...if the United States would recover and refine the oil resources it has in its own country.
OPEC ministers say world can handle $100 oil
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...if the United States would recover and refine the oil resources it has in its own country.
OPEC ministers say world can handle $100 oil
i didn't know US oil was strictly for the US.
sorry, i should have waited for jack sommerset to weigh in on this before i posted.
So Captain Right Wing thinks we should nationalize the oil industry?
Tell us how much lower the price of oil would be, yoni.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
Be specific.
No. There are private companies perfectly willing to do the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
what job? selling oil on the open market? we already have that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
OPEC is not even the largest supplier of oil in the world today.
My sources say we should hit the Pacific up. There are areas already targeted off S. California before the drilling ban took effect. You will find them near Santa Barbara. 25 oil platforms in federal waters are still producing. Piplines and other frameworks are still in place and it will not take more than 3-4-5 years to jump start production in those places. That will start to drive down the price a bit. Drill Baby Drill!!!
ANWR, The Gulf, the Pacific...Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
So how much would all that lower the price of oil, jack?
Give us a figure in dollars.
my sources lol
Not really true Yonie. OPEC drives the price train. Do American oil companies whine when the price goes up? Hell no, but they aren't a large enough portion of the worldwide oil supply to move the market.
Imagine the jobs, industry, and economic prosperity that would be fostered if we were allowed to use our resources like Mexico, Canada, and every John Cuba pimps their waters out to.
American drilling companies want back in the game and so long as the price of oil -- and the costs of drilling due to political barriers -- makes it cheaper to import than drill, that's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
Wrong. Just one member (Saudi Arabia) is the largest producer BY ITSELF.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
You can barely find a forklift or boom lift right now to rent in San Antonio because they are all down in South Texas rented to guys drilling that Eagle Ford Shale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
Wrong. I said supplier, you said producer. RIF.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
Non-Opec producers supply almost twice as much oil than Opec producers at this point in time.
I don't have anything newer, but this is up to 2004:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f/Int_oil2.gif
I also want to know how Yoni wants to force US producers to sell locally for cheap?
Isn't that anti-free market?
Why aren't them selling locally now instead of exporting it for more money?
Supply and Demand. They have to sell what little domestic oil they recover to the highest bidder in order to be profitable. Increase their ability to drill for oil here and their price will drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
yoni keeps saying the supply will rise and the price will drop.
How much do your blogs tell you the price of oil would be affected?
Give a fucking number for once.
You are still wrong. And for all practical purposes Russia is a "silent" member of OPEC as they have to support high oil/energy prices for balance of trade reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...oil-production
When Barry withdrew the executive ban on offshore drilling the price of oil dropped in price by more than 10%. Also an increase of 3 million barrels in the supply numbers versus a 3 million predicted declined. Several deepwater rigs all of a sudden in the Gulf started producing more. That's just the good old US of A annoucing they will start drilling more.
Alot of you fags hate hearing this but it's common sense if we drill more oil the price will go down.
How much, jack?Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
Give us an actual projection.
It's a fundamental economic principle, more of something drives down the price.Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
How much, yoni?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chumpster
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sommerset
So why did it go up again?
It's fun to try to tie oil prices to a single event like that, but shit simply doesn't work that way over the long run.
And you still didn't answer the question, jack.
:lmao the rest would cut production, you fucking idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
Jack's logic is the "A occurred before B, therefore A caused B"
And of course oil traders (often trading on behalf of oilcos, Wall St, and oil country sovereigh funds), detached from oil supply/demand, never have anything to do with oil prices.
Nobody has explained how domestic oil production, or sucking in that nasty EXPENSIVE stuff from oil sands in Canada, would reduce US fuel prices by even one penney, if that.
The other great thing about drilling around all of America is that the oil will never run out. EVER.
Instead of bitching, how about you go suck up all the oil still floating around the Gulf?
New resources would drive down oil prices. For the most part what keeps the oil prices going up is the opinion that they will keep going up permanently. With a large unexplored area such as the Gulf, the Pacific coming into the equation will undoubtedly knock down oil prices. It's common sense. Hopefully our new president and senate in 2012 will let the USA oil companies go hog wild.
porker Hannity "weighs" in and extends Yoni's bullshit logic that "they owe us"
HANNITY: There’s two things I said. I say why isn’t Iraq paying us back with oil, and paying every American family and their soldiers that lost loved ones or have injured soldiers — and why didn’t they pay for their own liberation? For the Kuwait oil minister — how short his memory is. You know, we have every right to go in there and frankly take all their oil and make them pay for the liberation, as these sheiks, etcetera etcetera, you know were living in hotels in London and New York, as Trump pointed out, and now they’re gouging us and saying ‘oh of course we can withstand [these prices].’”
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/14/...y-invade-iraq/
You still don't get it. Supply is not the same as production.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
Adding the OPEC countries production from your linked chart adds up to about 34,000,000 bbl/day out of a total of 84,789,040 bbl/day.
Meaning, there's nearly 50,000,000 bbl/day produced by non-OPEC countries.
Russia is not an OPEC member and pretty much all oil producers support high oil/energy prices (including the US) for the same balance of trade reasons (the only exception might be China). There's also other reasons, like currency that are a factor. Most countries deal in US dollars as the oil trade currency, and the swings on the currency impact the price of energy too. A few countries (Iran, Venezuela) have actually shifted to Euros. Iraq was about to do the same when it was invaded.
The reduction of future contracts due to the world recession is what drove down prices, along with reduced production.
It also overlapped the discovery of a brand new massive well in Brazil, estimated to contain up to 15 billions barrels.
You still haven't answered, jack.Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
stop stealing thoughts and just admit that oil producing countries would cut their production.Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
oops, i almost forgot this was jack.
why wasn't Hannity asking this when W was still in office?Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons_deux
Hannity's a douche.
How old are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Do you remember that Iraq invaded and conquered Kuwait which started all this shit?
Yeah, but daddy Bush was the smart one then... He kicked ass and pulled out...Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
This shit again? Its just wrong. There is not enough new supply to make the price drop even if we open it all up. The idea that the US is sitting on some vast supply of oil that we refuse to access is bullshit through and through.
So sick of the same old regurgitated bullshit that makes the same incorrect talking points over and over.
Remember the lefts political rhetoric back then, "USA wants to contol the oil!!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
Remember when the left held all those protest against the war? Good days!!!
39.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
yes.
I was referencing where Hannity was asking why Iraq didn't pay for their own liberation.
selective memory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
no.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
selective reading or just reading comprehension failure?
So we can pull all our troops out of the region then?Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
Leave no military presence or regional influence at all?
Great. Is Palin advocating that?
"USA wants to contol the oil"
Of course the Repugs and US/UK oilcos wanted the oil, (or do you dumbfucks still believe the Repug LIES about "democracy" in M-E? :lol ) but their hubris and imperialism got kicked in the balls.
Finally, after 100s of 1000s of dead and US/UK $Ts wasted, Iraq still did deals with Russia, France, and China just as Saddam was doing in Feb 03 to the exclusion of US/UK oilcos.
Just because the US/UK failed to control the Iraq/M-E oil doesn't mean they didn't want to. Lookup the kind of Iraqi oil contracts, abandoned by all other oil producing countries, the US/UK oilcos wanted before the Iraqi oil UNIONS stopped them.
Having US oil companies being able to move regulations away and drill domestically would save tremendously on shipping costs and other fees.
Just the fact that we would have more supply into the market would lower the price of oil.
How much, gtown?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
How much, gtown?Quote:
Just the fact that we would have more supply into the market would lower the price of oil.
Whatever the market values it to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
How much lower would the market value it to be with the changes you described in your post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
Let us know what kind of numbers we can see with these dramatic changes you describe compared to what we have now. The world wants to know and you will make a much stronger case if you can actually quantify it to a certain degree. No one is asking for exact numbers -- just ballpark it for us.
My argument isn't based on quantity, that's your argument. My argument is based on proven economic law that increased supply lowers price. But even if lets say we were to have close to 90 percent output of our oil supply, demand is not stagnant like your question implies. The demand for oil will increase thus raising the price.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
I advocate drilling in our land as a right, damn what the environmentalist say. And if you removed regulations and law banning offshore drilling, it would be feasible and we could have more jobs. How many exact jobs, i don't know.
Your question implies that one has to be an expert or a researcher in the field to even discuss things with you. I don't know if anyone is, or if you are either. What you're asking is not unreasonable, the question itself is not an unreasonable one. But your inferrence and your implication is unreasonable. No one in here claims to be fellow at an institute for which even they, pro or con on the debate couldn't accurately predict the quantity you want.
what happens to the price when oil producing countries cut their production?
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
Tell that to the people in the Gulf Coast fishing and tourism industries.
Chump, it's not fair to ask right-wingers for facts. They live in fantasy land, making up whatever shit suits their emotions and ideology.
Obviously someone in some institute has done something along these lines. Why do we never read these things here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
It could be that it wouldn't make as much of a difference as some here would like to believe.
Also, assuming that production would skyrocket just because areas were open might not even be realistic. If the price of oil goes down to a certain level, it doesn't make economic sense to extract it from many areas. Production could decrease until the price goes up again.
And no one has taken refining into consideration either. I might buy a pure crude oil supply and demand model others are trying to push here if utilization of US refining capacity hadn't gone down last month.
You have simply oversimplified the issue.
First of all, i listed the fact that because demand is rising, it would be hard to lower oil prices for long to past levels, and that we can't predict exact figures because of too many variables.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
You have simply not read my response.
Also I'd like to add that I'm for the right of american citizens, and companies to drill on our shores regardless of price. Since you or i don't know the exact figures or what types of oil could be extracted, along with other details, none of us are gonna convince each other.
Is there an institute you'd like to show to prove your point saying that opening our shores to oil would raise the price of oil?
I don't have to tell them anything, trade with China for cheaper shellfish will be the end of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby
Can you get fresher shellfish from China?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
Did the closest market for gulf seafood suddenly go away? :hat
It's not like the preference for fresher food is destroyed by cheaper frozen Chinese shellfish, still less the willingness to pay for quality, the scenic beach rental and the frou-frou restaurant.
I'm confused, are you for importing cheap chinese shellfish? Did you give up on the Whig party thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
That's ok with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
What party? I never came across any other Whigs. :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
I originally conceived it as a themed drinking club anyway. Whatever the virtues of whiggism may be, it's not a very sturdy platform for a 21st century political movement.
(Hell, I couldn't even sell it to my drinking buddies. :lmao )
The way to do it would be to develop a line of kitschy merchandise. Hipsters with highly evolved joke religions will eventually feel the need to start joining ersatz political movements. So will a lot of other pretenders and disaffected people.
With the right marketing and merchandise behind it, Whiggism could perhaps make a minor comeback. (The owl is more or less fine, use it. The log cabin and barrel of hard cider would probably have to be repackaged for the 21st century, tho. Easy-up and a beer keg?)
I didn't say it would raise the price of oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
You simply have not read my response.
http://www.swed.pl/catalog/cat_1132057427.jpg
You pretend there aren't a half dozen countries already out there drilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby
Good, and no one claimed to know the exact amount of prices resulting in allowing offshore drilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
You seem to take it real personally when your own medicine is applied to yourself.
Oil executive A: You know, we could make a LOT of money if we could drill offshore. Too bad the government won't let us.
Oil executive B: Yeah, I know. People worry way too much about our past spills. I wish we could think of a way to get that ban lifted.
Marketing Guy: We just need to think of an argument that we can attach to some hot-button emotion. Those make for the most effective slogans. All you need is some hook that will lure people in and get them to repeat it.
Oil executive A: Hmmm. Well, if could drill there, we could slightly increase production over the medium term.
Marketing Guy: That's IT! We claim that letting us drill in those areas increases supply!
Oil executive B: I guess it will, but only by a fairly small percentage globally. I mean, even if we doubled our production, we would only be producing a fraction of what the rest of the world does.
Oil executive A: Yeah, we would still have to import some oil, and would still be subject to the global nature of the oil market. Global supply, global demand, global prices. The only way to avoid that would be to somehow get the government to grant us a monopoly and prohibit all oil imports. Nice, but not even our lobbyists could get that through.
Marketing guy: Well, that is the brilliance of that slogan. It has a grain of truth, but leaves out the part that doesn't support our goals.
Oil executive B: True. The average person in the US barely can find the rest of the world on a map, much less knows how much oil we produce or import relative to the global supply.
Marketing guy: Exactly. The actual effect might be what exactly?
Oil executive A: A few pennies at the retail level, if that, given total global supply and total global demand.
Marketing guy: We'll leave that part out. "Increasing supply" is easy to understand, easily repeatable, and works for us. If we work hard we can attach it not only to the unquestioning worship of the "free market", but to patriotism or something.
Oil executive B: Marketing Guy, I think we can slide you a bigger bonus this year. It takes a special kind of evil to take advantage of people's stupidity.
Oil executive A: This just sets the bar for next year pretty high. You're going to have to work especially hard to top that.
Marketing guy: Well, I have been working on a little project that lets us blame the government for our oil spills...
Oil executive B: Maybe next year. For now, let's hammer on the "more drilling is more supply" thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Did you read this to your cuckolding wife and her lover while they were plowing and you were cowering in the corner?
Let's get a couple of things back into focus.
1) Oil is a global commodity. Price is determined by total global supply and total global supply.
2) US production represents a fraction, 10% or so if memory serves, of global production. Even if we were to instantly double that, all other things held equal it would only amount to 18% of global production.
The best analogy I have heard is that oil gets dumped into a giant bathtub by producers, and buyers simply open up the spigot to get what they want to buy.
You can't differentiate who produced what at the spigot. (see "fungible")
Nah, I read it to your girlfriend while you were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
:rolleyes
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/...oil-production
US supplies 10% of global total. (2007 data)
We do that using oil platforms that cost $1bn to build. That makes the oil we do produce a bit more expensive on a per barrel basis than a lot of other sources.
Such costs are very small relative to the total costs of production, from what I understand after having read a few oil company annual reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-e...gas-price1.htm
•Distribution and Marketing: 11 cents (out of a dollar)
Distribution and marketing - Crude oil is transported to refineries, and gasoline is shipped from the refineries to distribution points and then to gas stations. The price of transportation is passed along to the consumer. Marketing the brand of the oil company is also added into the cost of the gasoline you buy.
11% of the price of gasoline includes transportation of finished product and marketing costs.
So the ultimate amount saved would have to be less than 11%.
To be fair call transportation half of that. 5.5%
Now transporting gasoline by truck is WAY more expensive than tranporting crude in huge tankers, per gallon, even if the distance is shorter.
Let's say half of that was transportation costs of the crude oil. 2.75%
Some of that woulld still be needed simply to get it from the oil platform to the refineries in the US. Drilling it offshore would save shipping from our main supplier, Venezuala, but not by much.
Call it, to be generous, half of that. 1.375% That's just of the COST.
Remember retail prices of finished goods get a hefty mark-up. End result would be somewhere on the order of reducing costs of gas by 1% or so, using reasonable/generous assumptions.
Sure it would reduce OIL costs in the US by a percentage point or two, at best.
This would be offset by the massive capital investment required. New deepwater oil platforms cost on the order of a $1,000,000,000 each or so.
and oil platforms take 5 to 10 years to start producing.
the entire planet is screwed, since it's addicted to (cheap) oil, and there is no alternative energy that scales up as a fuel to replace oil for transport. eg, there's not enough lithium on the planet to convert all cars to full electric and there's not enough uranium to power McLiar's 100-nukelar plant fantasy. More immediately, the financial sector won't finance power plants because they get higher, quicker returns in their rigged/secret casino markets.
Repent, The End Is Near(er than the gutless, lying politicans tell us).
RG claims the world will run out of oil when his granddaughter turns 16. Nuff said.
Weak straw man attempt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
Why? There are several countries already drilling in the very same Gulf of Mexico.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby
are those non-US Gulf of MX drillers actually producing oil?
we wouldn't be in this mess if we didn't start an unecessary war
:lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro
What a fucking idiot.
OPEC has been manipulating oil prices long before Iraq and Afghanistan...
Knee meet jerk. Pavlov meet dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro
You claimed it would definitely go down. I said it could conceivably go up. Yours was a lazy argument that was easily picked apart, mainly because you don't know what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignignokt
You seem to take it real personally when you are shown to be less intelligent and knowledgeable than you think you are.Quote:
You seem to take it real personally when your own medicine is applied to yourself.
Where did I imply that there aren't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
Then why is pointing out that drilling is already taking place in the Gulf a straw man to your assertion the Gulf business and tourist industries would be more affected by our resuming Gulf oil exploration?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby
because I was responding to the claim originally posted by Ignignokt that "if you removed regulations and law banning offshore drilling, it would be feasible and we could have more jobs."Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonivore
I'm not asserting that other countries don't already drill there, but that weaker regulations will result in a greater chance of more oil spills (whether other countries are drilling there or not).
No. There is a massive amount of oil out there. There will be oil still in the ground when my grandkids are bouncing *their* grandkids on their knees.Quote:
Originally Posted by jack sommerset
What will change in my lifetime and make my grandchildren's lives much different is that long before we run out that oil remains will become less and less economical, relative to alternatives, to extract and utilize.
Declining supply coupled with increased demand = higher price point. Nothing earth-shattering about that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, this isn't some civilization "death spiral" that a lot of the hand-wavers push, this is simply a re-alignment, driven by pure market forces. We will still get energy, just shift to different sources.
Energy is energy. Oil is just ONE form of it that we can tap into.
All the drilling offshore of the US will STILL not be enough to make more than a small dent in either oil or gasoline prices.
Deal with that reality.
The ironic thing is that by unrestricted drilling, we are choosing some types of jobs over others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby
This is ironic, because the OP probably is one of those "government shouldn't choose winners and loser" types.
Unrestricted drilling means choosing oil jobs over fishing/tourism/green jobs.
An uncomfortable thing for such ideologues to accept. This is why they very loudly deny it or try to spin it differently.
Why? Both coexist fine...with the occasional bump in the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Would the fishing/tourism/green jobs be less impacted if a Mexican well blew out?
the other messes dumbass.. budget, deficit, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
I think the oil left in north america can run my car for about a week.
stfu. yawnivore.