Cloak and Dagger: US, Pakistan ties strained over diplomat-involved shooting

Quote:

---

U.S.-Pakistan Tensions Grow Over Diplomat

Aid Program's Effect Also Questioned



By ZAHID HUSSAIN And TOM WRIGHT

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—The U.S. is threatening to cancel a high-level meeting involving Pakistan in Washington to protest Pakistan's continued detention of a U.S. diplomat who shot dead two armed men in Lahore in late January.


Separately, an American government assessment said a $7.5 billion, five-year civilian-aid program for Pakistan has failed to show it is achieving its goals since Congress approved the package in late 2009.


The Obama administration is hoping the aid program will help stabilize the fragile, strategically important country and boost America's image. The program focuses on funding visible infrastructure like bridges, roads and power plants.



But that strategy has faced a number of obstacles, including an Islamist insurgency that has made it dangerous for aid personnel to operate in some parts of the country. The U.S. remains deeply unpopular, in part due to strikes by unmanned Central Intelligence Agency drones against Taliban militants on the border with Afghanistan that have also killed civilians.



Pakistan, Afghanistan and U.S. officials were set to meet this month in Washington to discuss the war in Afghanistan. But Pakistani officials said the U.S. had conveyed its decision to cancel the meeting if the detained American diplomat, named by Pakistan as Raymond Davis, wasn't released.


A spokeswoman for the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said Washington hadn't yet officially decided when to hold the meeting.


Mr. Davis shot dead the two men after they approached his car armed with weapons. Police say the men had earlier robbed others in Lahore. A U.S. consular vehicle that came to aid Mr. Davis knocked over and killed a bystander. The driver of the second car escaped, but Mr. Davis was arrested.


The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad says Mr. Davis acted in self-defense and is covered by diplomatic immunity. But a Pakistani court last week remanded Mr. Davis in police custody and put his name on a list banning him from leaving the country.


Mr. Davis is to appear in court again Friday; he hasn't been formally charged with any crime.


The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter, met President Asif Ali Zardari on Monday to push for Mr. Davis's release, the U.S. Embassy spokeswoman said.



Mr. Zardari has publicly said Pakistan's justice system should be allowed to run its course. Protests calling for Mr. Davis to be tried locally have broken out in Lahore since late January.


The situation became more volatile over the weekend after the widow of one of the alleged gunmen killed in the incident committed suicide Sunday by taking insecticide.



Just before her death, while in the hospital, she told local television she feared Mr. Davis would be set free. Hundreds of people chanting anti-American slogans attended her funeral Sunday in Faisalabad.
Mr. Zardari must balance the demands of Pakistan's streets with an increasingly irritated U.S.


Growing anti-American sentiment in the country is a cause of serious concern to the U.S., which needs Pakistan's cooperation to fight Taliban militants that shelter on its soil.


The report on American aid to Pakistan, released jointly by the Office of Inspector General of the U.S. Agency for International Development, the Department of State and Department of Defense, found U.S. aid officials on the ground in Pakistan had failed to supply data to allow a systematic evaluation of whether the assistance was helping stabilize the nation.
The report found that USAID, the lead U.S. government agency for overseeing foreign civilian assistance, has been unable to recruit sufficient staff to oversee its Pakistan program.


The U.S. has moved to change the way it distributes aid, funneling more money through the Pakistan government and local organizations rather than international contractors.

---

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB2000...526001226.html

It's always fun to turn this around.

What if Pakistani "diplomat" shot dead two "robbers" in USA.
Would the US let him escape under diplomatic immunity?

The Obama administration is hoping the aid program will help stabilize the fragile, strategically important country and boost America's image.

Paying to be popular has never worked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boutons_deux

It's always fun to turn this around.

What if Pakistani "diplomat" shot dead two "robbers" in USA.
Would the US let him escape under diplomatic immunity?

---

I would imagine we'd expect him to go through the courts just as they expect him to do likewise over there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

Paying to be popular has never worked.

---

Targeted assassinations and unarmed drones on Pakistani soil put together with long standing US support of Pakistani military and intelligence, aren't exactly a recipe for popularity either.

The sky is blue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boutons_deux

It's always fun to turn this around.

What if Pakistani "diplomat" shot dead two "robbers" in USA.
Would the US let him escape under diplomatic immunity?

---

If the robbers were armed, and chasing him on a motorcycle, I doubt we would really bat an eyelash.

Now, if someone from Pakistani intelligence ran over an American pedestrian, trying to get to their guy, we would be pissed, and rightfully so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

The Obama administration is hoping the aid program will help stabilize the fragile, strategically important country and boost America's image.

Paying to be popular has never worked.

---

Except in Iraq...

If one is fighting the idea that one is evil, helping farmers and building schools would seem to fight that idea, would it not?

That's some pretty good shootin for a diplomat.

Quote:

---

Armed motocycle guys=0

US diplomat in a rented car=2

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

The sky is blue.

---

Mere generalization deserves more of the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winehole23

Targeted assassinations and unarmed drones on Pakistani soil put together with long standing US support of Pakistani military and intelligence, aren't exactly a recipe for popularity either.

---

Nope.

Quite frankly, given the depth of the average Pakistani's hatred for the US, we should have been massively engaging them a long time ago.

I think that Pakistan will end up being lost to us as an ally within 5-10 years, and will turn around to be a Sunni version of Iran, armed with nukes. (edit) They are rapidly sinking into fundamentalism.(/edit)

We need to double or triple our aid to Pakistan, coordiated with NGOs to avoid this. I don't see that happening, no matter how good it would be for our long term interests.

Time to start getting chummy with India.

Quote:

---

Time to start getting chummy with India.

---

I thought we already did with the recent nuke accord.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Except in Iraq...

If one is fighting the idea that one is evil, helping farmers and building schools would seem to fight that idea, would it not?

---

We've been doing that around the world for decades. How's our global popularity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

We've been doing that around the world for decades. How's our global popularity?

---

It actually wasn't too bad before 2003 or so, IIRC.

I guess we received a bump after Obama was elected, as well.

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/10...s-the-pop.html

Maybe, but the Yankees and Lakers are consistently both among the top in favorite and most hated teams at the same time. I'm really not worried about if the farmer or vendor likes us, its the leaders and terrorists groups that concern me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

Maybe, but the Yankees and Lakers are consistently both among the top in favorite and most hated teams at the same time. I'm really not worried about if the farmer or vendor likes us, its the leaders and terrorists groups that concern me.

---

Well, like you pointed out, a winner tends to grate on people. No way to prevent that, though. Terrorists will attack us if we continue to project world power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Well, like you pointed out, a winner tends to grate on people. No way to prevent that, though. Terrorists will attack us if we continue to project world power.

---

Terrorists will continue to attack countries with strong Christian/Judea values.

It ain't about popularity, anyway. That war can't be won and even if it could, it would not appear we are presently at any great pains to correct the (tragically mistaken) impression we don't really care about ordinary Pakistanis.

(lukewarm response to recent catastrophic floods, looking at you)

Allegiance to the US is destabilizing, disastrous really, for the legitimacy of civilian government in Pakistan. But it is also indispensable. For the time being.

Even if Pakistan becomes a "Sunni version of Iran" the power behind the power will still be the military. Does the military vanish into the Islamic state, or is it the other way around?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Terrorists will continue to attack countries with strong Christian/Judea values.

---

this country doesn't have strong christian values.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I guess we received a bump after Obama was elected, as well.

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/10...s-the-pop.html

---

I counter you with this:

Nuze 2/8/11

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clambake

this country doesn't have strong christian values.

---

Stronger than you realize, and more than the extremists will tolerate. Besides, we have the largest Jewish population in the world.

The military has never really stopped being in control of Pakistan, since the arguments with India have, before the last couple of years, been the most important foreign affairs issue in Pakistan. The fights over the Cashmir territories have done more to poison the Pakistanis' view of every other country than any thing else. (the friend of my enemy is my enemy, e.g.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I counter you with this:

Nuze 2/8/11

---

I don't see how that counters the idea that US got a popularity bump after Obama was elected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

I don't see how that counters the idea that US got a popularity bump after Obama was elected.

---

I didn't mean it as a rebuttal, but a more recent "Nuze" item.

Yours was old. Did you actually get the intent of your posting?

Has there been much on Obama's address to the Chamber of Commerce?

Probably the toughest audience he had in a long time. I wonder how many bit their teeth to beep from booing him?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I didn't mean it as a rebuttal, but a more recent "Nuze" item.

Yours was old. Did you actually get the intent of your posting?

Has there been much on Obama's address to the Chamber of Commerce?

Probably the toughest audience he had in a long time. I wonder how many bit their teeth to beep from booing him?

---

Yes, it was somewhat old, but the Nation Brand Index still had us at number 1 for 2010 as well.

I'm sure that some countries aren't fond of Obama. But Boortz likes to have his cake and eat it too. If countries like the US, it's because Obama projects weakness and they're happy about it. If countries DON'T like the US, it's proof positive that Obama is a poor leader and our allies can't trust him to lead.

I was flabbergasted that Obama chose to escalate the covert war we have been waging against our ally, Pakistan, in their own country. Struck me as a poor decision all around, more driven by the bravura of his own campaign than any sound principle of war or strategery.

Quote:

---

...burp.

---

Quote:

---

According to two officials close to Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari, the White House has threatened to shut the U.S.'s three consulates in Pakistan and postpone the official bilateral, strategic dialogue, as well as Zardari's upcoming trip to Washington, D.C.

---

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ray-da...2869411&page=1

Quote:

---

That the ISI sent the equivalent of two hired guns to trail Davis is a sign that the relationship between the U.S. and Pakistani intelligence agencies is at a low point, according to all four officials quoted in this article. In October, the ISI helped reveal the name of the CIA station chief -- inadvertently, according to a separate, senior Pakistani official -- forcing the station chief to leave the country.

---

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ray-da...2869411&page=2

This is such a shit sandwich... we keep throwing gazillion of dollars to try to buy popularity, but a good chunk most likely ends up in the hands of ISI and corrupt politicians, and I'm pretty sure some end up funding the bad guys.
On the other hand, we can't just turn around and cut ties with them, or change their status to flat-out terrerist-harboring enemy (even tho technically they are), because of the nuke situation there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

Maybe, but the Yankees and Lakers are consistently both among the top in favorite and most hated teams at the same time. I'm really not worried about if the farmer or vendor likes us, its the leaders and terrorists groups that concern me.

---

except in pre-Bush years USA was highly respected and looked up to for years and years around the world. So the comparison to the Yankees/Lakers is failed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winehole23

I was flabbergasted that Obama chose to escalate the covert war we have been waging against our ally, Pakistan, in their own country. Struck me as a poor decision all around, more driven by the bravura of his own campaign than any sound principle of war or strategery.

---

Could it have been to have cause to make the patriot act work against us citizens?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Could it have been to have cause to make the patriot act work against us citizens?

---

Doubt it.The Patriot Act was already working aganist us just fine.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/01...i-intelligence

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Could it have been to have cause to make the patriot act work against us citizens?

---

The Patriot Act is already being used against US citizens.

Quote:

---

U.S.-Pakistan Row Intensifies

Washington Scraps Talks, Citing 'Political Changes' Amid American's Detention


By ZAHID HUSSAIN

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—The U.S. canceled talks in Washington involving Pakistan due to an escalating diplomatic row over the detention last month of an American employed by the U.S. government who shot dead two armed men.




http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0213172432.jpg
AFP/Getty Images Paramilitary soldiers take positions on Sunday outside Kot Lakhpat prison in Lahore, where U.S. government employee Raymond Davis is held.




http://si.wsj.net/img/BTN_insetClose.gif
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0213083820.jpgA U.S. State Department statement Sunday said the high-level meeting involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the U.S. was called off "in light of the political changes in Pakistan." Pakistan's government Friday announced cabinet changes that removed A U.S. State Department statement Sunday said the high-level meeting involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the U.S. was called off "in light of the political changes in Pakistan." Pakistan's government Friday announced cabinet changes that removed Shah Mahmood Qureshi, the country's former foreign minister, from his post.
But a senior Pakistan foreign ministry official said Washington's cancellation of the meeting was intended to pressure Pakistan to release the U.S. government employeShah Mahmood Qureshi, the country's former foreign minister, from his post.





A U.S. State Department statement Sunday said the high-level meeting involving Pakistan, Afghanistan and the U.S. was called off "in light of the political changes in Pakistan." Pakistan's government Friday announced cabinet changes that removed Shah Mahmood Qureshi, the country's former foreign minister, from his post.

But a senior Pakistan foreign ministry official said Washington's cancellation of the meeting was intended to pressure Pakistan to release the U.S. government employee.



Pakistan police say preliminary investigations have shown the man, who they have named as Raymond Davis, is likely to be charged soon with murder.



Pakistani authorities say Mr. Davis is an employee of a U.S.-based security company who was working under contract for the U.S. government in Pakistan.
The U.S. government has given few details about the man, who it hasn't named.



The embassy in Islamabad said the man, who it claims fired in self-defense, is covered by diplomatic immunity and should be immediately released.


Pakistani officials have publicly questioned whether Mr. Davis acted in self-defense and have said he may have known the attackers, but they have given no clear picture of what they think occurred.



The U.S. last week suspended several bilateral engagements with Pakistan after a high court barred Pakistan's government from releasing Mr. Davis, Pakistani officials said.


Abdul Basit, a Pakistani foreign ministry spokesman, said the cancellation of the Washington meeting won't affect the long-term strategic partnership between the two nations.



Pakistani officials said the Obama administration also has threatened to call off an upcoming state visit to Washington by President Asif Ali Zardari if the standoff over Mr. Davis doesn't end.



The visit was expected to take place in March, though no date was fixed.
No official at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad was available for comment.


Mr. Davis shot and killed two gunmen who tried to intercept his car in a congested market place in the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore on Jan. 27. A second car, which came to extricate Mr. Davis from the situation, ran over and killed a bystander. Police arrested Mr. Davis and have held him in detention since then. The driver of the second car, who wasn't named, escaped arrest.

---

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...149810014.html

Somehow I feel we're going to get the spin on this story in an upcoming film titled "The Bourne Infiltration" courtesy of Universal Pictures (based on true events!), where the dead bystander will most likely be carrying some sort of RPG...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

This is such a shit sandwich... we keep throwing gazillion of dollars to try to buy popularity, but a good chunk most likely ends up in the hands of ISI and corrupt politicians, and I'm pretty sure some end up funding the bad guys.
On the other hand, we can't just turn around and cut ties with them, or change their status to flat-out terrerist-harboring enemy (even tho technically they are), because of the nuke situation there.

---

It is very worrysome. We need them for a number of reasons, it is a "least bad" scenario any way we go.

Time to keep things good with India. Just in case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElNono

Somehow I feel we're going to get the spin on this story in an upcoming film titled "The Bourne Infiltration" courtesy of Universal Pictures (based on true events!), where the dead bystander will most likely be carrying some sort of RPG...

---

Dave Lindorff's piece says the motorcycle guys were lightly armed, did not fire on Davis, and received two wounds each in the back.

US Misinformation: International Law is Clear that Diplomatic Immunity is Not Absolute

The US media has confirmed what the US government is denying: Davis runs a private security firm. He is a military contractor. He is registered in Colorado as the owner of a security firm.” He says the questions that should be asked are: What was his real job in Lahore/Islamabad/Peshawar? And can a diplomats carry an unlicensed gun?”

This same friend also suggests that the indentity of the two Pakistani shooting victims -- according to a number of Pakistani reports, and to several in the US, including ABC News, they were working for Pakistani intelligence and were tailing Davis -- is a distraction. He says the real issues are what Davis was doing here and secondly, can a so-called “technical advisor”--the term the US State Department finally settled on to describe his job -- claim diplomatic immunity?

within the Convention which strip away any absolute blanket coverage under the guise of “diplomatic immunity” for visiting or appointed diplomats.

Fight the lies and misinformation; support truth! Please make a tax-deductible donation to Truthout today and keep real independent journalism strong.

Article 38 of the Vienna Convention 1961 states that except where additional privileges and immunities have been specifically granted by the host State, a diplomatic agent who is a national of or permanently resident in that State shall enjoy only immunity from jurisdiction, and inviolability, in respect of official acts performed in the exercise of his functions.

The above article clearly differentiates between an act carried out as part of his official duties and those done as a personal act. Any actions done personally and outside the ambit of official consular duties shall not be covered by “diplomatic immunity.”

Article 37 of the 1961 convention goes on to reinforce the above limitation on immunity by stating:

…Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties.

The question then becomes not whether or not those murdered were Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) agents, robbers or fruit sellers, but whether Davis did or did not have diplomatic immunity, but whether his fatal shooting of the two men was conducted while he was involved in performing his official duties.

http://www.truth-out.org/print/67730

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by in2deep

except in pre-Bush years USA was highly respected and looked up to for years and years around the world. So the comparison to the Yankees/Lakers is failed.

---

Really? Because wasn't there terrorists prior to that? You think we walked away from Vietnam with the same popularity as 30 years prior?

Excessively focused on popularity? That's our cooler girl.

Quote:

---

The American who fatally shot two men in Pakistan last month and who has been described publicly as a diplomat is a security contractor for the CIA who was part of a secret agency team operating out of a safe house in Lahore, U.S. officials said

---

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...022102801.html

Quote:

---

"Our security personnel around the world act in a support role providing security for American officials. They do not conduct foreign intelligence collection or covert operations. Any assertion to the contrary is flat wrong," said George Little, a spokesman for the CIA, without commenting specifically on Davis.






The Washington Post learned of Davis's CIA affiliation after his arrest but agreed not to publish the information at the request of senior U.S. intelligence officials, who cited concern for Davis's safety if his true employment status were disclosed.



Those officials withdrew the request Monday after other news organizations identified Davis as a CIA employee and after U.S. officials made a final attempt to prevail upon Pakistan's government to release Davis or move him to a safer facility.

---

ibid.

The CIA lied? I'm shocked.

The link to Lindorff implied as much. Don't you ever read?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickdsm

Really? Because wasn't there terrorists prior to that? You think we walked away from Vietnam with the same popularity as 30 years prior?

---

USA got their asses kicked in vietnam. If anything ppl around the world were feeling sorry for them, or laughing at them.

Quote:

---

A CIA contractor indicted earlier in the day on two murder charges in Pakistan was acquitted and released on Wednesday after a deal to pay "blood money" to the victims' families was reached, Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah told Reuters.

---

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,6305758.story

And the capital of Nebraska is Lincoln!!!!

You should maybe skip the Adderol in your coffee, Viva. It's an update, even if the result was predicted.

:lol you're so sensitive.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-co...ts-700x517.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6139/humpdaym.gif

(Raymond Davis, saved by sharia.)

I wonder what amount was paid to those families, being that's taxpayer money and all... I wonder if a FOIA request would fly...

About $700,000 to each family according to one report.

Pakistani sources say:

Quote:

---

WASHINGTON: Saudi Arabia is believed to have arranged the blood money that allowed CIA contractor Raymond Davis to go home after nearly two months in a Lahore jail, diplomatic sources told Dawn.

They said that the Saudis joined the efforts to resolve the dispute late last month after it became obvious that Davis`s continued incarceration could do an irreparable damage to US-Pakistan relations.

The Saudis agreed to pay the money, “at least for now”, to get Davis released, the sources said, but did not clarify if and how would the Saudis be reimbursed.

---

http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/18/blood...-s-arabia.html