Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
The win/loss record of minorities is pretty decent. And two of them won a Super Bowl. (Dungy/Tomlin.) And another got there. (Caldwell.)
Of course, the talent on the field had nothing to do with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
So you think that the only thing that was holding back diversity in NFL head coaches was that they didn't have the confidence to apply for the job. Seems a bit naive, don't you think?
Especially when that thought process is extrapolated out to the population at large.
I never said it was the only thing.
Do I think there was a bias? Sure. But, again, it's their business, they can be biased if they want to. Their loss. They can also self-impose a Rooney Rule which, seems silly to me. If they wanted to diversify, why not just diversify? Why have a rule?
But, it's their business...
Affirmative Action in Government hiring or provision of services is another matter.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
Of course, the talent on the field had nothing to do with that.
Of course, but that doesn't explain why the NFL went from 6% of HCs being minorities to 22% or so. If these coaches are successful, then it wasn't talent holding them back, I'm assuming. Why was it that they weren't hired before the Rooney Rule?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yonivore
Do I think there was a bias? Sure. But, again, it's their business, they can be biased if they want to. Their loss. They can also self-impose a Rooney Rule which, seems silly to me. If they wanted to diversify, why not just diversify? Why have a rule?
So, you're more bothered by a rule that encourages diversification, then the fact that there might have been a bias. (Not saying it was even overt, might have been subconscious.) I think you answered your own question.
Without the rule, owners were hiring whoever they felt like, possibly causing them to be biased against minorities. With the rule, they were forced to at least interview them, giving these minority coaches an opportunity.
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
Affirmative Action in Government hiring or provision of services is another matter.
I'm just arguing about the effectiveness of the Rooney Rule in the NFL. It certainly seems to be successful in giving minority coaches opportunities, and those minority coaches have been as successful as non-minority coaches.
Do you think the league is being unfair to white coaches by forcing GMs to interview minority candidates?
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
You know, LnGrrrR, bringing up the NFL, at all, was off point.
Truth be told, they can and should be able to do whatever they want with their teams.
Did the Rooney Rule improve the game? It doesn't matter. Because they can, as far as I'm concerned discriminate against whomever they like for whatever reason they want. Some white coach who loses out because of self-imposed affirmative action is just out of luck.
Somehow, I think NFL Owners get the people they want. Were Dungy, Tomlin, or Caldwell seeking professional coaching jobs before the Rooney Rule? Were there black or minority coaches that were not hired because they were minority?
And, frankly, I can't imagine wanting to work for a business that was forced (self-imposed or not) to hire me because of my race. If there was need for the Rooney Rule that means every owner in the NFL was a racist. And, if that's not true, then black coaches just weren't applying with the right teams.
Government discrimination, on the other hand, is wrong. It says so right there in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Government is supposed to be color blind.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Soul_Patch
lol...I think the name "Bush" did more for that cause.
Yeah, that's much better.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
You know, LnGrrrR, bringing up the NFL, at all, was off point.
Truth be told, they can and should be able to do whatever they want with their teams.
Did the Rooney Rule improve the game? It doesn't matter. Because they can, as far as I'm concerned discriminate against whomever they like for whatever reason they want. Some white coach who loses out because of self-imposed affirmative action is just out of luck.
You miss the point entirely. Those white coaches "who lose out because of self-imposed affirmative action" are losing out because they never were the better candidate to begin with. The Rooney Rule doesn't force teams to hire a minority candidate. It just forces teams to actually consider a minority that they may have overlooked in the past. There are plenty of good minority candidates but because the norm is to hire white coaches minorities often aren't even given a chance to interview.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
DMX7
You miss the point entirely. Those white coaches "who lose out because of self-imposed affirmative action" are losing out because they never were the better candidate to begin with. The Rooney Rule doesn't force teams to hire a minority candidate. It just forces teams to actually consider a minority who that they may have overlooked completely in the past. There are plenty of good minority candidates but because the norm is to hire white coaches minorities often aren't even given a chance to interview.
I understand the argument, I just think it's ridiculous to believe a team owner wouldn't hire the best coach for the job period. Winning a Super Bowl is his only goal, every year. To believe otherwise is to say he would compromise his chances of winning for racism.
I don't buy it. I think I'm back leaning toward my earlier hypothesis that the Rooney Rule emboldened blacks to apply. And, if that's what it accomplished. Good.
I still don't think that's analogous to government affirmative action.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yonivore
I understand the argument, I just think it's ridiculous to believe a team owner wouldn't hire the best coach for the job period. Winning a Super Bowl is his only goal, every year. To believe otherwise is to say he would compromise his chances of winning for racism.
I don't buy it.
No, you still don't get it. The team owner or general manager does try to hire the best coach for the job. They aren't hiring mostly white head coaches because they're racists but because they aren't always properly considering minority coaches. It could be a variety of reasons like the minority coach doesn't have head coaching experience that the white head coach does. Well... how the hell is the minority coach going to get head coaching experience if he can't ever even get an interview for a head coaching job? That's just one example but the Rooney Rule is really about breaking up the culture of hiring almost exclusively white head coaches and getting GM's to think outside the box and be more open-minded.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
DMX7
No, you still don't get it. The team owner or general manager does try to hire the best coach for the job. They aren't hiring mostly white head coaches because they're racists but because they aren't always properly considering minority coaches. It could be a variety of reasons like the minority coach doesn't have head coaching experience that the white head coach does. Well... how the hell is the minority coach going to get head coaching experience if he can't ever even get an interview for a head coaching job? That's just one example but the Rooney Rule is really about breaking up the culture of hiring almost exclusively white head coaches and getting GM's to think outside the box and be more open-minded.
I see your point but, that sets it even further apart from Affirmative Action.
Affirmative Action is intended to give preference to minorities when all other factors are equal.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
If there was need for the Rooney Rule that means every owner in the NFL was a racist. And, if that's not true, then black coaches just weren't applying with the right teams.
I don't think it's so black and white, but yes, essentially that's the argument. Which do you think is more convincing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yonivore
Government discrimination, on the other hand, is wrong. It says so right there in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Government is supposed to be color blind.
I could see an argument for that. But that doesn't necessarily speak to the effectiveness of affirmative action; it's a different argument. (Which I wouldn't mind having after this one.)
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yonivore
I understand the argument, I just think it's ridiculous to believe a team owner wouldn't hire the best coach for the job period. Winning a Super Bowl is his only goal, every year. To believe otherwise is to say he would compromise his chances of winning for racism.
Not all racism is overt. In fact, most people are prejudiced in one way or another.
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
I don't buy it. I think I'm back leaning toward my earlier hypothesis that the Rooney Rule emboldened blacks to apply. And, if that's what it accomplished. Good.
That sounds far-fethced to me. I don't think blacks were less motivated to apply beforehand, but if they weren't getting chances to interview, there's not alot they can do about it.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
I see your point but, that sets it even further apart from Affirmative Action.
Affirmative Action is intended to give preference to minorities when all other factors are equal.
Would you approve of an Affirmative Action policy that relied not on quotas for filling jobs (ie. a certain % of people in a job have to be black), but quotas for interviewing candidates?
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Would you approve of an Affirmative Action policy that relied not on quotas for filling jobs (ie. a certain % of people in a job have to be black), but quotas for interviewing candidates?
So long as no one was denied an opportunity to interview? Sure. In other words, you interview whatever number of candidates is required to meet your quota without changing the qualifications.
Sure...I'd accept that.
College admissions are another matter, they're based on objective merit and there are a finite number of spots.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
So long as no one was denied an opportunity to interview? Sure. In other words, you interview whatever number of candidates is required to meet your quota without changing the qualifications.
Sure...I'd accept that.
Cool. :tu
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
College admissions are another matter, they're based on objective merit and there are a finite number of spots.
I can understand that argument. I would say that whites have other built-in factors (wealth, connections, etc etc) that have been denied to blacks simply due to historical influence. (To use the NFL as an example... look at how many coaching positions are filled by sons/brothers/etc. Are these all due to merit?)
But I think that the interview aspect, instead of the quota method, has a lot less moral issues.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Cool. :tu
I can understand that argument. I would say that whites have other built-in factors (wealth, connections, etc etc) that have been denied to blacks simply due to historical influence.
There are poor whites, probably as many as there are poor blacks, that don't have those built-in factors. In fact, I would argue it is precisely these whites that are harmed by Affirmative Action.
A rich, connected person, white or black, is going to get into college without Affirmative Action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
(To use the NFL as an example... look at how many coaching positions are filled by sons/brothers/etc. Are these all due to merit?)
I really don't thing the NFL analogy is operative. You're talking about a minute subset of the population and, a fairly elite one at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
But I think that the interview aspect, instead of the quota method, has a lot less moral issues.
Okay.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
Yonivore
There are poor whites, probably as many as there are poor blacks, that don't have those built-in factors. In fact, I would argue it is precisely these whites that are harmed by Affirmative Action.
Fair enough. Tell me Yoni, what do you think the percentage of poor whites is, as opposed to poor blacks/minorities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yonivore
A rich, connected person, white or black, is going to get into college without Affirmative Action.
Agreed. In fact, they might get in IN SPITE of their talent, given that they have connections. Agree?
Who do you think, on average, is more rich/connected? White people, or minorities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yonivore
I really don't thing the NFL analogy is operative. You're talking about a minute subset of the population and, a fairly elite one at that.
I'd say it's relevant as a working example of affirmative action. And due to its small size, its much easier to see relevant outcomes than it is on a larger scale.
But it can also be used as an example of how "Who You Know" can be more important than "What You Know". As I said, lots of family in the NFL coaching. Look at the Ryans. Look at the Harbaughs. Etc etc. Are these families jsut predisposed to coaching? Or did they happen to get their first "in" because they knew someone?
Applying that to affirmative action, minorities are the ones that don't know anybody.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
It's really come a long way. 200 years ago poor blacks worked their asses off to make middle class and wealthy white peoples lives better. Now, middle class and wealthy white people work their asses off to pay taxes to make poor blacks lives better. :lol
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
ElNono
:tu
This is where you apparently differ from Wile E Coyote...
I think this might be my favorite post ever.
Re: Affirmative Action Explained
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Fair enough. Tell me Yoni, what do you think the percentage of poor whites is, as opposed to poor blacks/minorities?
I have no idea but, it would only have to be 12.9% of the population for there to be as many poor whites as there are a total number of blacks in America.
We're not talking percentages, we're talking number of people affected by the discriminatory practices of Affirmative Action. And, in that respect, it's a 1-to-1 ratio with the white person getting the raw en of the deal. My bet is that none of them are privileged, wealthy, or connected white people either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Agreed. In fact, they might get in IN SPITE of their talent, given that they have connections. Agree?
Yep. Legacy enrollment at public institutions should be outlawed. With that said, however, if Red McCombs (or Oprah Winfrey) wants to give you tens of millions of dollars to build a Business School and Softball facility, I have no problem with you holding a slot for their progeny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Who do you think, on average, is more rich/connected? White people, or minorities?
Again, I have no idea - the subset of the population that falls in this category is so small as to not make a difference. The fight is over the thousands that suffer due to Affirmative Action and those aren't the wealthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
I'd say it's relevant as a working example of affirmative action. And due to its small size, its much easier to see relevant outcomes than it is on a larger scale.
But it can also be used as an example of how "Who You Know" can be more important than "What You Know". As I said, lots of family in the NFL coaching. Look at the Ryans. Look at the Harbaughs. Etc etc. Are these families jsut predisposed to coaching? Or did they happen to get their first "in" because they knew someone?
We simply disagree on this point. I don't think the NFL's application of the Rooney Rule has a correlation to Affirmative Action because of the small numbers and the exclusivity of those involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LnGrrrR
Applying that to affirmative action, minorities are the ones that don't know anybody.
Again, there are as many, if not more, whites that "don't know anybody" and, I would argue, these are the ones getting shafted by Affirmative Action.
Whites aren't allowed to field a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton to extort concessions on their behalf. Or a United Negro College Fund.
