textbook zone by any stretch of the imagination, but when a team stops hitting shots after they couldn't miss, you have to credit whatever defense you're playing just a bit.
Fact is, it may not have been pretty, but it was effective. I mean, it did help the Spurs win the game, right?
Is blairs offencive IQ high?
It kinda makes sense when you think about it.
The Nuggets were picking the Spurs apart with their penetration and their passing. Billups and Lawson were getting into the lane at will, and between their dishing, the crosscourt passes, and the Spurs having to double on mismatches (Duncan on Nene, Billups posting Parker, etc), the Nuggets were literally picking the Spurs apart at the seams. They got the Spurs scrambling, then found a wide open lay up or three in the midst.
Once the Spurs went zone, they stopped scrambling. The interior was better covered, leaving no more seams for the Nuggets to abuse, even if it left the perimeter open. It took the Nuggets out of their game plan and their rhythm, and caused them to do what nothing else in the game had: it cooled them off.
If the Nuggets continue shooting like gangbusters, they win that game. But as soon as they had to change their offensive gameplan, their engine blew a gasket.
^
^agree!!!!!
I think you all need to chill out. I did my damn job. It may not be pretty, but I got it done.
Oh yea, I'm not ugly. I am beautiful to watch. Even if I had a bad hair day.... UGLY!
In fairness, Tony's D always sucks in the middle of the year. He's always been a MUCH better playoff defender than regular season.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
I do believe that both Parker and Ginobili will be playing a lot harder on D during the playoffs, but it's obviously tough to watch right now from a fan perspective, especially when the other perimeter options are weak on the defensive end..
The zone made the Nuggets their own worst enemy. The Nuggets couldn't miss a shot in the paint, so the Spurs left them wide open and dared them to shoot. I'm sure Pop didn't want wide open shooters, but that's what he got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dex
The Nuggets took what was given but couldn't capitalize. It's like in football playing nickel and daring a team to run the ball on you when you know they can't. Take the team out of its comfort zone and see how they react.
Again, it may not have been textbook, but it did help the Spurs win. Don't like the execution, but love the results.
The Zone was borne of necessity, not of any great stroke of genius. As I alluded to and Harlem expounded upon, the Spurs' perimeter D is very much a question mark and tonight was really the first time we really saw them get exposed.
They've managed to do just enough with Hill, Ginobili, Neal and Anderson (early on in the season), but they still lack the needed size and quickness on the perimeter to combat the elite 2/3s.
That's why as much as I've enjoyed this start and how much I've been encouraged by the team's collective grit, I'm still concerned with this team's championship potential if Splitter and Anderson aren't both capable of fulfilling the team's needs or the team's incapable of trading to fulfill those two needs.
But again, you gotta give credit where credit is due.
Down 9, team playing on their heels and looking like they're going to give away a key game with a tough road game tomorrow in Orlando, and you throw out a lineup of Quinn, Neal, Ginobili, Bonner and Splitter, and you go zone; when they've been killing you with the 3?
Big Nuts . . .
Good points but I disagree with your assessment of Parker's defense. He has been pretty damn good defensively this season. I was just looking at 82games earlier in the day to see if the stats back up the fact that TP is having a very good defensive season and the numbers do back it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
He's holding opposing point guards to an eFG% of around 40%, which is sick. He's also holding opposing PGs to a PER of around 12, which is also very damn good ... especially considering he's going up against starters most of the time.
Just to compare how good Parker's defense has been, look at the stats against Hill. Opposing PGs have a eFG% of 51% against him and a PER of 17.4. And that's even worse than it looks on paper because he's defending backup point guards most of the time.
Parker suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked defensively tonight against the Nuggets but his D this year has been borderline All-NBA level.
:wakeupQuote:
Originally Posted by Zone Defense
Without hill i guess the perimeter defense suffers so much....Pop had to gamble. Thank god it's the nuggets. I guess we have to employ a lot of zone drills to improve it..
True. Parker's defense during the regular season usually is pretty damn bad. And he usually picks it up in the postseason. But as of yet, I've only seen Parker's defense lower to "typical regular season" level a few games so far this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by K-State Spur
Although I'm sure we will see a streak of bored defense out of TP at some poitn . . .
The Spurs missed Hill's athleticism. Without Hill, the Spurs suddenly become a below average team in terms of athleticism. Without Hill, there was really no one to put on JR Smith when he was going off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorae
At least they won.
I can see it now, every team we face is undergoing a transition and their stars are out for some reason, so we get another ring with an asterisk. sucks..
I think we are witnessing a cause-and-effect of No Hill and Spurs perimeter defense.
The stats don't seem to back it up but as far as the product on the court goes....it's a definite correlation...
Also this is yet another point of contrast between the Spurs and the Mavs.
Rick Carlisle has gone on record saying he wants to make the Mavs the best team at Zone Defense when they need to use it.
And they are doing it.
The difference is that the Mavs know how to run the zone. And Tyson Chandler allows the zone to be a little more flexible contesting 3-point shooters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded
It's annoying and frustrating, but I'd be more concerned if they were playing their best defensive personnel and still struggling. Given the rotation they're currently going with, it's a minor miracle they're a top ten defensive team, in terms of efficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
We're not going to see shut down, vintage Spurs style defense out of this roster, but if they can be top ten without playing their best defensive personnel and with certain guys probably holding back some, then they can probably play close to top five defense if/when they start playing their best defensive personnel and everyone is going all out.
Hill AND Anderson. Also, Ginobili in particular knows he's going to play more minutes and shoulder more of an offensive burden with Hill out, so naturally he's probably not going as hard defensively.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2010122224Quote:
“I feel bad because I couldn’t help my team as much as I should against the zone situation,” Nuggets coach George Karl said. “I think if we had made some shots early they would have gone away from it. We didn’t have a lot of cohesiveness against their zone attack.”
timvp how do you fare Splitter + Duncan combination?
Hill is the new bowen. No not defensive skill wise but our dependence on him to be decent on perimeter d.
any of these combinations on the court is a win win situation for us, cause the veteran is able to cover the young bigs weakness whether its man2man or help defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by urunobili
duncan/blair, duncan/splitter, duncan/bonner
mcdyness/blair, mcd/splitter, mcd/bonner....
i dont want to see a duo of bonner/blair/splitter on the court at the same time, thats just asking for a thrashing...
as for perimeter defense im not concern cause ghill3 was out again, quin and neal has been playing good defense but slow on switches, at leasts they dont gamble on steals like gino and parker....
People need to calm down. Hill's one of our best defensive players and he didn't play at all. Dice is probably our second best defensive big and he played three minutes, saving him for Orlando. Timmy only played 27 mins, as he too was saving something for Howard.
If this was a must-win game, we would've played Denver differently. Hell, in a playoff game, Hill probably would've gutted it out on his bad foot.
I thought Denver actually had a lot better ball movement because Anthony was out. He's usually a ball stopper.
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...e-saves-spurs/Quote:
Seldom-seen zone saves Spurs
Mike Monroe
...“Yes, that’s the most zone we’ve played since I’ve been here,” said Manu Ginobili, a member of the team since 2002. “Probably not the full fourth quarter, but most. And it worked.
“Sometimes against a zone, it’s hard to get them to stop making 3s. We contested well, they missed a couple, and we got the rebounds. Huge fourth quarter. I’m still kind of in shock.”
keep lawson, nene and birdmanQuote:
Originally Posted by roycrikside
they should be findin a way to trade billups, kmart and smith to rebuild around the 3....
Watching the game live was even worse. The Nuggets took it to the rack it seemed every single time...which resulted in either a layup/dunk, a kickout for a wide open 3, or a foul call. It was absolutely horrendous to watch. Playing TD and Splitter together seemed to help some, but not completely. And I agree with you 100%, I HATE double-teaming guys who are not double-team worthy. I mean really, TD on Nene...and you bring a double team? Why? All it did was result in a wide open 3-pointer every single time...Not good. :td Hopefully this is fixed sooner rather than later...Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
I don't mind double teams when they're smart and strategically sound..
The double on Nene wasn't to help Duncan, it was because Nene is poor at handling the double team..one of the double teams was successful, because somebody came over from Nene's blind side(I don't remember which Spur, maybe Parker?), and forced a bad play from him..
The other double team on Nene(that I remember) was poor and predictable, it came from Jefferson, and it led to a wide open 3 from Denver, because Jefferson's help D didn't affect Nene at all, and he was waiting for it..
I absolutely hated when they double teamed Billups, even in the post, despite the fact that Billups has a tough time scoring at all this year..one of the doubles I remember was Manu overplaying Billups on the help, leaving JR Smith(I think it was him) completely wide open for 3, which Billups was waiting for..
The Spurs have had this problem for the past 2 years..low IQ on D and strange strategies..this team doesn't have enough athletes to close out on rotations if they mess up a gamble, so it needs to be done properly and intelligently..
Yeah it was Parker's help D that led to Nene's bad play. :tu Gotta agree with you there, I looked at my brother and said..."Wow really, double-teaming Billups?" I know he's got a size and strength advantage over TP or Neal (who was on him some), but I'll live with him working hard in the post to score rather than doubling him and it leading to a wide open 3...Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
So they didn't have athleticism on the defensive end, which could be helped by two of their better players being hurt coming back.
Now I missed the game cause in europe it was played at 3 in the morning, but, again, when did we go from winning is good to now all of a sudden winning is bad?
At least as high as your spelling IQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cessation
Does no one remember how poor the zone defense tactic was in pre-season. It was literally the worst display of zone defense I have ever seen at any level.
This team should not play zone.
eh pop always does something to one-up the other coach in attempt to throw off the other team. Works a lot, helps with such a deep team.
Overall the zone was poorly executed mainly because of late rotations and instincts. It's a shame because if we could run a good zone defense it would be great for this team since obviously our man to man defenders aren't the best anymore and have aged.
I would like to see them improve and continue to practice it periodically, but if it has a couple more showings like that than my mind could change. It's a nice tool to have to throw the opposing offense out of whack but I don't know about using it the whole 4th quarter.
Not as a primary defense, but last night the zone defense worked in that it confused Denver and stalled their offense. Never hurts to throw your opponent a curve ball every now and then.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Spurs dodged plenty of bullets last night despite the zone, not because of it in my opinion.
If they are going to run it in specific situations (like small ball), they should probably devote a little practice time to doing it correctly.
Wasn't watching the defense closely, but as you described it, it was probably terrible.....
Zone defense is very common in Europe and it was the biggest problem for USA in the Olympics or World championships this decade because they didn't have outside shooters and it was illegal in the NBA so they have to learn how to attack that defenseQuote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Explosion
The way to the rim is closed so you have to move the ball quickly to find the open man.Pop didn't want wide open shots but it's the big risk of the zone defense.It's your bet. You have to hope they miss the shots.When it happens it's hard to score.
Sometimes you needn't overthink it.
Spurs got screwed with the schedule, happens to every NBA team a couple of times a year, and the Magic were due. You don't lose 9 of 10 when you've got that much talent and expectation upon you, especially not when a tired team's coming into your building on national TV.
Pop's cracking jokes on the bench, making fun of Bonner and that pathetic foul attempt on Howard. :rollin
Wrong thread . . . :lol
Schedule has nothing to do with not showing up. Spurs have been extremely lucky these past 5 games. This is a bigger problem than their record indicates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackjack
It wasn't about not showing up tonight. There's a reason for the aberration, it's not the Spurs being unprofessional and simply not showing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Yeah, they've been plenty fortunate. And yeah, they've got needed room for improvement; 25-3 (now 4) wasn't leading me to believe this team was on its way to winning the championship as is or playing as is.
But tonight's game wasn't any indication. The Spurs have been playing at an extremely high level when it comes to maintaining focus and playing with grit, they were due for an off night -- the circumstances only conspired to make sure it'd be tonight.
“This is a different (Magic) group,” Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said before tipoff. “They’re a little more together; know what’s going on more than they did that night (against Dallas).
“The zone is not something we’re going to use very often. I think we were just as much lucky as anything else. It was a surprise more than anything. It worked for us last night, but I’m not going to take a whole lot from that.”
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...one-what-zone/